Safe Space
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You seem to imply *only white people do it.
I was talking about a guy I worked with that was from india was sponsored by BT and now considers himself English.
His English is better than mine. He supports England in the cricket etc. etc.
My Pakistani mate which is my best friend called him a "coconut" meaning he is "brown on the outside, whiteman on the inside". I was like WTF ... now I think Coconut instead of "integrated".
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@error said in Safe Space:
@fbmac said in Safe Space:
@lucas1 said in Safe Space:
"Seriously I am not going to give bullshit estimates"
Why do you think we carry a d20 di
ce? To play RPG?FTFM
Filed under: It was more for me than for you.
"I would like to write a governing document. Do I need to roll a Constitution check?"
Filed under: Little did we know that our days of playing D&D as a group were numbered.
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@lucas1 My husband has been called an "Oreo", meaning the same thing: black outside, white inside.
I jokingly referred to myself as one of these in response:
https://themovetoamerica.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/white-fudge-oreo-3.jpg
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@blakeyrat Well I heard today that other people were pissed off for some of the same reasons I was and were thinking of leaving.
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@AyGeePlus No, that's not what I mean. They might be accurate - as long as you're only talking about groups. Like statistics, they stop making sense when you try to apply them to each individual in said group.
Imagine that someone says the average human has 4.998 fingers on each hands. I have 5 on each. Should I get offended now? Was that person calling me, personally, a, uh... 4.998-finger?
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@Yamikuronue That gave me a good chuckle.
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@fbmac said in Safe Space:
I had a boss capable of making people cry in a corner once. I will never work for someone like this again.
I worked at a place where people would routinely cry at their desks, according to the newspaper.
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Real conversation I had:
give me an estimation for it
I have no idea how to do it, I'll have to find out
I need an estimation anyway
uh, ok, one month them
that's too much, you can't just overestimate it
one week?
fineThe task took much longer than one week
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@Yamikuronue said in Safe Space:
@lucas1 My husband has been called an "Oreo", meaning the same thing: black outside, white inside.
I jokingly referred to myself as one of these in response:
https://themovetoamerica.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/white-fudge-oreo-3.jpg
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@fbmac The problem is that in my situation I would have been said to be slow or some shit. This has happened before, I estimated something as a few minutes as it seemed trivial and I was presented with WTF.
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@fbmac My Portuguese is too rusty to think of a smart-alec comment to say "when pigs fly"
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I have officially lost you. "Millennials are entitled, but not any millennial in particular, and in my experience generation X or whatever is much worse."
I'm not sure why you'd talk about millennials being entitled anyway. It's not true in your experience, there isn't real data on it, and millennials hate it either because a) it's true and they are sad about it b) baby boomers love to talk about millennials being 'entitled' instead of all the shit they broke and left to later generations.
There was an article in the new york times complaining about how millennials don't buy houses/settle down at the same rates previous generations did (something something "afraid of commitment"). Real wages are flat, and student debt is up, do the math.
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@theBread Saint never's day?
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@AyGeePlus When you see some teens losing their fucking shite because a gay conservative is on campus ... then yes he is right ... but he is also recognising that this doesn't reply to everyone. I dunno why this is hard to understand.
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@AyGeePlus I wasn't even talking about millenials being entitled in the first place. Someone else made a fairly common remark about special snowflakes, @aliceif took offense, and then I took offense at her taking offense.
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@blek It's offendees all the way down.
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@blek said in Safe Space:
Someone else made a fairly common remark about special snowflakes, @aliceif took offense, and then I took offense at her taking offense.
My neighbors got mad at me when I took offense, because they now have an unobstructed view of my yard.
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@blek said in Safe Space:
then I took offense at her taking offense.
I'll agree not to be offended by your offense if you agree not to be offended by @aliceif's offence. :recursion:
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@AyGeePlus Sorry, it's who I am now.
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@blek
More seriously where do you live that you don't get an endless parade of NYT articles sent to you by relatives pointing out the deficiencies in my generation?That only takes like 18 months to get really really old. It's endless, it's insipid, it's self-serving and it drives me up the wall.
