Home Wiring WTF
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@dkf said in Home Wiring WTF:
strawman to one of the more -ridden
To be fair, using faulty electrical devices around a strawman would lead to
So... Yeah.
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@JazzyJosh said in Home Wiring WTF:
I'm in a one bedroom apartment and I have like 18 breakers
Heh, my old school has the same amount for the whole house (see above)
@Weng said in Home Wiring WTF:
i have FOUR ENTIRE PANELS of breakers. And they aren't the cutesy little girl panels, either.
Well, my house is old after all.
Great, are we really measuring breaker-boxPeen?
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@ben_lubar paging got totally screwed on mobile for me at this topic
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@loopback0 said in Home Wiring WTF:
In the event the plug is damaged or the appliance is some how damaged or malfunctioning you can kill the power without needing to touch it.
Finally, someone gets it.
@anotherusername said in Home Wiring WTF:
the circuit breaker can be shut off.
Cutting off an entire series of sockets for one faulty device? Seriously.
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@RaceProUK To be certain, my personal safety practices help ensure that none of the proposed situations should ever occur.
I've never had to intentionally shut down a breaker, except during those instances when I was messing with the infrastructure (and in that case, switches on the outlets couldn't help, because I would be working with stuff between the walls and therefore not under the influence of said switches).
Upkeep helps make sure I don't (or at the very least, shouldn't) ever need to worry about damaged or malfunctioning devices being unsafe to unplug arbitrarily.
Flat out: If I can't reliably and safely unplug said device from the wall (regardless if it's turn on and operational, live, whatever) at any given moment, it gets repaired, replaced, or otherwise mitigated.
Case in point: I recently replaced the power cord to a vintage lamp (it didn't even have a polarized plug AND the wire was literally bare metal wrapped in what appeared to be cardstock).
Filed under: Safety Captain when I was in F.I.R.S.T. Robotics
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Home Wiring WTF:
To be certain, my personal safety practices help ensure that none of the proposed situations should ever occur.
Oh absolutely; prevention is better than cure. But it's still nice to know there is a cure.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Home Wiring WTF:
Flat out: If I can't reliably and safely unplug said device from the wall (regardless if it's turn on and operational, live, whatever) at any given moment, it gets repaired, replaced, or otherwise mitigated.
Reasonable policy, but not the foundation of the reasoning for what gets written into electrical codes. They also take into account that some people are stupid, and other people are lazy and/or too tired to fix stuff so promptly.
The UK system is over-engineered, but that's because it was replacing a horrible old scheme with round pins that was much more dangerous (I think India still uses a variant of this, or is it South Africa?). It was also designed to cope with putting quite a physical load on the plug, such as you might get from these things.
http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/0285596_PE422552_S5.JPG
Chain a few of those and you can have real problems just due to the torsion forces. Crazy! (I regard those things as being very bad ideas in many ways. Whoever invented the power strip did the world a huge favour.)
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@dkf said in Home Wiring WTF:
I regard those things as being very bad ideas in many ways.
Yes, devices like those you pictured (single-plug multi-socket mini adapters, they're much more flimsy in the US) are explicitly banned from being used in my house. Outside the house, they're relegated to extension-cords only, with caution.
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@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
Cutting off an entire series of sockets for one faulty device? Seriously.
The one time in your lifetime when a device's plug literally falls apart unexpectedly while it's plugged in and running so that you can't touch it to yank it out... yes.
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@anotherusername said in Home Wiring WTF:
@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
Cutting off an entire series of sockets for one faulty device? Seriously.
The one time in your lifetime when a device's plug literally falls apart unexpectedly while it's plugged in and running so that you can't touch it to yank it out... yes.
If there are literally wires sticking out of the socket I reckon it would be safer too.
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You're all wrong about switches on sockets. They're there because it's a lot better than pulling out the plug, for two reasons fairly specific to UK plugs:
The plug takes a decent amount of force to remove. Flicking a switch is more convenient
A UK plug is one of the most painful things to step on, right up there with lego
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@anotherusername So you prefer to isolate an entire floor's worth of sockets instead of just one.
I guess when you want to uninstall a program, you reformat your PC. Because that's just as dumb.
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@Weng said in Home Wiring WTF:
@Tsaukpaetra i have FOUR ENTIRE PANELS of breakers. And they aren't the cutesy little girl panels, either.
