The Official Woody Woodpecker Thread
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All that sciency egghead shit disagrees with you also. All the sciency egghead shit that I looked up on the subject said either, "No the biological sex is still the same" or "We are not really sure at this point in time".
Even you had gotten further on the subject already.I can't speak for him, but when I said a lot of that it was in regard to the Idiot Fox's assertion that a man could fellate a penis and that not be gay as long as the receiver *felt like* a female.
Depends on who you give the power of definition to, doesn't it? You dodged the question on this one. a, b or c?
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You could just as well object to your ebola diagnosis. It doesn't go away because you do.
And it is not a diagnosis if the person does not have ebola, even if a SJW tells them they do.
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How is recommending proven psychological treatment for a psychological issue "incredulity"? I'm not seeing it.
Well, maybe terror. Certainly not disgust. You have expressed your personal orientation on this matter and have said that you find people with slightly different feelings to be crazy (basically). Jeez, you talk about other people not being open to other people's arguments and you don't even believe your own!
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Oh, fuck off.
@flabdablet clearly uses the phrase "disgust and terror". That's not a rational response, that's a phobia.
Like flabdablet, I'm heterosexual. And, like flabdablet, I find the prospect of a homosexual encounter of the "poking intimate body parts in other intimate body parts" kind, at the very worst of the worst, "unlikely".
Disgust and terror is running around puking because "oh my god, gay men want to stuff their great big hairy cocks up my arse[1]".
[1] and I might like it
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And yet you still claim that you do not make claims that being heterosexual is also homophobia?
Being heterosexual has nothing to do with choice. It has to do with the experience of attraction, which happens independent of choice. The idea that sexual orientation is a matter of choice is simply incorrect, as evidenced by the consistent failures of conversion therapy.
So if you're making a deliberate choice to rule out any sexual encounter that you would describe as homosexual, you're not doing that because of heterosexuality; the fact of making that choice is an expression of some degree of homophobia. And homophobia, unlike sexual orientation, is a psychological problem and does respond well to psychological intervention.
You and @boomzilla can keep on repeating the canard about sexual orientation and partner choice policy being the same thing as many times as you like; it remains incorrect.
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How is recommending proven psychological treatment for a psychological issue "incredulity"? I'm not seeing it.
You are incredulous when you express incredulity that a heterosexual man would have an aversion to having sex with another man.
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@flabdablet clearly uses the phrase "disgust and terror". That's not a rational response, that's a phobia.
Yeah, like I said, I brought in more baggage, and his intolerance is still just as ugly.
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But for folks around here asking a transsexual person to expose this bit of information is somehow pure evil
Strawman. Do better.
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Again, let's say you learn a week later that the girl is your first cousin. Is that still okay? If she did it knowing the relationship, is that still okay?
Dunno. Do your cousins disgust you?
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Being heterosexual has nothing to do with choice. It has to do with the experience of attraction, which happens independent of choice. The idea that sexual orientation is a matter of choice is simply incorrect, as evidenced by the consistent failures of conversion therapy.
So if you're making a deliberate choice to rule out any sexual encounter that you would describe as homosexual, you're not doing that because of heterosexuality; the fact of making that choice is an expression of some degree of homophobia. And homophobia, unlike sexual orientation, is a psychological problem and does respond well to psychological intervention.
You and @boomzilla can keep on repeating the canard about sexual orientation and partner choice policy being the same thing as many times as you like; it remains incorrect.
You are one incredulous, miserable to talk to, bastard.
The idea that sexual orientation is a matter of choice is simply incorrect, as evidenced by the consistent failures of conversion therapy.
No one fucking said that it was, we said it was a sexual orientation. You said that anyone who would not be OK with the prospect of having a sexual encounter with someone of their sex is a homophobe.
any sexual encounter that you would describe as homosexual
No, I was just using the definition of homosexual that the rest of society uses, and the one in the dictionaries, and in textbooks, and everywhere else. You are using one that you made up that comes from your transpansexual life.
the fact of making that choice is an expression of some degree of homophobia.
Once again, you are saying that choosing to not have sex with men is homophobia.
You and @boomzilla can keep on repeating the canard about sexual orientation and partner choice policy being the same thing as many times as you like; it remains incorrect.
According to you
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Again, let's say you learn a week later that the girl is your first cousin. Is that still okay? If she did it knowing the relationship, is that still okay?