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@Yamikuronue said in Safe Space:
Oreo
My wife apparently was "trop blanc" because she arrived only a few minutes late.
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@AyGeePlus said in Safe Space:
relatives pointing out the deficiencies in my generation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN5zw04WxCc
Filed under: I actually can't stand this song, but I like some of their others.
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@error Fuck that generation in particular.
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@AyGeePlus in central/eastern Europe (depends who you ask). Most of the older people in my extended family don't know any English at all... and don't really use any electronics more advanced than a TV, either. Plus I don't think any of my relatives have my e-mail address or know what my (fake) facebook name is.
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@lucas1 said in Safe Space:
@cartman82 that isn't really fair. I didn't go off on one. I said "without doing some analysis and looking at the code I can evaluate it. Anything I would provide is as an estimate would be bullshit".
The reply I got was "you shouldn't need to look at the code to make an estimate" and at that point instead of going off in one I actually just sat down.Maybe, but it's funnier to imagine you as a raging asshole, throwing a temper tantrum during the meeting.
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@AyGeePlus said in Safe Space:
@error Fuck that generation in particular.
You're bitching about basically the same thing they were bitching about. It's all a circle.
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@error Eh. Their incessant complaining is kind of to be expected, they're old and cranky now.
Fuck that generation in particular for all the fucked up shit they let happen. Also the weird monopoly on christmas music they have.
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@AyGeePlus said in Safe Space:
Also the weird monopoly on christmas music they have.
Instead of XKCD, I'll post this:
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@cartman82 I just say one liners "That is fucking stupid".
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@lucas1 TRWTF is Scrum estimates.
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@MrL On our Scrum team, we do points and hours.
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@MrL said in Safe Space:
@lolwhat said in Safe Space:
My team and I actually went through Agile training recently. At least for us, story points are meant to estimate difficulty rather than amount of time something will take. We use the Fibonacci scale for this, and a thirteen-point story is something that we estimate would take our entire team a full sprint (two weeks for us) to be designed, developed and tested.
Let me repeat myself: SPs are not hours or days, but in fact they are, you're just not allowed to say that aloud.
And if you don't make the commitment - oh, boy. Then we collectively navel gaze about whether we committed for too much or too little.
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@fbmac Scum
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@lucas1 Mafia game threads are
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@blek said in Safe Space:
Imagine that someone says the average human has 4.998 fingers on each hands. I have 5 on each.
I only have four fingers on each. And a thumb on each.
Did you mean digits?
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@blek said in Safe Space:
Normal people understand how generalizations work - they're shorthands, because writing "millenials are special snowflakes" is shorter than "a certain group of millenials, but of course not all of them, seem to be narcissistic". When people talk about a group, they don't mean that every single member of said group is identical to every other member of said group - especially if the only real unifying characteristic is the time period in which these people were born.
Right, but calling them Generation Snowflake implies that it's significantly more common than in previous generations. I think it's more that people between about 16 and 25 have always had a tendency to be narcissistic, entitled, whatever. They haven't had the experience in real life to realise that it's quite hard and your parents can't always look after you.
Maybe that goes on a bit longer now than it used to when boys were sent to work down t'pit at 8, but that's because of a more prosperous, less harsh world. That's not a bad thing, it's good that kids don't have to grow up and lose their childhood. It's good that people, on average, have an easier life than their parents. Isn't that what their parents worked for?
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@Jaloopa Again: oh my god, who gives a shit, this is the goddamn mother of all first world problems. "Someone on the internet made an innocent generalization about a group of a billion people! Call the whaambulance!"
And on top of that - is it really not significantly more common? Just the other day I read somewhere that over 100 college campuses in the US now have
thought policebias response teams. Jesus, I hear """adult""" coloring books are a thing now, and apparently pretty popular. Were the earlier generations doing that too? And I really hope nobody's parents worked for a world where their kids never grow up. I mean, that's just unhealthy.
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@fbmac said in Safe Space:
TRWTF is Scrum
Why āAgileā and especially Scrum are terrible
Note: My first novel, Farisaās Crossing, will be released in spring 2022. Agility is a good thing, no doubt, and the Agile Manifesto isnāt unreasonable. Compared to a straw-man practiceā¦
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Compared to a straw-man practice called āWaterfallā
I immediately deducted about 10 legitimacy points. This guy's never seen Waterfall? Really? Then he's not qualified to generalize outside of the startup culture he's clearly concerned with.