I tried to search for cute circuit breaker panels but didn't find any.
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Some people are capable of risk-benefit analysis. In the U.S. scheme, does wiring every single goddamned outlet with a switch right fucking next to it actually improve safety in the vast majority of real-world scenarios, compared to a circuit breaker that (as I pointed out above) controls much less than one floor's worth of receptacles? Is it truly worth the increased cost? If one is a control-freak, Nerf-world, use-bubble-wrap-for-everything, feelings-are-more-important-than-logic safety Nazi, then naturally it is. I'm not saying that anyone in this thread is such, of course, but it's difficult for some of us not to ascribe such motivations.
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@lolwhat So, the UK system is stupid because the US system is different?
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@RaceProUK I think that's the usual argument used by people from the US. About many things.
Fortunately, it's also dumber than hell as arguments go so you don't need to put effort into rebutting it. Rolling your eyes and accusing them of being parochial fools is quite enough.
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@aliceif said in Home Wiring WTF:
@Weng said in Home Wiring WTF:
@Tsaukpaetra i have FOUR ENTIRE PANELS of breakers. And they aren't the cutesy little girl panels, either.
I tried to search for cute circuit breaker panels but didn't find any.
I'm also the owner of a new stapler
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@boomzilla said in Home Wiring WTF:
I've never felt the need for a fuse on a plug (though it kind of makes sense in the Christmas light scenario), so I'm trying to understand why this is such a valuable thing to have.
IMO it's not. It's rare that I actually blow a fuse, but when you do actually blow one, it's a right pain in the ass. Some modern devices don't tend to come with fuses, as your RCD does a nice enough job of breaking the circuit when an overload occurs, and an RCD is easier to reset because you just flip a switch.
I suppose if you have an old style fuse box, then having a fuse in the plug is an advantage, because they're easier and cheaper to replace than fuse box fuses. The scenario it helps with is where you have a device that is tripping the circuit, but you don't know which one. It's easy with an RCD because you can just keep resetting the circuit until you find which device was tripping it, whereas with an old fashioned fuse box, you could go through a lot of fuses before you find the culprit.
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@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
Cutting off an entire series of sockets for one faulty device? Seriously.
I don't recall ever having to do something like that. Like I said, buy better stuff.
@Jaloopa said in Home Wiring WTF:
They're there because it's a lot better than pulling out the plug, for two reasons fairly specific to UK plugs:
That makes more sense, I suppose.
@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
So you prefer to isolate an entire floor's worth of sockets instead of just one.
I guess when you want to uninstall a program, you reformat your PC. Because that's just as dumb.You are insane.
@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
So, the UK system is stupid
becauseand the US system is different?
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@boomzilla said in Home Wiring WTF:
It's not a strawman but an actual question. I've never felt the need for a fuse on a plug (though it kind of makes sense in the Christmas light scenario), so I'm trying to understand why this is such a valuable thing to have.
Assume you have a 24 gauge extension cord plugged into an outlet that has a 20 amp breaker. The wiring will be 12 gauge and the circuit breaker is designed to prevent fires in the event that the 12 gauge wire is overloaded. However, 15 amps is way over the limit of the cord, but under the limit of the circuit wiring. Plug a 15 amp heater into the extension cord and you are likely to start a fire. A fuse in the extension cord would be added safety because it will be sized for the cord, not the circuit.
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@Jaime said in Home Wiring WTF:
extension cord
Yeah, I can definitely see the usefulness for extension cords. Those can be amazingly abused.
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@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
So you prefer to isolate an entire floor's worth of sockets instead of just one.
No, putting an entire floor's worth of sockets on a single breaker is fucking idiotic as well.
Anyway, the scenario that you're worried about is so ridiculously implausible that I quite frankly don't see it happening. If it's damaged and it's not plugged in, then don't plug it in; replace it... there's no need to mess with the breaker in that case, so that leaves only cases where the plug literally disintegrated while it was plugged in. What are they made out of, Styrofoam?
@Jaime said in Home Wiring WTF:
A fuse in the extension cord would be added safety because it will be sized for the cord, not the circuit.
Yes, and some extension cords do have fuses. Generally, though, you just tell people not to be morons and not to overload them. Plus, there are a lot of other idiotic things that someone could do which a fuse won't really help. Like running it under a rug and then setting a rocking chair right on top of it. There's nothing to catch that until the cord's already ruined (and shorts out); then your circuit breaker will handle it just fine, no fuse required (although the fuse would probably also catch it).