First thing, I didnt say it was anywhere near okay. I said it was not comparable to violent rape.
And I would totally do any of my female 1st cousins when I was single, I dont get where you were going with that one.
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The prospect of me having a homosexual encounter is one of me being raped, because I have never had any homosexual inclinations.
So if you had had enjoyable consensual sex with somebody you were strongly attracted to, and you later found out that she was post-op trans, would you be more likely to (a) keep your description of your own orientation as "heterosexual" and widen your classification of "woman" to include trans women (b) keep your belief that a trans woman is "really" a man and alter your description of your own orientation to "heterosexual with rare exceptions" (c) express grief and rage at what you now consider deception and betrayal and rape (d) other?
If (c), you're transphobic. You might not like that, but there it is.
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@LaoC said:
"homophobia -- the fear, anxiety, anger, discomfort and aversion that some ostensibly heterosexual people hold for gay individuals".
Precisely my point. We don't hold fear, anxiety, anger, discomfort or aversion for gay individuals. Some of us do hold some discomfort or aversion for homosexual acts, but since we're civilized people that doesn't actually mean anything unless it concerns us and our sexual experiences directly.
It actually doesn't in the case at hand before your delusion comes into play. But in any case that's covered by fear, anxiety and aversion. And there is necessarily disgust aganst the individual if a single bit of information about that individual makes you turn a pleasurable experience into a disgusting one in your head. You didn't receive any information about the act that could have done it, just the individual.For you and your team, apparently, there's no difference between "I don't want a gay man in my bed" and "I don't want a gay man alive".
If you happen find anything about murderous tendencies as a neccesary condition in the above definition, do let me know.
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I never said otherwise.
No, you didn't. But the whole mess here is because apparently "making sure other person is into you as you are before sex" is too hard, and it's better to just decry the people who don't find some things acceptable, or even find them - gasp - disgusting.
Like flabdablet, I'm heterosexual. And, like flabdablet, I find the prospect of a homosexual encounter of the "poking intimate body parts in other intimate body parts" kind, at the very worst of the worst, "unlikely".
Good for you! Here, you get a sticker.
Now the hard part of the exercise - try to comprehend that for some people it's not the case, and it doesn't make them sick or deranged.
So if you're making a deliberate choice to rule out any sexual encounter that you would describe as homosexual, you're not doing that because of heterosexuality; the fact of making that choice is an expression of some degree of homophobia.
No, you dolt. It's not a "deliberate" choice. "Having a penis" is simply minus infinity to attractiveness in a straight man's book, and there's nothing one can do about it.
Dunno. Do your cousins disgust you?
And I would totally do any of my female 1st cousins when I was single
Dear Lord. Okay, scratch "cousin" and insert "sister you haven't seen for some years". Better now?
I said it was not comparable to violent rape.
Violent, no. But the phrase "informed consent" has the "informed" part for a reason.
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No, you didn't.
Well, just making things clear.
I'm a ringleader in a worldwide conspiracy against everyone who has different opinions than I have, you know.
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his intolerance is still just as ugly.
His intolerance of what exactly? What he said was exactly the truth - that being "disgusted and terrified" of a sexual encounter with a man is textbook homophobia. Hell, he didn't even mention that it's a fairly strong indicator of deeply repressed issues with one's own sexuality.What's then being turned into by (I suspect intentional) misreading is the absolute straw fucking man (see what I did there) of "not wanting to have sex with men is homophobic", which is absolutely not what @flabdablet, or anyone, has suggested.
There's a helluva lot of intolerance on display in this thread, but it's not coming from @flabdablet.
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You are incredulous when you express incredulity that a heterosexual man would have an aversion to having sex with another man.
I have never expressed any such incredulity. I am easily able to believe that such aversions exist; the evidence is manifest. The claim that any such aversion follows inevitably from the fact of heterosexual orientation is dubious at best, and would require reasoned argument in support in order to be taken seriously. No such reasoned argument has been forthcoming, merely a bunch of weaseling, fallacy and abuse.
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@LaoC said:
You could just as well object to your ebola diagnosis. It doesn't go away because you do.
And it is not a diagnosis if the person does not have ebola, even if a SJW tells them they do.
