KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?
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@FrostCat said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
In particular, fiat money is not backed by any hard resource like gold.
Gold isn't all that hard. Barely a 3 in the Mohs scale.
Also, anyone that thinks it's inherently valuable is dumb.
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@flabdablet said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
If I understand correctly, US banks are so completely retarded that loads of people still find that cheques (beg pardon, checks) are the most reliable way to move money from one to another.
Yes, there are things about them that make them convenient.
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@Kian said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Also, anyone that thinks it's inherently valuable is dumb.
It makes great electrical contacts and good radiation shielding for moon landers.
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@Kian said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Gold isn't all that hard.
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@TimeBandit said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Maybe you mean Canada, which withdraw the penny in 2012
I didn't mean Canada, but rather the US. Coinage also has a fairly long half-life in circulation as it doesn't wear out quickly, so while the composition was changed, there was still a fair bit of the true copper stuff still about.
You could probably just decide to end the use of nickels (with a program of exchange for larger coins handled by the banks) and find that most people would heave a sigh of relief at not having to keep around a pocket full of the silly things any more… and a few fools would still yammer on about it, of course.
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@dkf said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
I didn't mean Canada, but rather the US.
Ok then. But according to FrostCat, they are still in use.
In Canada, you can't get them anymore. When you pay cash, the total is rounded to the nearest $0.05
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My experience so far: It is a lot easier to trade cryptocurrencies for cryptocurrencies (ShapeShift.IO, Kraken, Poloniex) than trading to or from "real" currencies (fiat). I got my few bitcoins (less than US$10 actually) as bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies and am not really motivated to get them to real money.
When acquiring Bitcoin, the only "anonymous" method I know is physically getting to a Bitcoin ATM and deposit your cash there. Getting them via (reversible) traditional payment methods like credit cards requires lots of verification, since the risk of fraud is too high here (bitcoin transactions cannot be reversed in any way, so if you pay by credit card and then reverse your payment somehow (or the credit card was stolen), the merchant cannot get the Bitcoins back.
Never the less, when you are dealing (or wanting to deal) with more exotic crypto currencies it is almost always easier to go via Bitcoin (i. e. convert fiat to Bitcoin and then Bitcoin to your target currencies) as there are more options (from physical ATMs over #bitcoin-otc to more traditional services that accept wire transfers or issue VISA gift cards for your bitcoins) than with other cryptocurrencies.
I know you don't want to be helped, and this is good since I don't have any practical tips how to get Bitcoins easiest in the US. :D
By the way, I think one of the people involved in the creation of Ethereum once said not to use ETH as a currency and investing in it - like you don't usually use petrol as a currency, but I cannot find that statement again here. So let's see how The DAO works out in the long run :D
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@mihi said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
bitcoin transactions cannot be reversed in any way
They are a cash transaction. They might look like an electronic transaction, but they are not. Behave appropriately.
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@dkf With a real cash transaction you can see the person you're handing the cash to. With Bitcoin, you have no way of verifying that. It's dangerous as fuck.
EDIT: also real cash doesn't charge a service fee for a third party to "process" it. Bitcoin does.
EDIT EDIT: I can also use my VISA debit card to get actual cash with no problem at all. Even through third-parties who are not my bank-- for example, my grocery store.
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@Grunnen Literally the only times anyone does wire transfers from personal banking accounts in the US are buying a house and 419 scams.
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@Weng I used a money order when I bought a house. I assume those still exist in 2016. No wait I don't remember what I did. Maybe it was a wire transfer. Been too many years.
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@blakeyrat Yeah. But with wire transfers you don't have to walk around with a physical token representing you life savings.
