The thread of movie titles and absence of badges. In previous episodes, it was signs you're getting older, chiropractic vs. medicine, atheism vs. Mormonism and religion vs. science with no existentialism nor philosophy thrown in
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It kinda like Mormonism it was blatantly some guy making up shit if you do even some rudimentary research into it.
You really want to start that fight? I will make one point, then I'm done with you, asshole:
That "research" is worthless. 95% of what you find "disproving" Joseph Smith, Jr., is outright lies, the rest is ignorance. You can disprove anyone using lies and ignorance.
Don't bring religion into an argument about medicine you belgium-ing ass.
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Pretty much.
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Where I come from, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.
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Where I come from, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.
welcome to the internet. the rules are different here.
(much as i wish they weren't)
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Where I come from, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.
You are from reality also?
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Where I come from, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.
Considering:
- Joseph Smith has been dead for almost 200 years, so he can't defend himself.
- I don't have any idea which points @lucas thinks he was making up.
It's kinda hard to provide any proof. Also, it's obvious he's made up his mind, and arguing with people like him is fruitless. Plus, past experience has shown that even with multiple people on my side when arguing a technical issue, he won't budge.
Where's my motivation to argue with him?
One final point: proving religion is kind of counterproductive. Religion is about faith, not about proof.
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It's kinda hard to provide any proof.
Even if you could, you are going to lose almost every single one of us at: magic plates encoded in a secret language, seer stones, magic hats, magic underwear and polygamy.
Addendum: This is not an attack specifically about your religion. I have been described at times as a "militant atheist". I could come up with similar lists for any other religion.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06jF1EG8o-Q
Of course, no matter the religion, there's always some level of bullshit that people refuse to question
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I put something about "cans of worms" in the title and you came in looking for a snack, didn't you? Freaking hedgehogs.
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I put something about "cans of worms" in the title and you came in looking for a snack, didn't you? Freaking hedgehogs.
Actually, I posted that before seeing the updated title
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Back to the OP: When I was younger, limbs "falling asleep" was fairly infrequent. Now if I sit for too long there is a good chance I will stand up and stagger as though I am drunk from the "pins and needles" feeling. Like, several times a day.
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Well it really depends whether you think chiropractory is medicine, I dunno whether it is or isn't.
Plus, past experience has shown that even with multiple people on my side when arguing a technical issue, he won't budge.
Assuming you are talking about me, when has this happened?
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Assuming you are talking about me, when has this happened?
Maybe it was the drunken CSS debate?
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I apologized for that ... so that definitely doesn't count.
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I apologized for that
Yeah, but that does not make it any less funny for me when I think about it.
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I get the wobbly leg and limp around for about a minute.
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I'm pretty sure that falls under the 'creepy' category...
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@lucas said:
Assuming you are talking about me, when has this happened?
Maybe it was the drunken CSS debate?
Bingo.
I apologized for that ... so that definitely doesn't count.
Why not? We are communicating across the interwebz. How am I to know when you are drunk and unreasonable vs. sober and reasonable? To avoid frustration, it's probably safer to assume drunk and unreasonable and avoid arguments with you.
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"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never be sure about the source" --Abraham Lincoln
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I don't understand why you are getting so upset about me comparing another known charlatan that died approximately 200 years ago to another charlatan that created a "treatment" that can potentially be harmful to people and especially children.
If I am an asshat for that ... so be it.
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I don't understand why you are getting so upset about me comparing another known charlatan that died approximately 200 years ago to another charlatan that created a "treatment" that can potentially be harmful to people and especially children.
Since you couldn't figure it out on your own: I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Since I have to spell things out for you: I'm a Mormon.
As for your claim that Joseph Smith was a "known charlatan", have you considered that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the fastest growing religion in the world? That in the past 185 years it has gone from an official membership of 6 on the day it was legally setup in the US, to over 15 million worldwide? That's unprecedented for the teachings of a charlatan.
As for the comparison bit: Yes chiropractic can be harmful just like any medical treatment. You seem to focus on that. Maybe you can see why I get pissed when you make a comparison between someone I believe was a prophet and something you believe does nothing but harm. And before you go saying that Mormonism does harm, consider this:
- We teach our members to be self-sufficient.
- We teach service to others. We are always looking for ways to help others. In fact, when a natural disaster strikes, we are there, right next to the Red Cross. On a smaller scale, if you ever end up unable to make ends meet one month, you can talk to an LDS Bishop, and he will do what he can to help you out. In exchange all you would have to do is provide some service.
- We teach continual self improvement. Trying to make yourself better in any way you can, while lifting others up around you.
