Mrguyorama defends Gibberish
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Ditto regarding your 99% figure.
I'll also accept a rational argument.
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I'd wager it's more like 90%
More importantly is it doesn't matter. There isn't enough reason to create the feature. A person dual-booting Windows and something non-Windows (other than for fun/testing/"geek" cred) is an exceptional case. It is a waste of Microsoft's time, money, and resources, especially when there are functional workarounds
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It is a waste of Microsoft's time, money, and resources,
That
wouldexplains a lot of things.
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It is a waste of Microsoft's time, money, and resources, especially when there are functional workarounds
The feeling is pretty much mutual.
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This post is deleted!
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No? Their tech savvy friend puts the misconfigured bootloader on their computer, tech-illiterate dude installs windows, windows overwrites bootloader, windows boots perfectly normal
Do you realize how unlikely that scenario is?First: there must be a need to install custom bootloader. There isn't any for Windows users and I never heard anyone claiming otherwise - so it's surely less likely than e.g. disabling ASLR. And how many people do you know who disable ASLR?
Second: if someone has a "tech savvy friend", it's almost always his job to install the system, and he's much more likely to know what he's doing. The "almost" is for situations where one person has multiple "tech savvy friends", so it'd not always be the bootloader guy who would end up reinstalling Windows.
Third: even if somehow a computer illiterate person ends up installing Windows, 999 out of 1000 times they'd just hit "Yes" or "Ok", with or without reading the message box - which would Just Work™.
Fourth: The two people in the world capable of getting through all of the above obstacles to do the stupid thing, one of them would try again before doing anything else, most probably with default settings this time, and the other would post a rant in all caps on this very forum and receive unwanted help from fellow users rather than call helpdesk.
So, no, there wouldn't be any calls related to this on MS helpdesk. And they already receive millions of stupid calls everyday anyway so who cares?
A person dual-booting Windows and something non-Windows (other than for fun/testing/"geek" cred) is an exceptional case.
A person who use Ctrl+Insert is an exceptional case too, yet they handle it in all their programs. So is someone who creates their own power plans (as opposed to using one of 3 defaults, and editing those), yet they made a whole control panel section dedicated to just this. I'm sure bootloader checking would require several times less resources than this (one man-day tops, including testing), especially since they already check for bootloader, but for different reason.is a waste of Microsoft's time, money, and resources, especially when there are functional workarounds
There are workarounds for 100% of features new in Windows 10. Is Windows 10 a waste of time, money and resources?
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No, fuck off. This is a perfectly easy to solve problem. Stop pretending otherwise.
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Doesn't matter how easy it is to solve. Solving it brings zero dollars to Microsoft
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- You, as a typical thinks-he's-tech-savvy "power user", decide to stick a middle finger out and install yourself an Ubuntu. It works fine.
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monthweekday later, you realize your favourite game doesn't run, and you install Windows back - You obviously choose the "don't overwrite MBR" option - no smelly Windows will be overtaking my PC!
- The install completes, you reboot, and OMFG WHERE'S MY WINDOWS YOU STUPID M$$$ ASSHOLES, because it has no idea how to hook into GRUB or LILO.
Bottom line is, if you're good enough to actually make Windows work with GRUB, you're also good enough to restore GRUB.
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No, fuck off. This is a perfectly easy to solve problem. Stop pretending otherwise.
Sure, if you expect a system to use a MBR. But what about systems that use UEFI instead? Then you have to consider that this is really only a problem on upgrades and initial installs, so that's a narrows the problem profile. We should also consider that most Microsoft customers are actually businesses, and they aren't likely to worry about dual boot. The problem profile is narrowed even further. And among personal systems, there's no doubt that the majority aren't dual boot, so we're talking a very small profile on this issue. The people who do have dual boot systems have the technical proficiency to manage such systems, so while the feature under discussion would be a convenience, it isn't a necessity.
What would be the benefit to Microsoft to solve this problem? From their point of view, it isn't worth the effort because it is so low-profile, those affected know how to resolve it on their own, and solving it provides no benefit to Microsoft.
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There is also the fact that it is already solved
As Anonymous already said: BCEdit
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Doesn't matter how easy it is to solve. Solving it brings zero dollars to Microsoft
You know what else brings zero dollars to M$? Paint. Yet they recreated it from scratch for Windows 7.The install completes, you reboot, and OMFG WHERE'S MY WINDOWS YOU STUPID M$$$ ASSHOLES
Not much different than what is now, except it makes it impossible to boot whatever was already there, making the word "assholes" very appropriate.Bottom line is, if you're good enough to actually make Windows work with GRUB, you're also good enough to restore GRUB.
