🔥 Yore driving, Deez roasted Nuts! 🔥
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Are they in a dragster? How do they "rush" 3 car lengths?
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Have you truly never seen the guy who will take advantage of the tiniest gap in traffic, no matter how rude or unsafe it might be, in order to get to his destination 10 seconds sooner? If not, look in the mirror, because it's probably you.
How? Let's say traffic is merging more-or-less smoothly but slowly at 5 MPH. You're late merging just slightly before the last possible second. As soon as you're far enough into the other lane that the moron has room to get past you, the moron speeds up to 10 MPH, passes you, slows down, and tries to merge in front of you.
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Of course I have, but I don't think we should make traffic for EVERYONE worse because 0.1% of the population is a jerk.
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very clear road markings
They can't be that clear if some people read them as "merge now" and others read them as "merge where the lane runs out".
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I'd say it's probably more than 0.1%, but that's not the point. I never said we should make traffic worse. After reading the MN study, I agree that late merging is Doing It Right™. I'm just saying it may not help as much as we might like; one jerk who disrupts the smooth flow can screw it up for the non-jerks.
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If you don't merge at the end of the lane, where are you supposed to merge? And how is that information conveyed to drivers?
At the point where traffic slows down and forms a slow-moving, densely-packed queue. And since presumably they are not blind, their eyes.
If there's two open registers at the supermarket, and one has a line of 20 people, and another has a line of zero people, am I an asshole by "zipping up" to the register with no line? Yes/no. Show your work.
2 != 1
I have the impression you are someone who only drives on the right lane
No.
and gets frustrated with people who legally drive until the end of the road
Only if they're passing a whole bunch of people who already formed a queue.
But I get the impression that a bunch of the people here would get violently angry with me if I pulled into the left lane and went at exactly the same speed as the right lane, which is how you're supposed to zipper merge, because then they couldn't zip up to the very front. And there'd be nothing illegal about my doing so.
I'm willing to concede that late merging may, indeed, be the correct way to merge, but 99.984827% of the time it won't actually help the traffic flow. If traffic is heavy enough that Doing It Wrong™ will cause a traffic jam, Doing It Right™ won't keep traffic flowing smoothly, either, and if it's light enough that it flows smoothly through the restriction by Doing It Right™, Doing It Wrong™ probably isn't going to jam it up.
QFFT. That's exactly what I've been trying to say.
Our analysis has shown that the Zipper System has no effect on travel time through the work zone. Unfortunately, the motorist’s travel time through a work zone appears to remain approximately the same regardless of whether the zipper was used or not.
THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
Thank you for finding it.
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That's frighteningly close to where I live....It's a small world I suppose....
It's pretty close to where I work ...
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THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
Thank you for finding it.
Quoting that without the other points in the same post ignores that fact that there are benefits (or would be, if everybody did it) from late merging. Those benefits do not necessarily accrue to the individual drivers doing the merging, but there are still benefits overall, and Doing It Right™ should be encouraged.
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@Tsaukpaetra said:
That's frighteningly close to where I live....It's a small world I suppose....
It's pretty close to where I work ...
I've been trying to figure out how to respond to the fact that I recognized the city at a glance, even though it's been over 30 years since I lived in the area, and I only lived there 6 months.
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I think you just did.
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In case you did not know, merging should be done as late as possible.
You merge at the last possible minute, so that the maximum number of cars can fit on the pavement.
What you say can make some sense in some situation, but in the road I took my daily traffic jam for a few years that is bullshit, look at this picture:
I couldn't find a version of this image in the rush our, but what happens is that the entire road is jammed, but after that fork it's totally free.
Our rules and law requires that if you're going to turn right you should be using the right lanes. But assholes use the left lane to bypass the queue that is formed, and people that doesn't intend to take that turn right get screwed.
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That's a different scenario than what this thread has been discussing. The specific scenario under discussion is when 3 lanes become 2 or 2 become 1. In other words, when merging is required because a lane is ending.
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Was that too offtopic? I would never derail a thread.
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I probably misunderstood because I never saw it happening here. If there is something you won't see in this land, is a bad thing happen because there is too much people trying to be nice.
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You have the right of way. You can't give it away. You fuck up everyone's expectations when you do that.