There's more I could list, but I hope you get my point. Given your view of chiropractic, I find it insulting that you would compare it to my religion. Coming from someone else, it probably wouldn't be an issue. I find it an indication of your ignorance that you claim Joseph Smith was a charlatan when you likely don't understand what we teach and believe. I bet that you focus mainly on the things that make us different and think "that's weird, how could anyone believe that", and then don't bother to learn or understand further.
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Even if you could, you are going to lose almost every single one of us at: magic plates encoded in a secret language, seer stones,
magic hats, magic underwear and polygamy.Edited for threshold of loss—magic underwear sounds awesome!
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Since you couldn't figure it out on your own: I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Since I have to spell things out for you: I'm a Mormon.
Well that would explain it.
As for your claim that Joseph Smith was a "known charlatan", have you considered that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the fastest growing religion in the world? That in the past 185 years it has gone from an official membership of 6 on the day it was legally setup in the US, to over 15 million worldwide? That's unprecedented for the teachings of a charlatan.
None of this proves that he wasn't a charlatan. It just means that a lot of people happen to believe in it.
As for the comparison bit: Yes chiropractic can be harmful just like any medical treatment. You seem to focus on that. Maybe you can see why I get pissed when you make a comparison between someone I believe was a prophet and something you believe does nothing but harm. And before you go saying that Mormonism does harm, consider this:
Medical Treatment has proven results, Chiropractory doesn't
When you claim he was a prophet, I have to ask the question ... is more believable that he was making a load of stuff up or was he actually talking to God? I would wager the former.
We teach our members to be self-sufficient.
We teach service to others. We are always looking for ways to help others. In fact, when a natural disaster strikes, we are there, right next to the Red Cross. On a smaller scale, if you ever end up unable to make ends meet one month, you can talk to an LDS Bishop, and he will do what he can to help you out. In exchange all you would have to do is provide some service.
We teach continual self improvement. Trying to make yourself better in any way you can, while lifting others up around you.That is all very nice, but doesn't mean I should respect Mormonism or any other religion. I don't believe in any of them.
There's more I could list, but I hope you get my point. Given your view of chiropractic, I find it insulting that you would compare it to my religion. Coming from someone else, it probably wouldn't be an issue. I find it an indication of your ignorance that you claim Joseph Smith was a charlatan when you likely don't understand what we teach and believe. I bet that you focus mainly on the things that make us different and think "that's weird, how could anyone believe that", and then don't bother to learn or understand further.
I honestly don't care that it insults you. I know that Mormonism has a history of homophobia, racism and other things I find repugnant as well promoting a set of irrational beliefs that are taught not be questioned. You can believe as you wish, it not my business to tell you what to believe, but don't tell me I can't question it.
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I know that
MormonismX has a history of homophobia, racism and other things I find repugnant as well promoting a set of irrational beliefs that are taught not be questioned.Substituting X, where X can be a surprising number of different things; feel free to provide 8 or 10 of your own!
Filed under: Hardly seems fair to single out Mormonism.
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Addendum: This is not an attack specifically about your religion. I have been described at times as a "militant atheist". I could come up with similar lists for any other religion.
interesting....
out of curiosity.....
what would you come up with for us Agnostics*
* for lack of a better word... agnostic is, i'll admit a bit overloaded as a term. i believe that i cannot know what, if any $diety exists and so choose to act as if they all exist, or possibly none of them.... or some combination of those two points. if i was to pick a religion to side with, from the point of view of how they act and organize themselves as a community i's have to side with the mormons. I mean i still don't believe in what they believe religiously, but i sure as hell very closely align to how they act towards the community, both their own community and the larger society community.
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That is all very nice, but doesn't mean I should respect Mormonism or any other religion. I don't believe in any of them.
That's a pretty dickish stance. I can respect the fact that people have beliefs while having no respect for the beliefs themselves
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the fastest growing religion in the world?
No, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world if you look at percentage of change in the world. If you go to raw numbers, Christianity and Catholicism would be just by birth rate alone.
Source: All of them outside of the LDS
We teach our members to be self-sufficient.
We teach service to others. We are always looking for ways to help others. In fact, when a natural disaster strikes, we are there, right next to the Red Cross. On a smaller scale, if you ever end up unable to make ends meet one month, you can talk to an LDS Bishop, and he will do what he can to help you out. In exchange all you would have to do is provide some service.
We teach continual self improvement. Trying to make yourself better in any way you can, while lifting others up around you.I don't believe that religion is necessary for these teachings. I know this is difficult to see as I assume that you were raised LDS, etc., but the vast majority of people see Mormonism as demonstrably false. It is one of the few religions to come about after written history was...a thing.
