Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.
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@dcon To be fair, it's a better name than "Modern".
Of course, they would've gotten (were?) sued over it. But still...
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@Erufael while we're on the topic of network stuff, I really don't like the windows 10 wireless network applet thing. I can't do shit from there except connect/disconnect. there's literally no information visible there, which means that when my home network starts appearing twice for some reason and I can't connect to one of them, I'm SOL.
the only action you can do from there is click on networks. right-clicking does the same thing. tf were they thinking. granted, 7's thing isn't great either, but this is supposed to be revolutionary shit and yet it seems like all they did was slap some pretty colours on it.
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@HardwareGeek said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
But not more stable, in my experience. I see far more "... is not responding" on my Win10 work laptop than I do on my home Win7 desktop. (That's not entirely true, but the unresponsive programs on my home machine are unresponsive for the well-known reason that they are very compute- and memory-intensive, and they're using more memory than the machine has, so they're swapping like mad (to spinning rust). They do respond eventually. OTOH, on my work laptop, I often see Office applications that I'm not even touching freeze for no apparent reason and have to be killed.) I'm not a big fan of the UI changes, but the (perception, at least, of) instability is my main reason for not updating my home machine.
So far the only "unstable" thing I see is on WebGL rendering, and regarding that Edge and Chrome hangs in their own subtle way (Edge hangs on some specific action and Chrome hangs on others) so I'm not sure whether it's bugs on the game websites or those browsers. That also puts me in strange position that I have to use two browsers to play the games, so if some actions don't work, I'd just switch browser until another one is hit.
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@cheong Well, as I said, I see instability with Office and other of MS's own applications. Right now, Edge is streaming music from one of my favorite radio stations, but I can't interact with it or any of the other Edge windows; the cursor in that window is a spinning blue circle.
Edit: As soon as I moved the mouse, the cursor changed back to normal. Still, the fact that it said it was busy for no good reason in the first place doesn't exactly shout "stability."
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@HardwareGeek said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@cheong Well, as I said, I see instability with Office and other of MS's own applications. Right now, Edge is streaming music from one of my favorite radio stations, but I can't interact with it or any of the other Edge windows; the cursor in that window is a spinning blue circle.
Edit: As soon as I moved the mouse, the cursor changed back to normal. Still, the fact that it went unresponsive in the first place doesn't exactly shout "stability."
Oh, yes. I experience the focus/z-index problem too. Just that because I frequently switching between applications, this glitch does not bother me much.
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@cheong If it's just a glitch, as in this case, I'm not too much bothered, either. However, I've seen so many solid application freezes, to the point that I can't even drag the window, that that's my default assumption when I see a spinning cursor that lasts more than a few seconds.
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@HardwareGeek Humm, strange. I mostly use BitComet, VS2015, SQL2012, IE11, Firefox, Chrome at home and not experienced something like that. Maybe that's caused by hardware/driver difference?
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@FrostCat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@dcon said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
A killer app someone could make? Turn off all live tiles.
Some people might google "turn off live tiles in Windows 10" and find this:
http://www.askvg.com/how-to-disable-live-tiles-feature-for-all-apps-in-windows-8-and-later/
This again shows an important difference between the philosophies of Windows and Linux.
In Linux you'd have to edit some obscure configuration file, but in Windows you can do it all through a nice graphical interface.
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@FrostCat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I hit F1 and typed Metro and got no results.
Did you try Trolleybus?
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@Zecc said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
In Linux you'd have to edit some obscure configuration file, but in Windows you can do it all through a nice graphical interface.
Unless you can't, which is pretty common in both systems.
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@HardwareGeek said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
they're swapping like mad (to spinning rust)
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@bb36e said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I can't do shit from there except connect/disconnect
You can't even do that for VPN connections. Oh, they are listed, but clicking on them opens the "Connections" window thing. Because adding a "Connect" button would be too hard. You know, like the one they didn't add to wireless networks either... wait...
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@FrostCat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@dcon said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
A killer app someone could make? Turn off all live tiles.
Some people might google "turn off live tiles in Windows 10" and find this:
http://www.askvg.com/how-to-disable-live-tiles-feature-for-all-apps-in-windows-8-and-later/
For what I want, that's overkill. I want to disable all to start and selectively turn back on only a few.
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@dcon Ah, so you want the most difficult use case possible.
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@FrostCat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@dcon Ah, so you want the most difficult use case possible.
Of course. What good would I be as a developer if I didn't push those edge cases!
Sometimes I feel like I have a special power of finding broken edge cases. Too bad that doesn't apply to my own code.
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@dcon It doesn't apply to anyone's own code. That's why QA departments and fuzz testing are things.
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@sloosecannon said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Which is much less present in 10 than in previous versions?