You're an asshole. You're doing more harm than good by not obeying the normal traffic laws, even if you think you're being "nice".
I did it again!I was driving at like 10 km/h because of a raised pedestrian crossing and instead of pushing the gas I signalled a driver coming the other way so he could cross my lane and enter a parking lot on my side of the street.
The other driver was also an asshole. He waved a third driver who was coming out of the aforementioned parking lot so he could could take the opportunity to go across my lane and enter his lane, instead of having to wait for who knows how much time for another break, as there were queues on both sides of the street.
The third driver handwaved us both "thanks" and took the opportunity, then the second driver thanked me and finished going across my lane just as I finished clearing the elevation on my side.
What a bunch of dickheads!
Then later I avoided a puddle so I wouldn't splash dirty water over some pedestrians.
I am a horrible, horrible person.
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Better hide your kids! If I see them on a side of a street I might slow down!
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The late merge requires that everyone on the road zip together perfectly, which means everyone has to drive with skill and courtesy. If even one person fails to merge smoothly, it throws everyone else off.
Any "correct" procedure that depends on drivers not being asshats isn't practical, at least not until a bunch of defective drivers get fixed. If anyone knows how to do that, come to Dallas, there is a lot of work for you here.
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Better hide your kids! If I see them on a side of a street I might slow down!
Do you drive a van?
Yellow van, last know to be driving slowly near the curbs
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I've already acknowledged all of that, but certain people got their panties in a bunch when I tried to argue that zipper merge might not actually help any in some situations.
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They can't be that clear if some people read them as...
Can you see any flaws with this line of reasoning?
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What the fuck is wrong with people?
Mostly, they don't work from the principle my mother hammered into me as a learner driver: all other drivers are homicidal maniacs and all pedestrians are suicidal ones.
Over the years I've moderated that somewhat, and now I treat all other road users as mindless rules-driven robots with attention deficit disorder. From which it follows that if other drivers are legally required to give way to you, and show every sign of doing so, by far your safest option is to avoid inviting them to re-work that decision.
car #3 has a brain fart and decides to make a U-turn
Probably had to.
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You have the right of way.
No such thing.
Other drivers being required to give way to you does not confer any such right. Every driver's overarching obligation is the same: don't hit the other cars. If a driver who is required to give way to you has failed to do so, possibly due to inattention or you being in their blind spot or whatever, it is on you to avoid hitting them to the best of your ability; if you sail on through and clean them up, no court and no insurer will do anything but Nelson-laugh at you if you claim to have had "the right of way".
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No such thing.
You're a dolt. Item 7:
Not only is Right of Way codified in law (https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08), but it is something you can be punished for not obeying.
Caveat: that may not be true in your state/province/rat hole, but you are 100% wrong in saying "no such thing".
If a driver who is required to give way to you has failed to do so, possibly due to inattention or you being in their blind spot or whatever, it is on you to avoid hitting them to the best of your ability; if you sail on through and clean them up, no court and no insurer will do anything but Nelson-laugh at you if you claim to have had "the right of way"
Or you'll both be at fault.
If I'm going straight through, and driver 2 is making a left, I have the right of way. Driver 2 cannot make a left until the intersection is clear. Driver 2 makes the left anyways, in front of me, and I hit them. They are at fault. I had the right of way.
I can still be charged with careless driving if I wasn't paying attention to the road (texting, example)-- or speeding and being unable to stop-- or drunk. It isn't a zero-sum game.
But that other driver will, for sure, be charged with failure to yield right of way.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Not only is Right of Way codified in law (https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08), but it is something you can be punished for not obeying.
No. Read the language of that statute carefully. The right of way is something you can be punished for not yielding in defined circumstances.
There is no pre-existing Right Of Way that you have as you approach any given intersection. Your right to proceed through an intersection, if there is contention for that intersection with other drivers, is created by virtue of the other drivers yielding it to you.
If the rules say that another driver must yield the right of way to you, but they fail to do so, then yes they can be penalised for that; but even in that case you do not have a pre-existing right to barge on through regardless, pushing all the responsibility for any resulting collision onto the driver who failed to yield to you.
