How slow is Discourse on your mobile?
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I can tell you that at least 90% of the time the button is pushed, it is not us. (And it gets pushed a lot.) Same logic applies; that one was viewed as urgent, specifically crippling to performance. You can review GitHub history if you are curious.
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I do not believe I accused either you, nor Sam of updating the site to Daily-Builds. As I said in my post, can't stop dumb users from being dumb. If the Discourse Admin User Interface, does not warn users when they try to switch channels, I SUGGESTED(maybe more subtly than you noticed), that should be a new feature.
I am not claiming that fucking unicorns switched us to daily-builds and that's why shit is broken.
I am saying someone needs to own up to the FUBAR, and it would be (likely) beneficial for THE WHOLE DISCOURSE COMMUNITY, if the admin page WARNED users they might do something dumb. You may disagree.
That's fine.
I. DID. NOT. WILLINGLY. SIGN. UP. FOR. THIS.
I have to download, install and configure Chrome Canary, which BTW;(seems to confuse iOS on iPad Airs with Google Chrome)l versus a website that is managed beyond my control. I do not believe YOU. NOR SAM. Made this FUBAR. If you DID, just SAY SO!
Ce la vie!
Shit happens!
I get it! It's okay. And I don't think that Stripes quote means what you think it means. Seriously. Psycho goes off for like what, a minute and a half and Sarge basically says, "Shutup Francis." Bark is bigger than bite; yadayada.
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If the Discourse Admin User Interface, does not warn users when they try to switch channels, I SUGGESTED(maybe more subtly than you noticed), that should be a new feature.
This isn't an option in /admin. I cannot change channels. We've been on tests-passed (or equivalent) since the beginning.
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So we've been on ALPHA since the beginning? The...fu...BRB gotta drink more.
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I do wish we had team members more willing to run Firefox for diversity reasons but it's ... just not as good as Chrome.
Holy fucking shit ... seriously? This is exactly the same reason why loads of websites didn't work in anything but IE a decade ago. You should at least smoke test it.
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I am happy to move you to beta next beta release if you wish. let me know.
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I wish it was that easy, smoke testing webkit is trivial with phantom, smoke testing firefox is awkward and involves a lot of hackiness, not against adding it, its just way more awkward than phantom.
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That's never going to sink into Atwood's skull. His developers are perfect. It's the consumer's fault for assuming his public-facing repo contains a stable product.
I dunno. In my opinion this is not bad. As a team leader you should believe in your developers and defend them if neccessary. There is other stuff going wrong but this is one of the lesser problems.
I am happy to move you to beta next beta release if you wish. let me know.
As far as I know @PJH is on a "I am not updating for a few weeks"-test. If all updates are to be done manually we aren't getting updates currently.
If it is not much work, I (personally) would currently appreciate it. Especially if we can switch back whenever we want. (Or in this case ask you guys to switch us back)
This topic derailed in a lot of hate again. From both sides. I kinda like everybody better when they are snarky and have a new point. Half the stuff was just repeat business from 5 posts up.
Personally, I don't really mind most of the bugs if they are fixed fast enough and communicated in an acceptable manner. (And I know I might be the only one but that numbering thing does seem like a lower priority bug even though it does affect the user directly.
@codinghorror I appreaciate that you communitcate with us but while there are some members here who seem toxic, you appear the same way to us.
You started (back in the day) with the mindset "grumpy developers? These guys are my bread and butter" (not exact quote) and you reached the "This whole community is toxic"-mindset. And that shows.
You can't really blame us for updating that often. You COULD blame @PJH but that would be the completely wrong way to go about it. I am sure if one of you guys sent him a private message sayingHey, you guys seem to be bothered with bugs on our early release channel, you / we could put you on beta as that is a lot more stable, but only comes out weekly.
and he would either ask the community for you OR happily agree as this probably even takes work off his shoulders (You are in a way blaming him for clicking the update button that he is seeing...)
He does (in my opinion) a really good job "managing" this place and shifting the blame on him seems like the wrong approach.
As I told blakeyrat I don't mind you defending your developers or your product. But if you appear even slightly offensive while doing so the backlash on a community like this can be huge.