Good engineers want to work in engineer-driven firms where they will be calling shots regarding what gets worked on
Yeah, and I want a pony. Outside of tech companies, this is a pipe dream.
The problem with Agileās two-week iterations (or āsprintsā) and user stories is that there is no exit strategy
This, however, is legitimate. Unfortunately, what my company is discovering is that if you give a department access to a developer, there's no end to the amount of work they'll find for them. Marketing will gladly release a change every week from now until eternity, even in Waterfall; if you force them into a project structure, they'll just save up hundreds of small tweaks and shove out a project every quarter instead. That's sort of how people think.
I hate estimates
Grow up. People always want to know when things are going to be done.
Anything thatās actually worth doing has a non-zero chance of failure
And corporations tend to become more risk-averse as they grow. It's a balance that needs to be managed, and I'm having trouble seeing how Agile vs non-Agile plays into that so much as corporate culture. Much like the seating plan listed above, he seems to be attacking hipster trends that people who like Agile also like, but which are not really part of Agile.
programmers expect their career growth to be taken seriously and will leave if itās not
That's fair, but again, I feel like this is a result of hipsters in startups dictating what culture should be.
Constant surveillance into oneās work indicates a lack of trust and low social status
TIL hiding what you're working on and being vague and refusing to give status reports makes you an Alpha Male I guess?
There's some good points in the article, but my god does he have a myopic view of the world, you know?
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@Yamikuronue said in Safe Space:
Good engineers want to work in engineer-driven firms where they will be calling shots regarding what gets worked on
Yeah, and I want a pony. Outside of tech companies, this is a pipe dream.
And of course none of us actually works at a tech company, amirite?
This, however, is legitimate. Unfortunately, what my company is discovering is that if you give a department access to a developer, there's no end to the amount of work they'll find for them. Marketing will gladly release a change every week from now until eternity, even in Waterfall; if you force them into a project structure, they'll just save up hundreds of small tweaks and shove out a project every quarter instead. That's sort of how people think.
Yes, the idea of "continual progress" as an inevitable thing that happens and is supposed to happen is a cornerstone of Western culture. Why is this a bad thing?
Grow up. People always want to know when things are going to be done.
IME it's the ones who don't recognize the concept (or the implications) of "unknown unknowns" who are the most in need of growing up.
TIL hiding what you're working on and being vague and refusing to give status reports makes you an Alpha Male I guess?
Where did he ever say anything about hiding what you're working on? Or is this criticism coming from the same place as the idea of "if you have nothing to hide than you have nothing to fear from invasive surveillance"?
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@masonwheeler said in Safe Space:
IME it's the ones who don't recognize the concept (or the implications) of "unknown unknowns" who are the most in need of growing up.
You've never tried to pry an estimate out of someone like that guy, I suppose. It's maddening. "Are we talking days or weeks?" "I don't know." "Can we rule out months?" "I don't know." "It's a goddamn form, just give me something to work with here." "It'll be done when it's done." Estimates can be wrong, unknown unknowns can and will pop up to derail the best laid plans, but it's the youngest, most arrogant devs who insist that estimates are the death of productivity IME.
We started this thread talking about "special snowflakes" -- this isn't any different. "I can't possibly estimate my work, it's far too complex to be described in terms of time."
@masonwheeler said in Safe Space:
Where did he ever say anything about hiding what you're working on?
This BS:
Constant surveillance into oneās work indicates a lack of trust and low social status
Therefore the opposite, nobody having insight into what you're working on at all, makes you high status, right?
It's work. You're held accountable for what you're doing. Devs would love a greenfield where they can work at their own pace, only work on projects they feel like working on, and take as long as they want to play around with new toys before settling down to decide on the architecture, but someone's paying for all that playing around, and eventually you've got to be held accountable for where their money went in the real world. Again, it's snowflake mentality: "I can't possibly be asked to explain what I'm working on, my work is far too delicate for that nonsense."