Even facing a green traffic signal does not absolve you of a responsibility to avoid colliding with drivers who have failed to yield the right of way to you. If you're coming up to a green, and you see another driver running the red, it's absolutely still on you to slow down and avoid T-boning them if you possibly can. This is true whether they're an emergency vehicle with lights and sirens operating, or just a red-running jackass.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
If I'm going straight through, and driver 2 is making a left, I have the right of way.
No you don't. Not until driver 2 yields it to you, which I am not disputing that the law requires them to do.
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Only if they're passing a whole bunch of people who already formed a queue.
So you are mad because you aren't reading the traffic right and got stuck?
the left lane and went at exactly the same speed as the right lane
just because that would be again provide proof of your inability to move at a corresponding speed. I never claimed you should go full throttle at the left lane but as long as you can drive forward you should continue forward in an acceptable speed, yes that might be faster then the right lane.And there'd be nothing illegal about my doing so.
Actually there is ... if you are keeping traffic up you are
and you can be fined for not being fluid. Too slow can become dangerous and reckless as well.
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Actually there is ... if you are keeping traffic up you are
and you can be fined for not being fluid. Too slow can become dangerous and reckless as well.I'm not keeping up traffic. I'm going exactly the same speed as all the other traffic.
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If you are able to move forward but don't because you are "keeping pace" with the adjacent lane (which is stopped or nearly so), you can be ticketed for obstructing traffic. At least that is the case in every US state I have been licensed in (Washington, Utah, and Arizona). And from what @Luhmann is saying, it sounds like that is the case in Belgium as well.
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Yes! In Belgium the right lane is also required to allow zip merging at the lane junction.
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I am keeping pace because my lane is ending and I intend to merge into the lane with which I'm keeping pace, and that is how you are supposed to zipper merge. Unless you have flashing lights and/or a siren on your vehicle, I don't have to make way for you. And I seriously doubt that I'd ever get a ticket for doing so.
Anyway, the jackasses behind me who want to cut the queue are just trying to exploit the situation by claiming that everyone ought to be zipper merging, when in fact zipper merge wouldn't help one bit. The constriction is further on, not at the merge point. It matters not one bit if the vehicles ahead of you in the queue are lined up in one lane or two; it has absolutely no effect on the number of vehicles passing through the constriction, and thus on the length of time you'll have to wait. Unless you excuse yourself cutting the queue and being an asshole to everyone else who's waiting patiently.
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Yeah well, here they aren't. Zipper merge isn't mandatory either. So if I feel like you're driving courteously, I'll let you merge in front of me. Otherwise,
. You can merge in somewhere behind me, where you came from.
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Now I remember why I stay out of :car:
threads. No one actually knows how to drive, but "feels" they do.Muted.
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I am keeping pace because my lane is ending and I intend to merge into the lane with which I'm keeping pace, and that is how you are supposed to zipper merge. Unless you have flashing lights and/or a siren on your vehicle, I don't have to make way for you. And I seriously doubt that I'd ever get a ticket for doing so.
Nope, over two hunder posts in you still don't understand how zipper merging is supposed to work.
Anyway, the jackasses behind me who want to cut the queue are just trying to exploit the situation by claiming that everyone ought to be zipper merging
Jackasses exploiting the situation? Expoloiting it how? Using a fully functional lane? Has it ever occured to you that if the lane wasn't meant to be used it wouldn't be there? I know that I'm simply repeating what 35 other people have already told you but for some reason I'm hoping you will get it eventually.
The constriction is further on, not at the merge point. It matters not one bit if the vehicles ahead of you in the queue are lined up in one lane or two; it has absolutely no effect on the number of vehicles passing through the constriction, and thus on the length of time you'll have to wait.
And that's where you're wrong. Ignoring the fact that with proper merging the traffic thoughput would be higher, how about you stop being a selfish prick who's only interested in his travel time and consider all the people who have no interest in going though this constriction? What if they want to turn off before it? Nah, fuck those people, I'm just gonna "patiently" sit here, artifically lengthening the traffic jam because using both available lanes is somehow impolite or something. And by god, so will they!
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So if I feel like you're driving courteously, I'll let you merge in front of me. Otherwise,
I think that is the biggest misunderstanding. I'm not promoting driving like a jerk but yes I will use the damn lane as long as I can.
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I think that is the biggest misunderstanding. I'm not promoting driving like a jerk but yes I will use the damn lane as long as I can.