A while back (on the last huge TDWTF vs Discourse topic) @eviltrout (I think it was him if not my apologies!) actually shifted a hateful topic into almost civilized critisizing by asking what we would have done. As far as I remember even blakeyrat lost a lot of edge in that discussion. I won't tell you to do the same but maybe take it as a reference on how to communicate with us? Just don't make us think you believe us to be inferior to you guys. That our concerns don't matter or our feedback is taken less serious (I think you created one topic where you said "Hey, there is this bug and we are currently fixing it" or something and that was recieved very well). Because (as stated before) you are currently judging the whole community on the outcry of the loudest individuals. And that doesn't sit well with a lot of us.
Welp, that was a long rant. Going to mention @accalia because I hope the topic rerails into less hateful spewing and apparently I feel like bothering her!
TL;DR of this post: People are people who can it be that you and I can get along so arkwardly.... or something... I can't be bothered to look up lyrics after just a behemoth of a post.
Filed Under: @Sam, I searched for accalia in the searchbar, right clicked the post -> open in new tab, got the white page, refreshed, got thrown into the topic at a completely different position and had to reload again to see what I was looking for. Is there any progress on those two bugs? (white page and jumping after loading) |
I am currently replying to blakeyrat because he is the first one I quoted. Is there a wayto cancel the "Replying to"?
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Updates are not automatic. Someone is pushing a button in their web browser for each and every single individual update that occurs.
From the tone of @PJH's posts on the instances where an update occurs that he didn't kick off and no one documented in the Docker Updates thread, I get the impression that the /admin interface doesn't have a listing of who to blame for updates. Is that being tracked somewhere on the back end that he just hasn't found/doesn't have access to, or is it completely untracked? If tracking doesn't exist or isn't published to the /admin interface, could it be added? If it does exist, can you let @PJH know where to find it?
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or is it completely untracked?
Given my experience with my own installation (where I naturally have shell access as well,) there is no apparently visible record of who updated what and when. Especially since it can be done from the shell without going to /admin.
If we're moving to Beta, it's going to be "less of a problem" anyway.
Apparently.
Either way, at least I won't get the blame.
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Cool, which developers do we fire to make room for the 2 minimum testers you just prescribed?
Jeff Atwood.
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it's like saying "we hate bugs and we hate peope who write buggy software" (by the way, I suggest looking in the mirror every now and again) and then "sign us up for the buggiest release format you have, daily!"
At some level, I am saying "stop hitting yourself".
Others have pointed out that it wasn't our decision to track
latest, but it bears mention (yet again) that if it were up to a community vote, we could very well not be using your software at all. My vote (if I had one) would certainly be to switch to something else, and some of the former regulars have voted with their feet. And here you are again rubbing Alex's questionable decision in our noses.At some level, I am saying "Don't go away mad, just go away!"
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things we have not had time to work on yet.
Sam, a thought: if a lot of people despise a particular feature, you might consider prioritizing a fix higher than you would prefer to on your own. When you know you have a feature your customers hate, and you keep putting off fixing it, your customers get the feeling you don't care about them.
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"numbered lists are broken because you are following the existing Markdown spec"
Here's a thought: if following the Markdown spec makes your product broken, don't do it.
Again, this is just more buck-passing. I don't give a shit what the Markdown spec says. I don't care who wrote it, for what, why, or when. I just care that the product I was forced into using doesn't work.
Like I said above: there is no way that is not a bug. If it's in the spec, then it's a specced bug. Whee. But it's still a bug, it still sabotages the core functionality of your product (showing text I type to people), and it still should be fixed.
Stop passing the buck to scapegoats and FIX YOUR SHIT.
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It is tempting to say "so what software have YOU shipped that mattered to the world, ever" but that is the low road so I won't go there.
I worked for a couple of years on software that was responsible for $10M a month in revenue for a company you have probably heard of.
I also worked on this: http://www.defensetravel.osd.mil/
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I just know shit breaks and lately it has been useability breaking, not annoying breaking.
Jumping in late, didn't read whole thread... but, I'mma go back to, this is just the new standard for the web. I was using LinkedIn last week -- a giant, public company with probably a floor or two of testers -- and it kept crashing hard. The most basic, core functionality -- accept a connection -- and just kept getting, "sorry an internal error occurred." So, I switched to Chrome (from IE11), and it worked. Tried again in IE11, broken. HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT HAPPEN!?