There isn't as MUCH shit on your sandwich than the last one I gave you. Be grateful.
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@cheong said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
BitComet
Have you tried installing Comet Cursor instead?
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@sloosecannon said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
it's a better name than "Modern".
It's all about the typography, apparently. Therefore, it clearly needs more ligatures. Not better ones, just more of them. I vote we start a push to style "Modern" in such a way that you can't tell it apart from "Modem".
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@Lorne-Kates said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Have you tried installing Comet Cursor instead?
http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/apple.media/BonziBUDDYApe.png
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@flabdablet
No, let's just start pronouncing all words with rn cluster as if they were spelled with an m!
Future wikipedia: "In English typography, the rn digraph is a typographic variant of the letter m used in words that had a rhotic approximant followed by a alveolar nasal in English of the early 21st century. "
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"This merger is known as the damn-darn merger."
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Man, if only other things were natively supported.
Maybe then we might not get BSODs for IRQ_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL...
Like the camera of my tablet. BSOD every time I either accidentally flip open the corner of the protective sleeve that covers the rear camera (which starts the Camera app) or if I go into Skype video settings...
EDIT: add a letter 't' somewhere.
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@OffByOne said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Man, if only other things were natively supported.
Maybe then we might not get BSODs for IRQ_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL...
Like the camera of my table.
Your wooden table has a mounted camera? I envy you!
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@Lorne-Kates said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Have you tried installing Comet Cursor instead?
No. That thing breaks a lot of Windows Updates and SPs, makes those machines unbootable after installed the updates.
I won't ever try to install that for machines for my daily use.
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@Tsaukpaetra Reporting back: I was able to mount the system image as you suggested and recover my files, so thanks for that - there were more than I expected that I didn't already have at work, including one of my favourite old tapes for which the original has been destroyed. I might even have been tempted to do the backup-and-restore dance to get that one back, but I'm certainly glad I didn't have to.
Also, I found out why my files disappeared and it wasn't really the fault of the Windows 10 upgrade. Rather, it was from a few months ago when I'd previously had to do a clean install of Windows 7 on top of my existing one. The files had been moved into Windows.old at that point, and while I'd pulled out the documents first thing, I'd obviously neglected to do the music ones. The Win10 upgrade cleared out the existing Windows.old to put my Win7 installation there, so that's when the files disappeared. And yes, it would have been possible to have the upgrade preserve Windows.old in any of several ways but I can't really blame Microsoft for not doing it.
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@Scarlet_Manuka said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I can't really blame Microsoft for not doing it.
Oh, I can. If they can automatically rename
foo.doc
tofoo (2).doc
when you copy and paste a file into its own folder, why can't they back up toWindows.old (2)
ifWindows.old
already exists before they start?Something something usability something.
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@FrostCat WOMM:
Pretty fresh Windows 10 AU install.
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@Erufael Oh, that. Yeah but are they actually gone, or just hidden, if you know what I mean. If you undid whatever you did, I bet you won't get a blank area, but the tiles that were there will return.
Dunno where the setting is to try it out myself, and I don't want to take the chance on losing the tiles I've set up, either, so I'm not going to try it. Me, I prefer the tiles there to icons on the desktop or task bar.
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@FrostCat Except I didn't change any settings. This is how it's always been since the installation. So I have no idea.
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@Erufael Funky--I always had a tile section. I even widened it out to fit in MOAR TILES!!1
Then I nuked most of the built-in ones.
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@FrostCat You can also narrow it to completely eliminate the tiles. Not sure how a fresh installation started out that way though.
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@LB_ said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
You can also narrow it to completely eliminate the tiles.
I just tried and couldn't get it to go below one three-tile-wide column.
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@FrostCat Oh, huh, I could have sworn that worked. My bad. Now I'm confused...
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@flabdablet said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@Scarlet_Manuka said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I can't really blame Microsoft for not doing it.
why can't they back up to
Windows.old (2)
ifWindows.old
already exists before they start?Yeah, they could. But which case is more likely: (i) user has Windows.old present from the last time they upgraded, probably years ago, and they don't need anything there and it's just taking up space for no good reason; or (ii) user has Windows.old from recently doing a clean install and has forgotten to transfer over all their files?
In the end it comes down to a tradeoff between high risk of minor consequences and low risk of more significant consequences. Having important files left in Windows.old is a bit like storing email in your Deleted Items folder - it's going to come back and bite you as soon as something decides to do a cleanup.
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@Scarlet_Manuka I've never done an upgrade except for 8.1 => 10, but that one deleted the Windows.old folder after a month.
