Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition
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Now, you may may recall the story of how to trap autonomous cars by simply painting solid lines around them. Turns out, a singular traffic cone achieves the same result.
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@Rhywden "unalive" - today, I learned a new fancy word.
:unalive-it-with-fire:
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Personally prefer:
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@Dragoon Where did you get that Swedish healthcare t-shirt from?
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Driving on the D4 motorway today I realized just how bad it is: there is a bunch of ramps and bus stops with very short or even no join lanes at all. E.g.
See how short the join lanes are? And that's relatively busy on-ramp.
And this bus stop on the north-western side has basically no join lanes at all. With the south-east one being a bit better as it leads into the shoulder, which is a bit weird, but at least works as an join lane.
That's a motorway with a 130 km/h (~ 80 mph) speed limit. Does not look very safe.
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@Bulb depends on the bus.
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@Bulb there's a very short on-ramp not too far from where I live:
Same zoom as your link, the on-ramp is longer than on your pictures but note how narrow it is, in reality you can't use more than half of it maybe? you have to get in about where the lorry is at the latest. Also, yours has a hard shoulder if you fail to get on the road, the one on my picture hasn't. Though tbf, the road is limited to 90 km/h at this point.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Though tbf, the road is limited to 90 km/h at this point.
Well, on 90 km/h roads there are cross junctions with no join lanes and that's kinda normal.
But that one is a motorway with 130 km/h limit and there one would expect proper join lanes. And it's not like these were rare examples, it's most of the ramps that look like that on that road. It it was a motorroad, which have 110 km/h limit, I'd consider it, well, not ideal, but acceptable. But I really thought there is some standard for join lanes on motorways.
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@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
But I really thought there is some standard for join lanes on motorways.There probably is but it's either not a mandatory one or there are no fines / punishments attached for
not folliwing the guidelinesbeing a moronThe UK has those: https://fgsv-verlag.de/pub/media/pdf/202_E_PDF.v.pdf (Page 79), Texas has this: http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/rdw/ramps_and_direct_connections.htm#i1026149
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@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Well, on 90 km/h roads there are cross junctions with no join lanes and that's kinda normal.
Good point.
Though on normal cross junctions you start (if coming from the side road) at a stop (or at least, you should be expecting to have to stop), meaning that if there is traffic coming on the main road you can stop and wait. With the on-ramp in my picture, you are already driving at some speed on the on-ramp before you can see the traffic on the main road, and you're not ready to suddenly stop there if there is too much traffic.
In fact, this junction would probably feel safer if it was coming at a cross junction rather than an on-ramp!
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Well, on 90 km/h roads there are cross junctions with no join lanes and that's kinda normal.
Good point.
Though on normal cross junctions you start (if coming from the side road) at a stop (or at least, you should be expecting to have to stop), meaning that if there is traffic coming on the main road you can stop and wait. With the on-ramp in my picture, you are already driving at some speed on the on-ramp before you can see the traffic on the main road, and you're not ready to suddenly stop there if there is too much traffic.
In fact, this junction would probably feel safer if it was coming at a cross junction rather than an on-ramp!
Also depends on the amount of traffic. Over here in Germany, such roads with high traffic actually will have join lanes.
Example:
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@remi At 90 km/h, you probably can drive as fast on the ramp as on the main road, so you do not need the on ramp to match speed. However, if there is no gap you'd have to stop, and you then need a significantly larger gap since you would need to accelerate on the main road.
With a cross junction, you always need the larger gap, even if there is no stop sign.
So I'd say these no on ramp junctions are faster if there is little traffic, but quickly become just as bad as cross junctions if the main road is congested.
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@PleegWat said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
At 90 km/h, you probably can drive as fast on the ramp as on the main road, so you do not need the on ramp to match speed. However, if there is no gap you'd have to stop, and you then need a significantly larger gap since you would need to accelerate on the main road.
Yes, but my point is that doing this (stopping on the on-ramp) is very unusual, so if you're not aware of how short the on-ramp is, you're likely not prepared for it (or for the driver in front of you doing that), so it feels very dangerous. With a cross junction, you know that you (probably) will stop, and that you have to accelerate sharply to get on the main road. It's expected and thus feels less dangerous.
But as I said before, they may not be more/less dangerous, I have no idea.
(fake ETA: it's obvious that a real, long, on-ramp or a cross-junction with a join lane as in @Rhywden's example are less dangerous than a short on-ramp or a cross-junction with no join lane. The "more/less dangerous" here applies to "very short on-ramp" vs. "cross-junction with no join lane.")
This one is probably the result of a bad design at least 50 or 70 years ago, and given the layout of the road (the "highway" part immediately after the on-ramp is a bridge) it would be difficult to change without major works.
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@remi You should always be prepared to stop at the start of the on-ramp if there is no gap. But indeed, I'm sure nobody is.
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@PleegWat agreed, and agreed.
Then again, this on-ramp has been there since it was built in 1980/1981 (*) and it hasn't been changed since then, so I have to assume that in practice it isn't that dangerous (nor is it felt as such enough to provoke a change).
(*) I just lost an hour or so browsing historical aerial pictures of France on the geographical survey's website https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/, it is pretty amazing to see the changes from 1950-1990, which is when the major urbanisation happened.
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@Rhywden said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
There probably is but it's either not a mandatory one or there are no fines / punishments attached
A standard for specific road type would mean that if the road does not satisfy it, it won't get signed that way. That is, that it wouldn't get signed as motorway, but only as motorroad.