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interesting....
out of curiosity.....
what would you come up with for us Agnostics*
You are atheists with commitment issues. ;)
As can be illustrated by what you put in your small text:
i believe that i cannot know what, if any $diety exists and so choose to act as if they all exist, or possibly none of them.... or some combination of those two points.
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choose to act as if they all exist, or possibly none of them
It's like the ultimate form of Pascal's wager
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Just to clarify, I am quite happy for people to have beliefs, I am quite happy for people to practice them as far as I am concerned we all live and die by our own stupid ideas. But I think it is disingenuous to say that I respect their belief when I find it completely irrational.
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Agnostics
The question of whether there is or isn't a god is literally unanswerable. We don't have access to the information needed to verify or falsify the claim, so it is not a question which can be investigated scientifically. It's a moo point.
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Yes of course, but we were specifically talking about Mormonism.
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atheists with commitment issues
Atheists are just as deluded as theists. There is no scientific basis on which to rule "God" in or out. Agnositicism is the only viewpoint which is supported by the evidence we have available to us (i.e. none).
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Atheists are just as deluded as theists. There is no scientific basis on which to rule "God" in or out. Agnositicism is the only viewpoint which is supported by the evidence we have available to us (i.e. none).
Do you have the same view about Russell's Teapot?
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Mooooo.
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literally unanswerable
If there is/are a God or Gods, then he/she/it/they could prove it at any time. It's also possible that, depending on the properties of said God/s, that their existence could be provable. It's only in the case of no God that the answer is definitively unanswerable.
we were specifically talking about Mormonism
You were, at least. Everyone else wash talking abofut chiropractic.Atheists are just as deluded as theists. There is no scientific basis on which to rule "God" in or out. Agnositicism is the only viewpoint which is supported by the evidence we have available to us (i.e. none)
You're talking about strong atheism, the belief that there is definitely no higher power. Relatively few people go that far, not even Dawkins, the poster child for atheism. Most people who identify as atheist would change their view if given sufficient evidence, but on the basis of the known arguments for and against have decided that religions are extremely unlikely to be true
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As for your claim that Joseph Smith was a "known charlatan", have you considered that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the fastest growing religion in the world? That in the past 185 years it has gone from an official membership of 6 on the day it was legally setup in the US, to over 15 million worldwide? That's unprecedented for the teachings of a charlatan.
At one time, Roman Catholicism was the fastest growing religion in the world. So was Judaism, at one time. So was Islam, at one time. So was Hellenism, at one time. That proves nothing.
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Most people who identify as atheist would change their view if given sufficient evidence, but on the basis of the known arguments for and against have decided that religions are extremely unlikely to be true
That would be me.
So was Islam, at one time.
Still is, the LDS church just massages their data to make their movement seem more important.
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That's unprecedented for the teachings of a charlatan
Out of interest, how does that compare to the growth of Scientology (and if anyone seriously tries to defend that as not founded by a charlatan we'll be in for some fun)
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Out of interest, how does that compare to the growth of Scientology
How dare you offend my belief in space opera and tax breaks!!! Pistols at dawn!!
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I should respect Mormonism or any other religion
You should respect that other people do.
Don't be a blakey-level dick
then he/she/it/they could prove it at any time
As mentioned
it's about faith, not proof.
If people want to believe a God exists then so be it as long as they don't try to shove it in my face. That applies the other way around. I don't force my lack of belief on anyone.
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If people want to believe a God exists then so be it as long as they don't try to shove it in my face. That applies the other way around. I don't force my lack of belief on anyone.
Agreed, but I do enjoy discussing it if believers are up for it.
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Agreed - as long as neither side are going to be dicks about it.
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Russell's Teapot?
I ought to call myself an agnostic; but, for all practical purposes, I am an atheist.
Seems legit.
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Out of interest, how does that compare to the growth of Scientology
Serious answer: There are very close parallels. Scientologists kind of have a reputation for success. Many famous actors, businessmen, etc. have been Scientologists. A very successful businessman that I have as a client is one. That certainly does not make their religion true, but it does make me wonder if the relationship is correlation, causation or other?
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You are atheists with commitment issues
i've never really saw it that way.
to my mind:
Atheist believes that there is no $diety
where as an Agnostic believes there is insufficient data on the existence of $diety
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You should respect that other people do.
Why?
I don't go around preaching it, but I find it ridiculous and I have no problem saying it as equally as ridiculous as something else that is ridiculous.
I let my Islamic mates pray when they come to my house, but I still think it is ridiculous.
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to my mind:
Atheist believes that there is no $diety
To my mind: Atheists believe that there is absolutely no evidence of $DEITY and wonders why the hell this is still a discussion we are even having in 2015.