Most of the cloud software I pay good money for (including Amazon S3) is in a perpetual breaking state. So, I do what every other user does... switch browsers, maybe submit a bug report, and if it still doesn't work, try tomorrow.
How is that not good enough for here?
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So the solution is to lower our standards?
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Pretty much; I just think everything built after 2010 is shitty.
My brand new S5 crashes. My TV crashes. My stove crashes... or used to, but they fixed it with a firmware update.
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Oh well shit. Why not just go back to throwing spears at elk and banging rocks together, then.
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Don't be ridiculous.
The real problem is JavaScript, and moreover, the JavaScriptization of everything. JavaScript is not just a terrible excuse for a programming language, it infects your mind, and in turn, anything that you develop. I'm sure the people who wrote the firmware used C or something, but they wrote JavaScript at one point, and that's why their firmware was a piece of shit. I mean seriously, how do you fuck up a stove?
Was the Code of the Replicators just Lazy FX, or insightful SciFi? I'm starting to think the latter.
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The real problem is JavaScript,
No.
the JavaScriptization of everything
Yes
JavaScript is not just a terrible excuse for a programming language, it infects your mind, and in turn, anything that you develop. I'm sure the people who wrote the firmware used C or something, but they wrote JavaScript at one point, and that's why their firmware was a piece of shit. I mean seriously, how do you fuck up a stove?
Sorry but I think you are being ridiculous. There is some legitimate complaints about JS, but while the JS community does come out with 50 different frameworks that kinda do the same thing, you get other genuinely useful things these days where I don't have to spend the better part of the day just trying to setup the environment before being actually start being productive which was the case with .NET until very recently.
There is a reason why things like Node/NPM are getting traction and seem sexy, because I can be productive straight away and they are actually nice to use. The last time I setup a dev machine with .NET it took me an evening just to get VS and SQL Server up and running ... Node ... 10 minutes.
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The real problem is JavaScript, and moreover, the JavaScriptization of everything.
So ummm... swap to something that isn't Javascript everywhere? Something that works at a reasonable speed on a mobile phone released THIS YEAR?
How is that not good enough for here?
Because that's not good enough anywhere even if it is all over the place.
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This thread is amazing.
@codinghorror said:"so what software have YOU shipped that mattered to the world, ever"
Nothing as (self) important as yours maybe, but my software fucking works so I think I'll take that as a victory ;)"numbered lists are broken because you are following the existing Markdown spec"
I'd be fired for that logic. Here we use a JS framework that "in theory" works across all browsers. We often get IE bugs in it though, that do not show up in other browsers. It's often my job to fix them.If I tried saying "it's the JS framework's fault, we just have to accept it until they fix it" I'd be laughed at, ordered to stfu and get on with the work, and if I didn't I'd be happily fired and replaced with someone who WOULD fix the bug.
The idea that your user's will accept broken functionality because long technical explanation of why it's totes not our fault! is insane. Literally insane. Even the technically literate users here don't accept it, the average web browser is just going to see a broken forum and wish they were using a working forum instead of Discourse.
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I'm curious to see if anyone can guess what that's a quote from.
This thread is the top result on google.
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My favorite is how numbered lists are our fault, somehow, even though the Markdown spec, such as it is, has defined numbered lists that was since 2004. No matter, the presence of spec Markdown lists is Discourse is not just a personal affront to your human decency but an indication that we a) suck at our jobs b) don't care c) personally hate you. None of those things are true.
We all thought the markdown spec was stupid. But at least here you had some cover for being stupid. Then you (yes, you personally) released a new standard for markdown. And you came to the same conclusion about numbered lists. Then you refused to follow your own spec.
It's all very confusing.
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It's ok, this is who you guys are, it is what you do.
I...don't understand the connection you're making here. Maybe you don't think we should take deaths caused by other people seriously?
Like racism, it's not exactly a great choice of hobby... but it's not illegal, so to each his own.
This is such a brain dead troll from a guy with a white avatar.
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The workflow for CSS changes of that magnitude is to open the site in each browser, click on some stuff. Why would anyone ever expect "open in new tab" to behave differently in rendering fonts?
Since you're not writing CSS, wouldn't it also be to look at the actual generated CSS to make sure it's doing what you thought it should do?
The bug was that something wasn't escaped and totally wrong (i.e., unintended) CSS was generated. Right?