I suppose it's kinda historical here. It used to be signed only as motorroad, but back then both motorroad and motorway had 130 km/h limit. Then they decided to change it and reduce limit for motorroad to 110 km/h, which was posted with separate signs on most motorroads anyway. But not on this one, so I suspect they upgraded it even though it didn't really qualify to keep the speed limit that is not really appropriate, but was already there.
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@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
See how short the join lanes are?
Come on, what about no join lane at all? At a extremely busy motorway near Frankfurt (A5 at Nordwestkreuz Frankfurt):
Well, true, that ramp is from a secondary road from Eschborn town, and generally does not have much traffic here, but the motorway is really busy.
And there are warning signs regardning the danger of accidents, and there is a really big stop sign just at the join of the motorway, but there is no sign available telling the driver that a join lane is missing.
In with its famousSchilderwald
("traffic sign forest"), we do not have a sign for that...
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@BernieTheBernie said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
traffic sign forest
Parking sign forest in Montreal is so complicated, they needed to train AI to try to help people understand it
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So much innovation
Tesla’s Wiper Controls just got easier for owners in the newest software update, as the company has added the ability to control the arms from the steering wheel, making them more accessible.
Edit: those 2 last post are not in the right thread
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If you're in the business of posting Arkansas State Police traffic activity to YouTube, maybe you should drive the speed limit and make sure your own driver's license and insurance are in order.
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@TimeBandit said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Edit: those 2 last post are not in the right thread
Now they are!
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There's a commercial that's been running on MLB.tv commercial breaks the past few days, showing off Range Rover's driver convenience features. The fine print that's showing while they are using the backup warning system to not back off a cliff "Driver should not assume these features will correct errors of judgment in driving"
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@boomzilla Unfortunately it's not possible with many of the on-ramps out there.
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@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla Unfortunately it's not possible with many of the on-ramps out there.
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@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla Unfortunately it's not possible with many of the on-ramps out there.
Duh. Just accelerate more slowly
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@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I'm guessing this is just you shitposting, because that's neither a funny picture by itself nor really relevant to the earlier discussion about on ramps.
The issue with short on ramps is not that you don't have time to get up to speed (frankly with most modern cars and most speed limits, you don't need much road to get there!). The issue is that when you get along the motorway traffic, with a tiny ramp you must find a spot to merge immediately and if there's too much traffic (or a moron who blocks you because muh priority!) you don't have time/space to find another. The problem here is not the overall length of the ramp, it's the length of the part where you can merge.
This is actually worse if you get up to speed on the ramp before it runs next to the motorway, because then you get at the same speed as the traffic and are stuck next to one car. If you go slower (or faster...), the traffic moves past you, you can see several merging opportunities, pick one and accelerate (or brake) to match the speed difference.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
This is actually worse if you get up to speed on the ramp before it runs next to the motorway
… which you can't anyway, because the turn is too sharp for that. Especially on the short ramps I talked above you can't do more than around 40 km/h in the turn, trucks even less.
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@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
trucks even less.
And trucks are the biggest problem here. When fully loaded, compared to a passenger car they have to take turns slower, they are slower to accelerate, and they need a bigger gap to merge in to.
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@PleegWat OTOH, trucks are way more effective than cars at bullying their way through.
On such small on-ramps, I've seen several times trucks that just move onto the highway regardless of what's there, sometimes even laying on the horn as a big . Weirdly, cars get out of the way.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I'm guessing this is just you shitposting, because that's neither a funny picture by itself nor really relevant to the earlier discussion about on ramps.
Waaat?
The issue with short on ramps is not that you don't have time to get up to speed
Yeah. Those are by far the exception around here.
This is actually worse if you get up to speed on the ramp before it runs next to the motorway, because then you get at the same speed as the traffic and are stuck next to one car. If you go slower (or faster...), the traffic moves past you, you can see several merging opportunities, pick one and accelerate (or brake) to match the speed difference.
Sure, but you should still be going about the speed of traffic. Not 30mph slower.
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@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I see you've manage to graduate to "funny" if not "relevant."
The issue with short on ramps is not that you don't have time to get up to speed
Yeah. Those are by far the exception around here.
They also are here, or at least that is my opinion (I can't speak for the other) and not really what I was discussing earlier. So why did you bring that up?
Sure, but you should still be going about the speed of traffic. Not 30mph slower.
Yes, but again I don't see how that's relevant to the matter of the on ramp being too short to merge safely.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
They also are here, or at least that is my opinion (I can't speak for the other) and not really what I was discussing earlier. So why did you bring that up?
It was a funny driving anti-pattern. Duh. Plus kind of amusing that there was a recent subthread about on ramps.
Yes, but again I don't see how that's relevant to the matter of the on ramp being too short to merge safely.
And?
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@boomzilla wait, you actually thought your first meme was funny?
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@remi your saying you didn't?
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@boomzilla
I said so, didn't I?learn 2 read!11!
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@remi cranky today?
Seems like everyone missed their coffee.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla
I said so, didn't I?learn 2 read!11!Reading is forbidden on this forum.
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@topspin said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@remi cranky today?
Seems like everyone missed their coffee.
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@topspin said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@remi cranky today?
Not really, but not in the best of moods. I should be on holidays but since pets & family issues meant I had to cancel my week away, I've decided to work instead and take my holidays later.
There are better ways to start your day.
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So I was watching What's going on with shipping? about the ship fires that hit the news recently, and youtube pulled this related video (it is related; the fire in North Sea was almost certainly caused by an electric vehicle and the one in New York likely too).
… would fit in the warming thread too.
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