But it's fucking annoying.
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But it's fucking annoying.
To which MS says "whatever, you wanted Linux, here's a taste of things to come. Have fun with bcdedit."
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You know what else brings zero dollars to M$? Paint. Yet they recreated it from scratch for Windows 7.
Average user would probably bitch if paint wasn't on their computer, assuming no suitable alternative of course. Look at how much junk on youtube/newgrounds/whatever is done in MSPaint. And if you have to give them something, you might as well meet their expectations for what it should look like and do.
The average user, meanwhile, does not know what the hell a bootloader is, nor will they ask for it to work with an alternative one. Too few people are asking for Windows to support alternative bootloaders
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...which is a far better argument against this feature than all this money and resources talk, let alone the "idiots will DDoS helpdesks" line.
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If you go back and read, you will notice I said A customer. A single source is not a DDoS. Microsoft doesn't NEED lock in to keep its money flowing. Enterprise installations are not going down. They also allow Linux servers on Azure now. Take that for dead set on lock in
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Average user would probably bitch if paint wasn't on their computer, assuming no suitable alternative of course.
And to prevent the users from losing the program that was always there, they decided to... remake it, instead of just copying it over from Vista?Look at how much junk on youtube/newgrounds/whatever is done in MSPaint. And if you have to give them something, you might as well meet their expectations for what it should look like and do.
Wait - did MS fail for fifteen years to meet expectations of eight years old attention whores with no drawing skill whatsoever?The average user, meanwhile, does not know what the hell a bootloader is
And they would be unaffected. There are like 20 techniques to make options usable for power users yet without encouraging idiots to click through them.nor will they ask for it to work with an alternative one
No one ever said anything about working with alternative bootloaders in this topic.If you go back and read, you will notice I said A customer. A single source is not a DDoS.
Which makes your argument even more stupid.Microsoft doesn't NEED lock in to keep its money flowing. Enterprise installations are not going down. They also allow Linux servers on Azure now. Take that for dead set on lock in
I think topic edit is in order.....and done.
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Paint. Yet they recreated it from scratch for Windows 7.
Bullshit. Yes, they added the ribbon to tie it into Office and enhanced a few other features, but a complete rewrite? Bullshit.
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Bullshit. Yes, they added the ribbon to tie it into Office and enhanced a few other features, but a complete rewrite? Bullshit.
I'm pretty sure the ribbon is like 30% of Paint code, and ten new brushes another 20%. Add my usual overexaggeration and you get complete rewrite.
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I'm pretty sure the ribbon is like 30% of Paint code, and ten new brushes another 20%.
Nice ass-pulls.
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Have you ever written simple tools like Paint? I did, and basic GUI accounts for the great majority of code. The brushes part might have been too harsh, though.
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Now that you mention it - as Notepad is essentially a multiline .NET TextBox with a GUI wrapped around it and WordPad essentially a .NET RichTextBox with a GUI wrapped around it, I wonder why I don't find a PaintBox in Visual Studio's ToolBox.
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I think it's because simple graphics editor is useless in most applications, unlike the other two examples you provided.
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You're probably right and I should go to bed - it's 00:40 (12:40 AM) here and I've had a long day.
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It still comes down to, this is a feature request by you and like seventeen other people want. How much money are you willing to throw at it?
Also squee My own topic
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I wonder how many people requested Crayola brush for Paint...
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To which MS says "whatever, you wanted Linux, here's a taste of things to come. Have fun with bcdedit."
To which I say...fuck that shit, and boot a live cd and unbreak what MS broke.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FoeYay
Filed under: it's probably already on DeviantArt
...I can make that happen.
But I like to think I'm better than that.
Except I've already got an image in my mind...
I even know what the money quote is...
and what style it would be done in...
Thanks be unto reason! You people really don't want to see this.
Well, some of you might want too. But you're obviously not who I'm talking about.<accalia, blakeyrat, you really shouldn't read this.
<You neither, Ms. Hedgehog.<You know what, I don't think I'll put the money quote(s) here. But they do exist, in a file with the original text of this post.
Accayrat? blakeylia? Eeww. Worst. Shipping. Ever.
Blakeycalia. Or maybe Blæcalia.
<Okay, not much better than that, apparently.Filed under: does anyone here even know what Blakey looks like?