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@blakeyrat : I'm afraid you are a victim of your own country. I work for a bank so I can tell you why you encounter all of those problems:
- Due to the internationa Anti-Money Laundering (often known as AML) laws that are followed by alemost every countries in the world and for which the US has been particularly painfully pushing, any company that transfers money or stores money for you needs to know your name and address. There is no way around it. If they don't do it, they go to jail (unless they are a big bank, of course, the big ones have an unlimited number of "get out of jail free" cards). That explains why you need to have this level 3 verification. And that's good, not having it is actually a red flag and is probably a sign that whatever service you are using is illegal or a scam.
- Interbank transfers are a pain in the ass with the US, because the US Banking system is a huge clusterfuck and has never updated any of their age old practices (that's why you still use magstripe and sign credit cards when the rest of the world switched to chip and pin 20 years ago). As a result, US banks don't use the IBAN system that makes international payments so much easier.
- Due to the US being (again) a huge pain in the ass and forcing the FATCA regulations down the throat of european countries, the identification procedures for US customers are even more stringent. Legal penalties for financial institutions that don't respect it are huge, so they tend not to take any risks.
- Since they don't like the risks imposed by dealing with US customers and their anally retentive government, many European financial institutions have simply decided not to deal with any "US Person" anymore. Some have even imposed stricter controls on USD, for fear that the US government suddenly decides that its laws can apply just because their currency is being used.
That explains the major part of your problems.
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Also, the retardation of US banks is also why you guys are still using Cheques, and that your banks still believe that a "security question" is an appropriate second factor of authentication...
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@LordOfThePigs said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
the US Banking system is a huge clusterfuck and has never updated any of their age old practices (that's why you still use magstripe and sign credit cards when the rest of the world switched to chip and pin 20 years ago). As a result, US banks don't use the IBAN system that makes international payments so much easier.
And wire transfers date back to the original telegraph. It's not such a clusterfuck; ACH works just as well as wire transfers for banks in the US.
also why you guys are still using Cheques
That's not the banks' fault. Some idiots like them. Don't ask me why.
your banks still believe that a "security question" is an appropriate second factor of authentication
Can't disagree with you there. However, the real reason isn't because they're an appropriate security factor, it's because they provide a way for idiots who've forgotten their passwords to reset them without having to be helped by a real live human who the bank has to pay.
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@anotherusername said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Can't disagree with you there. However, the real reason isn't because they're an appropriate security factor, it's because they provide a way for idiots who've forgotten their passwords to reset them without having to be helped by a real live human who the bank has to pay.
If the rest of the world can figure out how to hire someone in India to do that sort of thing, so can the US.
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@LordOfThePigs said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Also, the retardation of US banks is also why you guys are still using Cheques,
"You guys" == "elderly people".
I haven't used a check since like 1999.
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@blakeyrat said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
I haven't used a check since like 1999.
I've never actually used a check, like, ever. I've used the temporary "here's a few we printed out until you buy some 'real' ones" because for some reason it's still required for direct deposit (really, I know all the stuff that's on the check, what makes having it printed on a separate paper so much more legit than writing it down normally?).
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@Tsaukpaetra But you get to scribble VOID across it, that's always fun
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@blakeyrat said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
I haven't used a check since like 1999.
The last time I used one was for paying taxes to my city. Because hell will freeze over before I trust them…
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@blakeyrat said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
But you get to scribble VOID across it, that's always fun
I wonder if they would accept
NULL
scribbled all over it?
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@Tsaukpaetra Do it the Oracle way! Scribble an empty string across it…
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@LordOfThePigs They take their exceptionalism seriously.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
I've never actually used a check, like, ever.
The first time I even saw a check was when I got an actual paycheck from my US employer, before I set up my US bank account. I took it to the bank to cashed it because I thought that'd be fun. It felt like I had taken a time machine back to 1920. (Also, I wanted to hold more than $1k of cash in my hand at least once in my life so I can feel rich.)
I've never, ever seen a check being used in Germany, not even in my childhood.
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@asdf said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
(Also, I wanted to hold more than $1k of cash in my hand at least once in my life so I can feel rich.)