A cord for one appliance is a completely different scenario though, because unlike the extension cord (which could have anything plugged into it), whomever selected the cord for the appliance knew what's going to be attached to it.
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@anotherusername Presumably the protection goes the other way: if there's a power surge the fuse goes before your expensive computer is fried.
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@Jaloopa yes, that's the main reason why you'd probably want to put a fuse on your device. There are digital circuits that can do similar, though, short of something drastic like a lightning strike (and what's another half cm of empty space for that to jump across, really).
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@anotherusername said in Home Wiring WTF:
No, putting an entire floor's worth of sockets on a single breaker is fucking idiotic as well.
Because only crazy people like to have fuseboxes smaller than a minivan.
@anotherusername said in Home Wiring WTF:
Anyway, the scenario that you're worried about is so ridiculously implausible that I quite frankly don't see it happening.
Want to know why it's so implausible? Because some people actually take safety seriously.
@anotherusername said in Home Wiring WTF:
Generally, though, you just tell people not to be morons and not to overload them.
I regularly see people walk out in front of cars without looking; if they're too dumb to notice a 1.5t metal box hurtling towards them at 30mph+, they're dumb enough to overload an extension cord.
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@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
Want to know why it's so implausible? Because some people actually take safety seriously.
This isn't safety, this is paranoia.
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@Deadfast said in Home Wiring WTF:
@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
Want to know why it's so implausible? Because some people actually take safety seriously.
This isn't safety, this is paranoia.
Dude I swear the little switch people are out to get me
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@swayde said in Home Wiring WTF:
@Deadfast said in Home Wiring WTF:
@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
Want to know why it's so implausible? Because some people actually take safety seriously.
This isn't safety, this is paranoia.
Dude I swear the little switch people are out to get me
It's ok though, you can turn them off.
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@anotherusername said in Home Wiring WTF:
A cord for one appliance is a completely different scenario though, because unlike the extension cord (which could have anything plugged into it), whomever selected the cord for the appliance knew what's going to be attached to it.
Potential scenario: Electric tea kettle (which apparently is a popular thing in the UK) leaks and causes a partial short that causes the device to draw more current than the cord can handle, but less than the main fuse can handle. Remember that the main fuse in the UK is frikkin' huge by US standards. Main fuse does not blow, but cord fuse blows, preventing a likely fire.
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@RaceProUK said in Home Wiring WTF:
Want to know why it's so implausible? Because some people actually take safety seriously.
Sure, but why bring them into this?
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@Jaime said in Home Wiring WTF:
Potential scenario: Electric tea kettle (which apparently is a popular thing in the UK) leaks and causes a partial short
Ah, now we're back to buy better appliances? I mean..sure, we could come up with scenarios where the fuse could be useful. The question is: how often do those come up in real life?
No, I think @Jaloopa's theory of poor / inconvenient design makes more sense as the explanation.
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@boomzilla If you think that's unlikely, read up a why the main plumbing vent is usually required to be at least three inches in diameter. Most household safety standards are pretty conservative.
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@Jaime said in Home Wiring WTF:
If you think that's unlikely, read up a why the main plumbing vent is usually required to be at least three inches in diameter.
I think it's unlikely because none of the Brits in this thread have cited this sort of thing as happening. People spill water all over coffee machines all the time. I've never seen nor heard of one shorting out and causing the sort of problem you described.
In any case, I have no idea where I would read about such a thing as main plumbing vent widths, but googling for that topic, the first few links on google seem to be quoting some sort of code that says they should be 1.25 inches. Maybe it's a different type of thing than you're referring to.
I have no idea, but I'm guessing that smaller diameters have been known to cause problems in ways that not having fuses in every cord plug does not.
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@Jaloopa said in Home Wiring WTF:
A UK plug is one of the most painful things to step on, right up there with lego
Lego isn't in the same ball-park. Lego hurts, but you hop around and swear for a bit and then you get on with it. At least, in my experience.
I've never had lego leave me with a flap of skin dangling off next to a raw, bleeding surface that required immediate first-aid and took many days to heal. The only silver lining is that you usually only get one such wound because you hit the earth pin fist and stop before the other two can do as much damage.