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JavaScript is not just a terrible excuse for a programming language, it infects your mind, and in turn, anything that you develop.
.... As someone who writes NodeJS for fun, and does a fair bit of JS for work. and prides herself on code quality, and has yet to have a breaking compatibility bug amongst all supported browsers (FF3.5 and up, IE 8 and up, Chrome 10 and up, Safari 5.0 and up, and most mobile browsers)(also, it's only a matter of time before i do get a breaking bug... i'm still waiting for that shoe to drop) i think i might just have to take offense at that.
JS is a tool, and it can be a powerful tool. but it needs to be used in conjunction with other tools. I have always designed my sites so browsers can visit them with NoScript and get class A support. they won't get fancy ajaxy interface and their browser history will be spammed with link traversals that the JS would have avoided, but everything will work.
if JS is the only tool in your toolbox not only will you see everything as a nail to be hit with the JS hammer but you won't be able to write good JS code.
and good JS code can be written! You need to be careful, you need to be patient, and above all you need to test it to the very gates of Tartarus and back because of all the different implementation you'll have to support, but it can be done. and as a lone developer i'm going to tell you that you don't need a team of testers to do it. you just need to write your tests (Selenium is your friend for cross browser testing) and keep them up to date= and run them constantly so you find bugs in your tests and in your code before you commit.
Test your code and get the obvious bugs fixed before you commit you changes to any release track (even nightly!)
Recognize your users for their bug reports and treat them with respect. Even if you end up rejecting the bug report as WONTFIX or INVALID treat your bug reporter with respect. Telling them that they are doing it wrong is a BIG no-no.
Take responsibility for your product. Your code will not be perfect, it will eventually break. it might even break for reasons that are not under your control. You don't have to accept the blame if your product broke because of a change in one of your external dependencies, but you need to Accept responsibility. Your end users don't care who's to blame, they care that the product is broken for them and want it fixed. Treat them with respect and accept the responsibility.
This is true if you are a coder like @accalia at her job writing code for internal clients, or like @codinghorror and @sam and their team who are writing an open source forum software.
Our code, all of our code, will never be perfect. but we should make efforts to make it as good as we can, and there is no excuse for being rude to anyone who is bringing us a bug report, no matter how crazy their set up or how far removed from a supported setup they have. Their complaint is valid and you should treat it as such. Reject the bug report if warranted, but do not reject the bug reporter.
This post has been supported by Wall-o-Text industries. Supplying your walls made out of text needs since 1983CE
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Ok. So why did you select a forum that implements virtually everything in JavaScript, if you feel that way?
You keep saying words that have no relation to your actions.
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I'd be fired for that logic. Here we use a JS framework that "in theory" works across all browsers. We often get IE bugs in it though, that do not show up in other browsers. It's often my job to fix them.
If I tried saying "it's the JS framework's fault, we just have to accept it until they fix it" I'd be laughed at, ordered to stfu and get on with the work, and if I didn't I'd be happily fired and replaced with someone who WOULD fix the bug.
I can't even count how many times I've had to do workarounds in my code to make up for some stupid behavior in a third-party library.
The best story is when I found a bug where a library (it was industry-specific and an ABSOLUTE requirement we use it) was using HTTP GET on a web service call instead of POST, but sending too much data for GET to work. Vendor wouldn't fix it right away, said it would go on their TODO list but probably wouldn't be released for 2 - 3 years. Meanwhile I decompiled their library and fixed it but was thwarted by code signing and stupid obfuscation techniques that prevented me from deploying the modified library
I proceeded to get complaints about that issue nearly daily from customers, coworkers, and bosses, and there was absolutely nothing I could do with it except propose we spend a year and implement our own web service library from scratch and quit using the vendor's, but the bosses wouldn't go for it.
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I do wish we had team members more willing to run Firefox for diversity reasons but it's ... just not as good as Chrome
So you'll "dogfood" by using your forum for the unrelated purpose of bug tracking, but don't actually eat your own dogfood in terms of running a web app in all of the main browsers on a regular basis?
You're happy to shove your dogfood up your arse, but refuse to eat it out of the wrong bowl
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Selenium is your friend for cross browser testing
Hm, based on the stories I've heard at work, it only does browser spoofing?