Yes, unfortunately by his definition if you overtake him using this entirely empty lane you are automatically labeled
@anotherusername said:an asshole
so good luck with him letting you merge,
@anotherusername said:jackass
.
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one jerk who disrupts the smooth flow can screw it up for the non-jerks
I've recently been right behind just such a jerk, in a 5km tailback on the Great Ocean Road, moving at an average of maybe 5km/h.
This guy's strategy was to remain completely motionless until a gap of maybe 150m had opened up ahead of him, then take off like a cut cat until he got right up behind the car in front of him, then slam on his brakes and come to a dead stop again.
After watching him do this enough times to be sure it was completely deliberate, I could find no better option than to tamp down all my
, take my best guess at an average crawl speed and maintain that, and just watch him shuttle back and forth inside his claimed 150m of roadway. Dumb prick.
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This guy's strategy was to remain completely motionless until a gap of maybe 150m had opened up ahead of him, then take off like a cut cat until he got right up behind the car in front of him, then slam on his brakes and come to a dead stop again.
That pretty much couldn't happen any place I've lived, because the people stuck behind him would find some way to pass him, legal or not, safe or not, and he'd never get 150m of open road to play his game. If I were a cop and I saw that behavior (and I wasn't too busy dealing with whatever was causing the backup in the first place), I'd cite him for obstructing traffic ("remain completely motionless") and reckless driving ("got right up behind the car in front of him, then slam on his brakes"). I might also use "erratic driving" as an excuse to make him get out of the car and take a field sobriety test — not that I necessarily think he'd fail, but drive home the point that his behavior is bad in a way that is as seriously inconvenient and embarrassing to him as reasonably possible. Be a prick; be treated like a prick.
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the people stuck behind him would find some way to pass him, legal or not, safe or not
The thing about the Great Ocean Road is that it's twisty and narrow, and for the entire length of this particular tailback it was double lines all the way. I was the guy right behind this particular fool in the inbound lane, the outbound lane had uncongested traffic travelling at the speed limit, and I had my wife and child in the car. No way was I going to risk getting into a head-on with somebody coming around the next bend merely to prove a point.
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the outbound lane had uncongested traffic travelling at the speed limit, and I had my wife and child in the car. No way was I going to risk getting into a head-on with somebody
Ah, so you're not completely crazy. Unfortunately, that cannot be said for all drivers.
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Does he just love paying for gas? When I see shit like that I wanna pull the guy over and interview him and get inside his head. Like, what's the point of that? I have to know.
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Considered it. But then there would have been two idiots stopped in the middle of a 5km tailback (also, in my State it's illegal to pull over on a section of roadway with double lines down the middle).
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That pretty much couldn't happen any place I've lived, because the people stuck behind him would find some way to pass him, legal or not, safe or not, and he'd never get 150m of open road to play his game.
Couldn't happen here either, because that 150m gap would be filled with cars (or worse, lorries) from the right lane quicker than he could get on the gas. So basically he and everybody behind him would stand still forever.I might also use "erratic driving" as an excuse to make him get out of the car and take a field sobriety test — not that I necessarily think he'd fail, but drive home the point that his behavior is bad in a way that is as seriously inconvenient and embarrassing to him as reasonably possible. Be a prick; be treated like a prick.
This. Also if you were feeling really bored behind him you could call the cops and report him for erratic driving.
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Couldn't happen here either, because that 150m gap would be filled with cars (or worse, lorries) from the right lane quicker than he could get on the gas.
That's the thing about the Great Ocean Road - it's one lane each way and no overtaking allowed, over long stretches with loads of blind bends, for miles and miles and miles.
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The constriction is further on, not at the merge point.
Merge earlier, and now you've got a longer constriction. Congratulations, that certainly helps.
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Merge earlier, and now you've got a longer constriction. Congratulations, that certainly helps.
If it means that an early-merging idiot is out of my way, yes, it might indeed help.
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Next step: race until the last meter of the lane
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Ah sorry, I was mentally stuck in two-lane stories.
In single lanes I tend do this to a lesser degree (not 150m and not full-bore acceleration and braking) because of the stupid start-stop-automatic thing my car has. Starting the engine just to crawl five metres and letting it turn off again gets tedious quite fast.
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