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@flabdablet said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
why can't they back up to Windows.old (2)old DO NOT USE current use this one if Windows.old already exists
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@Jaloopa If I'd been designing it, old installations would have gone on this progression:
Windows -> Windows.old -> Windows.older -> Windows.oldest
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@Scarlet_Manuka Or if you really care, you can rename the folders Windows.old.WinXP, Windows.old.Vista, Windows.old.Win7 and so on immediately after the upgrade, so you can be sure that the upgrade process will not meddle with it.
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@Magus said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@Scarlet_Manuka said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
My Music, My Pictures, or My Videos
What are those? Was this PC running XP originally?
I have a Windows 10 computer that originally ran Windows 8 and it has hidden, read-only, unopenable Documents and Settings, My Documents, My Pictures, and so on.
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@ben_lubar said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I have a Windows 10 computer that originally ran Windows 8 and it has hidden, read-only, unopenable Documents and Settings, My Documents, My Pictures, and so on.
Either you need to "take ownership" of the folders, or you have BitLocker enabled but forgot to "suspend" it before upgrade. When in "suspend" mode, it leaved the encryption key in clear text on the system drive, so the newly installed OS can pick it up and use it.
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@cheong said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Either you need to "take ownership" of the folders
No. You want to leave those bastards strictly alone. They're there for backwards compatibility, the permissions they have are in place for good and sufficient reasons, and if you mess with them you'll break shit.
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@flabdablet If you're doing an "upgrade" (high probability on this option because it's Win8), the old system is no longer to be used, I doubt it'd matter.
If you're doing side-by-side install of Win10 to Win8, just boot to Win8 and copy/move the file to common places, and you should not need to ask this question.
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@cheong they're there for backwards compatibility with old applications that hardcoded My Documents. It's nothing to do with using Win8, especially since the "new" locations have been the right ones since Vista
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@cheong said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
If you're doing an "upgrade" (high probability on this option because it's Win8), the old system is no longer to be used, I doubt it'd matter.
Yes it would. The folders in question are actually junctions aka directory symbolic links to other folders elsewhere with more sensible names, and exist solely to allow backwards-compatible access to files inside those folders via their XP-era default pathnames.
If you remove the Deny Read for Everyone NTFS ACE that all those junctions have by default, you end up with a directory tree that isn't a tree any more. It has loops in it, and recursive copies of folders inside it don't terminate until the destination runs out of space.
Leaving the Deny Read stuff in place doesn't mean you're missing out on the contents of the folders in question, since all of them really are just aliases for other folders you do have completely normal access to.
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@ben_lubar said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I have a Windows 10 computer that originally ran Windows 8 and it has hidden, read-only, unopenable Documents and Settings, My Documents, My Pictures, and so on.
Are these some double-extra-snowflake folders, or the standard ones that've been around since 8 or 7, that are there to handle broken file-traversal programs like backups? (that is, "My Documents", which is just a junction on "Documents"?) If they bother you, you should be able to take ownership of them and delete them.
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@flabdablet Humm, junctions are not hard link. The original location's security attributes would still be checked so there's no such problem.
Then again I just recognized that I have misread the original problem, that what he refered to was read as Users, Documents and so on.
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@cheong said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Humm, junctions are not hard link. The original location's security attributes would still be checked so there's no such problem.
I think you're still missing the point.
No, junctions are not hard links. As I said, they function more like symlinks.
On Unix, permissions set on symlinks themselves are always ignored; attempts to manipulate the permissions for a symlink instead manipulate those of its target. However, on Windows a junction can have its own NTFS access control list, and Windows will evaluate that before following (or perhaps deciding not to follow) the link.
The NTFS ACLs for all of the backward-compatibility junctions we're talking about here ("My Documents", "My Pictures", "Application Data", "Local Settings" and so forth) all include a Deny Read for Everyone access control entry. For junctions, which Windows knows can only link to directories, this translates to a prohibition on listing the contents of their targets. It does not prevent traversing the target directories as pathname components (if it did, the junctions' existence would be entirely pointless).
Some of these junctions link to the directory in which they themselves occur; others link to parents or grandparents. If you mess with the junction permissions to allow enumerating - as opposed to merely accessing - the contents of the directories they link to, you end up with a directory "tree" that isn't a tree any more and causes infinite recursion when a tree walk is attempted on it.
Getting rid of these junctions and modifying their permissions both cause more problems than they solve. Just leave them alone.
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@flabdablet said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Getting rid of these junctions and modifying their permissions both cause more problems than they solve. Just leave them alone.
true, true.
my advice would be:
Leave them alone, they're not hurting you. Buuuuut..... if you insist on mucking about with them then i ain't helping you fix your computer problems if and when that plan goes bad for you. So, y'know, just don't mess with them, yeah?
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And now we'll have hardware that doesn't run on windows 7 and 8