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There is a reason why things like Node/NPM are getting traction and seem sexy, because I can be productive straight away and they are actually nice to use. The last time I setup a dev machine with .NET it took me an evening just to get VS and SQL Server up and running ... Node ... 10 minutes.
Yeah, right, I don't know if this is part of the JavaScriptization of everything, or something else... but this is a completely illegitimate complaint (and yet one I hear all the time). How is it a problem to spend a couple hours getting something set up (I'd estimate 2H to set up a .NET env), when you're going to spend hundreds or thousands of hours working on a project?
It's not, but it's the mindset. "Oh it's boring to run installers, do research, watch the little spinny do it's thing, I just want to type something in real quick, and BAM start hacking away."
Most professionals don't give a shit about this. A key part of doing one's job is doing undesirable things; that's why it's work. Only the hobbyists (i.e. you, who doesn't want to spend your evening time on things you don't enjoy), and the loud, vocal developer manchilds feel that "instant gratification" is a must-have feature of a platform.
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and good JS code can be written!
Yet, it rarely is. I blame the tool when most of it's users manage to fuckup using it.
http://i.imgur.com/xIxHNzt.jpg
Recognize your users for their bug reports and treat them with respect.
There's a fine line between "bug report" and "rant about how shitty every single thing you've ever built in your life is and how you generally fail as a human being". Not saying what side some of our community members were on... but the respect is a two-way street.
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Ok. So why did you select a forum that implements virtually everything in JavaScript, if you feel that way?
You keep saying words that have no relation to your actions.
Same reason I buy anything built after 2010; yeah, it's crashy and buggy and whatever, but I still prefer having my S5 over my old nokia (despite it never having a problem, ever).
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How is it a problem to spend a couple hours getting something set up (I'd estimate 2H to set up a .NET env), when you're going to spend hundreds or thousands of hours working on a project?
It's still a problem. It's not as big of a problem as other things maybe, but it still sucks. Plus, because it's stuff from Microsoft, you probably have to reboot several times. Sucky stuff sucks, even if it only sucks for the first tiny fraction of its useful life.
Except, since it's from Microsoft, there'll probably be automatic updates later in life that will also suck.
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There's a fine line between "bug report" and "rant about how shitty every single thing you've ever built in your life is and how you generally fail as a human being".
The line around here seems pretty clear: threads in the bugs category | threads where Jeff comes in and justifies the latter
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Most professionals don't give a shit about this. A key part of doing one's job is doing undesirable things; that's why it's work. Only the hobbyists (i.e. you, who doesn't want to spend your evening time on things you don't enjoy), and the loud, vocal developer manchilds feel that "instant gratification" is a must-have feature of a platform.
... so why did you pick forum software made by a development team that doesn't do "undesirable things" like actually testing their code?
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Plus, because it's stuff from Microsoft, you probably have to reboot several times. Sucky stuff sucks, even if it only sucks for the first tiny fraction of its useful life.
Sure, fine, but it's not nearly as terrible as the abomination known as Linux. Either way, from the biz perspective, I'm not paying you to play with your preferred toys -- deliver me actual bizness value, not a satisfaction of your intellectual curiosity.
why did you pick forum software made by a development team that doesn't do "undesirable things" like actually testing their code?
To be fair, they do test their code -- it's just not to the extent that y'all feel it should be tested. As disappointing as it may be, y'all are in the minority; most users don't give a shit about quality. See: everything built after 2010.
This is basically the High Fructose Corn Syrupization of everything.
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To be fair, they do test their code -- it's just not to the extent that y'all feel it should be tested. As disappointing as it may be, y'all are in the minority; most users don't give a shit about quality. See: everything built after 2010.
This is kind of like that scene in Contact where Tom Skerrit goes, "sorry, but that's just the way the world is." and Jodie Foster replies, "well, I always believed that the world was what we make it."
Yes the world sucks. But if I have the slightest influence on it, and it's quite possible I don't but whatever, I'm going to try and make it better. Or at least not delude myself into thinking the crap isn't crap. Which is what you seem to have done.
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Sure, fine, but it's not nearly as terrible as the abomination known as Linux.
Yes, that's true if you prefer to have a zillion updaters running and updating stuff. And like Updates reboots to take for goddamned ever.
Either way, from the biz perspective, I'm not paying you to play with your preferred toys -- deliver me actual bizness value, not a satisfaction of your intellectual curiosity.