You're free to call it a false diagnosis if you have a better idea for why the patient is bleeding from the arse (or getting deeply traumatized by something he's allegedly "not OK with" respectively) but that's just missing the point. The point is, it's not a slur.
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Once again, you are saying that choosing to not have sex with men is homophobia.
Yes, I am saying that. I have been saying that quite clearly for some time. If you have sound arguments in opposition to that position, let's see them.
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The claim that any such aversion follows inevitably from the fact of heterosexual orientation is dubious at best,
And is not a claim that has been made.
You're free to call it a false diagnosis if you have a better idea for why the patient is bleeding from the arse (or getting deeply traumatized by something he's allegedly "not OK with" respectively) but that's just missing the point. The point is, it's not a slur.
If you've defined a word to mean a very clinical thing, that's...OK, though people may disagree (and no, appeals to authority on moral subjects doesn't work). But if you ignore that the word is very loaded with other meanings and use it outside of a clinical setting, then you're...using slurs.
And bad analogies to diagnosis of viral infection doesn't make your argument any better no matter how satisfied you are with it.
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"Having a penis" is simply minus infinity to attractiveness in
athis straight man's book, and there's nothing one can do about it.Yes there is. You can avoid having sex with people whose genitalia don't attract you. And you can let any potential partner know that if she has a penis, you're not interested. In other words, you can responsibly disclose your own issues.
What you can't do, if you wish to be seen as a modern and enlightened individual, is expect other people to guess every issue you might have and warn you about it before you've even brought it up.
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@Polygeekery said:
Once again, you are saying that choosing to not have sex with men is homophobia.
Yes, I am saying that. I have been saying that quite clearly for some time. If you have sound arguments in opposition to that position, let's see them.
You need a new word, because the rest of the world gets a different idea of what you're saying that what you're saying you're saying when you say that homophobia means that you're a man who chooses not to have sex with men.
Unless you really aren't interested in communicating with other people who use the English language. Then that's not a sound argument at all.
Filed Under: Know what I'm saying?
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Violent, no. But the phrase "informed consent" has the "informed" part for a reason.
Ok, maybe we just disagree with the definition of "rape".
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@flabdablet said:
The claim that any such aversion follows inevitably from the fact of heterosexual orientation is dubious at best,
And is not a claim that has been made.
The claim is implicit in all your suggestions about my alleged incredulity at your alleged sexual orientation.
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have no idea of how bad real violent rape is
Don't tell me I don't know how bad real violent rape is! Believe me, I watched the Sopranos, I know full well.
Disgust at the prospect of receptive anal sex is a separate issue
I was referring to "I would certainly consider a person who expressed disgust and terror at the prospect of a homosexual encounter to be exhibiting homophobia"
Plus, aren't gay homophobic then, since they can feel disgust at the prospect of homosexual encounter? Anal sex is homosexual encounter.
But still, is "being kissed by a man not necessarily on the penis" still an exhibition of homophobia, then?
Oh, and I like Stephen Fry very much. He's a funny fella.
@Yamikuronue is the only female forumgoer who writes articles.
At least I don't recall having seen Ellis Morning post on here.
Thanks.
I'm catching up reading some old interesting threads, but I don't have everything figured out yet.
How is recommending proven psychological treatment
Yeah, right, like with diagnosing bipolar?
And I would totally do any of my female 1st cousins when I was single, I dont get where you were going with that one.
Hah. Figures.
Dear Lord. Okay, scratch "cousin" and insert "sister you haven't seen for some years". Better now?
Nice one.
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@boomzilla said:
@flabdablet said:
The claim that any such aversion follows inevitably from the fact of heterosexual orientation is dubious at best,
And is not a claim that has been made.
The claim is implicit in all your suggestions about my alleged incredulity at your alleged sexual orientation.
No. My claims were about my particular orientation (and apparently some other people's). That I accepted your orientation at face value and without disgust or other negative reactions contradicts that inevitability.
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of "not wanting to have sex with men is homophobic", which is absolutely not what @flabdablet, or anyone, has suggested.
You might want to read the post right after yours...
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when you say that homophobia means that you're a man who chooses not to have sex with men.
You have the definition exactly backwards. Homophobia means that you experience terror and/or disgust at the prospect of being involved in a sexual encounter with somebody you consider to be of your own sex. Making a deliberate policy choice that you will avoid sex with such people whether attracted to them or not is a symptom of homophobia, not a definition for it.