I held $2.5k in my hand. It was surprisingly sobering how little physical representations of wealth really meant.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
It was surprisingly sobering how little physical representations of wealth really meant.
Yes. OTOH, I now finally know what a $100 bill looks and feels like.
@Tsaukpaetra said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
I held $2.5k in my hand.
Then I guess it was a bit more than the first week's salary in your case. If not, I want your job. Now. 2.5k/week after taxes sounds amazing.
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@Tsaukpaetra I once moved nearly £10k as actual cash; I was consolidating a bunch of savings accounts between several banks (many years ago), and that was the only way they could handle it in a timely way.
I felt quite nervous for the 10 minutes or so that it took. :)
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@asdf said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Then I guess it was a bit more than the first week's salary in your case. If not, I want your job. Now. 2.5k/week after taxes sounds amazing.
Oh no, this was part collateral for a cash exchange of totally legitimate transaction. Not from a job. ;)
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@dkf said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
£10k as actual cash
Do banks even hand out that much cash at once, to a single customer these days? I'm pretty sure I'd have to call my bank a week in advance and even then I'm not sure they'd do it.
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@Tsaukpaetra Damnit, I was already looking up the price of my favorite Porsche.
totally legitimate transaction
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@asdf said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Do banks even hand out that much cash at once, to a single customer these days?
Not the faintest idea. It was over 20 years ago when I was assembling assets so that could afford college.
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@dkf said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
It was over 20 years ago
Holy guacamole! £10k in 1990 should be between 20k and 25k€ nowadays. That's a shitload of cash, no wonder you were nervous.
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@asdf said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
That's a shitload of cash, no wonder you were nervous.
Yes. It was.
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@blakeyrat said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
millions of mining GPUs
GPUs? Please, that's so 2009. There have been at least three iterations of dedicated hardware for that. I mean specific integrated circuits precisely designed and manufactured just to waste power plaing SHA hash roulette.
Dangle a carrot on a stick and the humanity can do some really amazing things.
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@boomzilla said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
there are things about [cheques] that make them convenient.
Only because you don't live in a civilized society.
Where I live, all I have to do to pay anybody else in this country any amount of money is to log on to my bank's web site, click Pay Anyone, fill in their BSB (bank/state/branch) and account numbers, add an optional lodgement reference code (these are opaque to the banks - they exist to let the recipient identify the purpose of an incoming transaction), specify the amount, click Pay, then eyeball all those details one more time and click Confirm.
If it's an account I've never transferred funds to before, I also have to exercise my TOTP token at the confirmation step.
We have had the ability to do this pretty much since banks first got web sites. Almost nobody here uses cheques any more.
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@flabdablet said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
We have had the ability to do this pretty much since banks first got web sites. Almost nobody here uses cheques any more.
Same in the UK. I think I might have a cheque book somewhere but I can guarantee it's full and probably expired
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@Jaloopa The US has no workable banking system, no workable land title system, no workable electoral system and no workable healthcare system. It's the civilized world's retarded cousin, but don't let on that we know that or it will get in a snit.
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@Weng said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Literally the only times anyone does wire transfers from personal banking accounts in the US are buying a house and 419 scams.
The main use of wire transfers in the US is remittances from immigrants to people back home in Latin America.
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@LordOfThePigs said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
that's why you still use magstripe and sign credit cards when the rest of the world switched to chip and pin 20 years ago
Thank God. Chip and pin can go fuck itself.
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@flabdablet said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Only because you don't live in a civilized society.
That's exactly what I'd expect from a left side of the road driving savage such as yourself.
@flabdablet said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Where I live, all I have to do to pay anybody else in this country any amount of money is to log on to my bank's web site, click Pay Anyone, fill in their BSB (bank/state/branch) and account numbers, add an optional lodgement reference code (these are opaque to the banks - they exist to let the recipient identify the purpose of an incoming transaction), specify the amount, click Pay, then eyeball all those details one more time and click Confirm.