I just hate sitting around watching stuff not do anything.
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I just hate sitting around watching stuff not do anything.
You prefer the Linux way of watching stuff do weird shit you don't understand?
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How much $$ is being spent (or lost) doing those 2 extra hours worth of setup per computer? If you have 100 developers with their computers on a 5 year replacement cycle, that's still 40 hours a year of additional expense. Even at the ye-olde-intern rate, that's a lot of extra pizzas...
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You prefer the Linux way of watching stuff do weird shit you don't understand?
I'm not familiar that, but if the duration would be similar for the simple install / update process I currently experience on Linux (download, decompress, replace) that I watch now, it would be better, because it still wouldn't hog my machine and prevent me from doing stuff. And even if I had to reboot, it would be a normal, reasonable reboot that wouldn't tease me with several iterations of bullshit counting up to 100%.
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How much $$ is being spent (or lost) doing those 2 extra hours worth of setup per computer? If you have 100 developers with their computers on a 5 year replacement cycle, that's still 40 hours a year of additional expense. Even at the ye-olde-intern rate, that's a lot of extra pizzas...
On a 5 year cycle it's 2 hours out of what, 1200 working days? That's nothing.
I've never (from memory) installed anything on my work machine which has rendered the computer unusable while it's installing - simply for a few minutes during a restart.
We lose more time to the fact it seems to take like 2 weeks to get a new starter a computer in the first place for no logical reason whatsoever.
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Yeah, right, I don't know if this is part of the JavaScriptization of everything, or something else... but this is a completely illegitimate complaint (and yet one I hear all the time). How is it a problem to spend a couple hours getting something set up (I'd estimate 2H to set up a .NET env), when you're going to spend hundreds or thousands of hours working on a project?
agreed. that's why i didn't use the argument. ease of setup can be important if you need to do it millions* of times, but if you need to do it that many times you are going to automate it so you do it once then click a button, and maybe fill in a text field the rest of the times you need it.
Only the hobbyists (i.e. you, who doesn't want to spend your evening time on things you don't enjoy), and the loud, vocal developer manchilds feel that "instant gratification" is a must-have feature of a platform.
not really my point there. I was more arguing against vilifying a language for the misuse it receives.If you are writing code for the client side web, the CORRECT language to do it in is Javascript. every modern browser supports it. but one also needs to design it so that failures are handled gracefully without destroying interactions. It is impossible to browser these forums with NoScript on and do anything more than read the comments because of design decisions made by CDCK.
by contrast the main site for thedailywtf.com can be browsed quote comfortably with noscript enabled. no degradation of experience at all.
if you are writing server side code then Javascript is very much likely to be the wrong language to program in. I do so on my own time because i'm having fun, i would not recommend it or endorse it for a business environment.
I can't give you a solid answer on what i would recommend for a business environment because the correct answer depends on so many factors, such as (but not limited to) what language is existing code written in? what is the target platform of the code? what compatibility restraints are in place because of business requirements? and so many more questions.
Yet, it rarely is. I blame the tool when most of it's users manage to fuckup using it.
no argument from me here. i see so much terrible JS code, and so few good JS code. Good JS can be done, but it is hard.
There's a fine line between "bug report" and "rant about how shitty every single thing you've ever built in your life is and how you generally fail as a human being". Not saying what side some of our community members were on... but the respect is a two-way street.
also no argument here. i may be missing context because i became active many months after our switch to discourse, but from where i sit it looks like this forum initially started filing respectful bug reports, and was frustrated when they were not always treated respectfully. from there it appears to have spiraled downhill to the point where there is little to no respect flowing in either direction.
I'd be happy to be shown i am wrong on that, by the way. I'd be ecstatic if the situation reversed and members of the community treated CDCK devs with respect and could expect respect in return (even if the bug is CLOSED- WONTFIX)
most users don't give a shit about quality. See: everything built after 2010.
now that hurts because it's true... (although i'd argue things really started going to crap about 1992 and just finally drove off the cliff in 2010)
*. exageration
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200 hours, across 100 computers. I get that "it's not a lot of time", but having worked for quite a while (8 years this February) on the SA side of the house, you can wind up with a lot of death by those paper cuts. Time isn't nearly as free as the PHB's make it out to be (even if we all are on
slaverysalary).