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Anal sex is homosexual encounter.
There's a tremendous amount of porn freely available on the Internet that counts as evidence against that claim.
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You have the definition exactly backwards.
Sorry, I was just reading the post that I replied to and quoted.
Making a deliberate policy choice that you will avoid sex with such people whether attracted to them or not is a symptom of homophobia, not a definition for it.
OK. But...and I can only speak for myself...it wasn't a deliberate policy choice to avoid sex with someone I was attracted to. It was a statement about my attraction.
I'm fearing another bout of incredulity.
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My claims were about my particular orientation
Your claim was that I reacted incredulously to your particular orientation. I have never done so. The only way your claim makes any sense at all is if you're lumping all the things I've been saying about transphobia and homophobia under the "orientation" umbrella, and doing that is an implicit claim that those things follow inevitably from the orientation.
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[Citation needed]
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Your claim was that I reacted incredulously to your particular orientation.
Yes.
The only way your claim makes any sense at all is if you're lumping all the things I've been saying about transphobia and homophobia under the "orientation" umbrella, and doing that is an implicit claim that those things follow inevitably from the orientation.
Ah, and there it is. You are incredulous that there is an element to my feelings of sexual attraction.
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If you have sound arguments in opposition to that position, let's see them.
You first.
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That doesn't sound correct. Let's use the wikipedia definition:
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Try deriving it from phobia.
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You are incredulous that there is an element to my feelings of sexual attraction.
?REDO FROM START
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I think you have at least one step missing between this:
So if you're making a deliberate choice to rule out any sexual encounter that you would describe as homosexual, you're not doing that because of heterosexuality
and this:
the fact of making that choice is an expression of some degree of homophobia.
Also this part needs more support:
you're not doing that because of heterosexuality
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?REDO FROM START
You keep rejecting things I say about myself because you find the claim, effectively, incredulous. You tried to support your incredulity with some logic that doesn't apply, since it implies that I would have said the opposite of what I said.
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I'll give you that. Still, I stand by my statement that "disgust and terror" at the idea of taking part in homosexual acts is textbook homophobia.
I personally don't have sex with men because I don't feel attracted to men. Even men that turn out to be @Maciejasjmj's cousin and / or sister.
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You keep rejecting things I say about myself because you find the claim, effectively, incredulous.
No, I keep rejecting things you post which are incomprehensible gibberish I can't parse even after exercising considerable imagination to account for what kind of typo could possibly have given rise to them.
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No, I keep rejecting things you post which are incomprehensible gibberish I can't parse even after exercising considerable imagination
Yes, exactly. What is it you say about people around here? They refuse to be educated or accept the views of others or something?
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I think you have at least one step missing between this:
So if you're making a deliberate choice to rule out any sexual encounter that you would describe as homosexual, you're not doing that because of heterosexuality
and this:
the fact of making that choice is an expression of some degree of homophobia.
Also this part needs more support:
you're not doing that because of heterosexuality
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Heterosexuality is a sexual orientation. This should be uncontroversial.
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Sexual orientation is a description of sexual attraction. This should also be uncontroversial.
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Sexual attraction happens or does not happen, independent of choice. The consistent failure of conversion therapies to achieve alterations in orientation are evidence for this.
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Therefore, if you are making choices about who you will and won't have sex with, and those choices are made on any basis other than who you experience attraction to, then those choices are independent of your sexual orientation.
Let me know if any of the above are problematic before we go any further.
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I personally don't have sex with men because I don't feel attracted to men. Even men that turn out to be @Maciejasjmj's cousin and / or sister.
You go out, you get shitfaced, you wake up naked, being spooned by @Lorne_Kates with the smell of sex in the air.
How do you feel? ;)
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You go out, you get shitfaced, you wake up naked, being spooned by @Lorne_Kates with the smell of sex in the air.
How do you feel?
With my hands.
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OK, it looks like you have this part covered:
you're not doing that because of heterosexuality
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Repulsed but slightly aroused. In other news I need help with web development.
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@boomzilla said:
You are incredulous that there is an element to my feelings of sexual attraction.
?REDO FROM START
"that there is an element to my feelings of sexual attraction"
What does that even mean? I've not even got as far as being incredulous about whatever that is, because I can't actually interpret those words as a coherent idea.
Homophobia - Wikipedia