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@Yamikuronue said in Safe Space:
You've never tried to pry an estimate out of someone like that guy, I suppose. It's maddening. "Are we talking days or weeks?" "I don't know." "Can we rule out months?" "I don't know."
He's specifically criticizing a system which, in his own words, is overly focused on "atomized, feature-level" work. So we can rule out weeks and months right away. Have you ever been inside the Scrum system? You're constantly, incessantly being asked how long it will take you to do X in some system before you've even looked at it.
Will it take 4 hours? 8? 12? How should I know?!? Why are you asking me? I've never so much as touched this part of the codebase in my life. Out of all the people in this meeting, I'm the one who knows the least about it! Do not ask me for an estimate and expect to get any meaningful response!
@masonwheeler said in Safe Space:
Where did he ever say anything about hiding what you're working on?
This BS:
Constant surveillance into oneās work indicates a lack of trust and low social status
Therefore the opposite, nobody having insight into what you're working on at all, makes you high status, right?
I could say yes, pretty much by definition--how much insight do you have into specifically what the Big Boss is working on from day to day?--but that would be going well outside the bounds of what we're actually discussing here. So instead, I'll simply say that there is such a thing as nuance, and those who fail to familiarize themselves with it end up looking really silly to those that do.
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@masonwheeler said in Safe Space:
-how much insight do you have into specifically what the Big Boss is working on from day to day?
Me? none. But the Partner group has plenty. Everyone's accountable to someone, unless you're the owner, at which point you have to be accountable to yourself and (to some extent) the government.
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@Yamikuronue said in Safe Space:
I hate estimates
Grow up. People always want to know when things are going to be done.
They ain't gonna get a detailed estimate until there are detailed requirements. You can't just drive up to a mechanic and say, "There's something wrong with my car. How long is it going to take to fix and how much will it cost?" The mechanic has to take a look under the hood first. Mechanics also have the advantage of operating on repeatable, established procedures, while developers are almost always doing something for the first time.
Constant surveillance into oneās work indicates a lack of trust and low social status
TIL hiding what you're working on and being vague and refusing to give status reports makes you an Alpha Male I guess?
There's a difference between not giving status reports and being frustrated with micromanagement. I left a job after a year of dealing with a manager who requested status reports about every 15-30 minutes.
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@Groaner said in Safe Space:
They ain't gonna get a detailed estimate until there are detailed requirements.
And that's 100% fair! But if they give you detailed requirements, and you decline to estimate on principle because "estimates are bad" and "it'll be done when it's done", you're a grade-A entitled asshole.
@Groaner said in Safe Space:
There's a difference between not giving status reports and being frustrated with micromanagement.
Agreed. But micromanagement happens in any process. People I've talked to who talk like this guy are people who complain that updating the status of a Jira ticket to reflect what you're working on is "micromanagement" and "too much overhead" and "fuck Jira anyway, amiright? I'll get it all done when it's done."
I've been frustrated by people who talk like that guy far too much, so maybe I'm overly critical, but the point is that micromanagement isn't necessarily the point of agile. Transparency is the point of agile. And the fearmongering "this is just like government surveillance guys" attitude speaks to a juvenile understanding of what work is.
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@Yamikuronue said in Safe Space:
You've never tried to pry an estimate out of someone like that guy, I suppose. It's maddening. "Are we talking days or weeks?" "I don't know." "Can we rule out months?" "I don't know." "It's a goddamn form, just give me something to work with here." "It'll be done when it's done." Estimates can be wrong, unknown unknowns can and will pop up to derail the best laid plans, but it's the youngest, most arrogant devs who insist that estimates are the death of productivity IME.
My work here consists basically of taking new technologies and platforms which I've never worked before and port our software to it. I'm asked estimations for things I have no fucking idea how to do. Unknown unknowns are 90% of it.
But I learned it's easier to just give a random number, and explain the unknown unknowns after they are discovered. It's a big lie, and the person asking for it is a moron.
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@fbmac Don't forget about Embedded Systems!
Seriously, there's bound to be times you can't estimate. That doesn't make estimation evil. It makes it a reasonable thing you can't have right now for reasons.