That's a lot more work than writing their name, the amount, and signing my name.
EDIT: Also, you remind me of the people writing apologies for living with Windows Updates.
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@flabdablet said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
The US has no workable banking system, no workable land title system, no workable electoral system and no workable healthcare system.
Whereas the UK has mostly managed the banking system.
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@boomzilla said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
The main use of wire transfers in the US is remittances from immigrants to people back home in Latin America.
Wire transfers are probably the most popular method for paying for goods you buy online* or sending someone money in central Europe.
*Yes, more popular than credit cards. Credit cards = debt = bad.
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@boomzilla said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
@flabdablet said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Where I live, all I have to do to pay anybody else in this country any amount of money is to log on to my bank's web site, click Pay Anyone, fill in their BSB (bank/state/branch) and account numbers, add an optional lodgement reference code (these are opaque to the banks - they exist to let the recipient identify the purpose of an incoming transaction), specify the amount, click Pay, then eyeball all those details one more time and click Confirm.
That's a lot more work than writing their name, the amount, and signing my name.
Forgive me if it is a stupid question, but isn't something missing here, like going to the bank or mail office to hand in the written signature?
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@Grunnen said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Forgive me if it is a stupid question, but isn't something missing here, like going to the bank or mail office to hand in the written signature?
Yes, obviously they have to deposit the check. I think some banks allow you to scan the checks themselves. And sure, if we're remote, I'd have to mail them the check, but my typical use case isn't that. And depositing is the receiver's problem.
But again, I don't have to log into anything or know any sort of details about the person other than his name. And even then, I could leave that part blank and let him fill it in if I wanted to.
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@asdf said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
Do banks even hand out that much cash at once, to a single customer these days? I'm pretty sure I'd have to call my bank a week in advance and even then I'm not sure they'd do it.
In the US they will -- if it's your money, you can withdraw it -- but I think they usually ask for a couple day's notice if it's a very large amount. Also, the bank will file a CTR for any daily transaction of $10,000 or more -- or any transaction they feel suspicious about. It's illegal to intentionally structure transactions to avoid the $10,000 limit, so if they suspect you're doing that, they'll report it too. CTR reference guide (PDF)
The CTR goes to the feds, who want to detect stuff like money laundering and fraud... so if you're not involved in any of that, you probably don't have anything to worry about. Just keep your documentation in order in case they ever come inquiring about the nature of your transactions. And definitely don't try to evade the reporting requirement, because they can and will hit you hard if they catch you doing that.
@asdf said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
£10k in 1990 should be between 20k and 25k€ nowadays. That's a shitload of cash, no wonder you were nervous.
I held a cashier's check for about that much when I was buying my house. I wouldn't dream of trying to move that much physical cash, though.
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@boomzilla said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
That's a lot more work than writing their name, the amount, and signing my name.
And a lot less than sticking a cheque in an envelope, addressing it and schlepping it out to the mailbox.
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@flabdablet said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
@boomzilla said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
That's a lot more work than writing their name, the amount, and signing my name.
And a lot less than sticking a cheque in an envelope, addressing it and schlepping it out to the mailbox.
I wouldn't even know where to get a cheque. The mailbox is right outside my house and why do I want to know anyone's bank account number? But I can also just have my bank send a check from online, too.
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@flabdablet said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
And a lot less than sticking a cheque in an envelope, addressing it and schlepping it out to the mailbox.
Your bank doesn't have bill pay?
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This morning I bought about $40 worth of bitcoin, which is the awesome exchange rate of about 8 bitcoin cents.
(Protip for crypto currency creators: if you want stupid people to invest, make your currency sound like a LOT of money compared to their "fiat" currency. Imagine how awesome I'd feel if my $40 got me like 4,000,000 bitcoins instead of 8 measly cents.)
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@flabdablet said in KRAKEN BITCOIN EXCHANGE whaaa?:
all I have to do to pay anybody else
All I have to do is put their email address into my bank's app.