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@boomzilla said in Home Wiring WTF:
In any case, I have no idea where I would read about such a thing as main plumbing vent widths, but googling for that topic, the first few links on google seem to be quoting some sort of code that says they should be 1.25 inches. Maybe it's a different type of thing than you're referring to.
I have no idea, but I'm guessing that smaller diameters have been known to cause problems in ways that not having fuses in every cord plug does not.
It's usually required to be at least three inches in diameter in the northern half of the US. That size is way more than is necessary for function, but it's grossly over sized just in case the inner surface gets a one-inch thick coat of ice. That's far more unlikely than an appliance that draws too much current due to water in the circuitry. BTW the US handles the water issue by requiring ground fault protection in kitchen and bathroom areas rather than by mandating more robust fusing. That's probably why we've never heard of it happening.
In one of the more conservative communities around here the vent is required to be copper or cast iron as to avoid physical damage that causes blockage. That adds hundreds of dollars to the cost for an event that is likely to happen once every few years for the entire country.
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@Jaime said in Home Wiring WTF:
BTW the US handles the water issue by requiring ground fault protection in kitchen and bathroom areas rather than by mandating more robust fusing. That's probably why we've never heard of it happening.
Yeah, I was thinking that. If there's water shorting out your teakettle, more than likely it's shorting some of the current to ground (if it's properly grounded, natch) and the GFCI will detect that really fast... they can detect a handful of milliamps leaking and shut off the power in about 30 ms.
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@anotherusername And honestly, GFCIs die on me more often than they trip for legitimate reasons.
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@anotherusername said in Home Wiring WTF:
Or did you just not mention it...
Why on earth would I mention it?
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@aliceif said in Home Wiring WTF:
I tried to search for cute circuit breaker panels but didn't find any.
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*looks at image*
*looks at avatar*
*looks at image*
*looks at avatar**whistles innocently*
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@aliceif said in Home Wiring WTF:
cute circuit breaker panels
Really? Shirley, there must be some form of aesthetically pleasing pane-OH MY {DEITY} WE'RE INFECTING GOOGLE!
Thanks @RaceProUK!Pre-Edit: 'S BY @DCON bUT POSTING ANYWAYS BECAUSE i HAD TO-- Oh look, Caps lock turned on, wtf.
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@Tsaukpaetra that's pinkiepie for you.
always breaking the fourth wall.
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@accalia said in Home Wiring WTF:
@Tsaukpaetra that's pinkiepie for you.
always breaking the fourth wall.It's not just her!
Edit: Heck, even @aliceif is in this listing...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Home Wiring WTF:
It's not just her!
Oh, and I think I did find a cutesy circuit breaker!
Filed under: Dagnabbit, Pinkie, stop photobombing!
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@boomzilla said in Home Wiring WTF:
It's useful to have at least one of those in a room for lighting but having them on everything just sounds like a recipe for frustration and inadvertently turning things off that really shouldn't be.
Half the outlets in my apartment, or so it seems, have switches. Mostly by the door into the room, where they're easy to flip by mistake, and then the lamp that plugs into the outlet 8 feet from the switch goes out when someone walks into the room. That lasted about three days after I moved in, and then we taped them all on.
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@anotherusername said in Home Wiring WTF:
only stupid people shock themselves with properly-working electrical plugs and/or outlets, switch or no switch.
Apparently, that set includes everyone in England, considering how much they love their safety outlets.
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@Yamikuronue said in Home Wiring WTF:
we shocked ourselves maybe half a dozen times.
Which of the three of you were the slow learners? :)
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@anotherusername said in Home Wiring WTF:
If it's not safe, then don't use it.
Remember you're talking to someone from a country where some of the people think the rest of them aren't smart enough to be allowed to handle knives longer than 4", or pointed ones. Or glass mugs.
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@boomzilla said in Home Wiring WTF:
I'm going to assume from now on that you guys don't get a bunch of blown plug fuses, since no one will answer directly.
Obviously it happens constantly and they're so embarrassed about it they can't admit to it.
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@CarrieVS said in Home Wiring WTF:
I've never had lego leave me with a flap of skin dangling off next to a raw, bleeding surface that required immediate first-aid and took many days to heal.
So much for the theory that the UK system is safer!
@CarrieVS said in Home Wiring WTF:
The only silver lining is that you usually only get one such wound because you hit the earth pin fist and stop before the other two can do as much damage.
I mean, unless you trip or something and don't have control over the speed with which your foot comes down.