What makes you think their real appearances matter for our purposes? @blakeyrat would be an anthropomorphic rat, and @accalia would be an anthropomorphic fox, of course.
Third: even if somehow a computer illiterate person ends up installing Windows, 999 out of 1000 times they'd just hit "Yes" or "Ok", with or without reading the message box - which would Just Work™.
I wouldn't even bother with the message box. Just put it under an Advanced menu or stick it in with other options without making it look different. A message box brings an unnecessary amount of attention to it.
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-urp- i think i'm going to be sick......
So shall I put you down for a vote for "blechalia", then?
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Hey that's Yume Nikki! That was a cool game
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it's not much better.... but it is a little better than shipping me with the rat...
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it's not much better.... but it is a little better than shipping me with the rat...
<Wait, was that image /not/ supposed to indicate morning sickness? />
<Because that was supposed to be a pun.. />
<Er, ::ahem:: />
Well, one does what one can for the Sultanatrix.
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Looking at browser statistics, the percentage of Linux/BSD/... - users seem to be anything between 1.5% and up to 5.5% for some sites. That was not too hard to find out, rather than this idiotic guessing all the time. How many of these that use a dual boot setup is harder to find out because of raisins. There may also be an unknown number of servers where there is no web browser installed.
Please note that this is also a different statistics than the one previously discussed (i.e., how many tech-savvy users install a non-MS bootloader on someone elses computer and then dump it in the lap of a non-tech-savvy user to do subsequent Windows upgrades). I just mention it to get to my next point, which is:
Unless you have been sleeping under a s(h)ill for the past 15 years, you may have noticed that Microsoft really want those <5% back to using Windows. Annoying those users by making it harder for them to have their operating system of choice co-exist with Windows is not a successful strategy for this.
Then there's the hardware manufacturers. They go through all the trouble making hardware that is generic and works for any operating system and then all of their effort gets blasted out of the water by Microsofts arrogant monopolist business decisions on bootloader features (because there's no business case to cater for the exceptional case). If the hardware manufacturers are just going to take this lying down, they may just as well install microsoft's bootloader on chip along with minesweep and solitaire. That would be cheaper for them too, and equally inline with the "screw the non-windows crowd" business strategy.
On another note, I find it intersting that if the tables had been turned there is at least one other user on this forum who would have been yelling "its a BUG! Open source bootloaders are developed by IDIOTS!". The silence speaks volumes, hypocrite.
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Please note that this is also a different statistics than the one previously discussed (i.e., how many tech-savvy users install a non-MS bootloader on someone elses computer and misconfigure it and then dump it in the lap of a non-tech-savvy user to do subsequent Windows upgrades).
FTFY
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install microsoft's bootloader on chip along with minesweep and solitaire.
Not anymore. Minesweeper™ and Solitaire™ are pay-per-year software since Windows 10.
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[citation needed]
This is the first English reference I found: http://www.pcgamer.com/windows-10-solitaire-requires-a-subscription-to-remove-ads/
... Well, it seems I forgot that there was an Adware version for free too. AFAIR, that meant 30 seconds of ad videos before you could play 30 to 90 seconds. So, "free" as in "for something that is not directly money".
It seems Microsoft backpedaled a bit since the beta.
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overwrite
Shit Gąska, have you been arguing for hours about something that never even happened again? Uefi has been standard since at least 2010, which is about when grub 2 started making headway against it's predecessor. Back in grub legacy days, grldr was easy as piss to setup and chainloaded the not overwritten linux bootloader flawlessly. Meanwhile in the present day you shouldn't be installing things to mbr in the first place.
So when Windows was writing to mbr, Linux was installing it's boot loaders to partitions, and when the technology got released to allow multiple OSes to coexist, Linux started telling it's users to disable that feature of their systems, because it seemed like too much of a hassle to support.
Your name is really appropriate, because you just love sending people off on a wild goose chase, don't you?
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Shit Gąska, have you been arguing for hours about something that never even happened again?
We have arguments about AppleScript from time to time over here; the bootloader argument doesn't seem that ridiculous in comparison.Uefi has been standard since at least 2010, which is about when grub 2 started making headway against it's predecessor.
its*Back in grub legacy days, grldr was easy as piss to setup and chainloaded the not overwritten linux bootloader flawlessly.
I don't know what grldr is and Google is not helpful here, so I have no way to address that.Meanwhile in the present day you shouldn't be installing things to mbr in the first place.
And in the zeroth place, no one dual-boots at all nowadays, thanks to largely improved virtualization technology. So the discussion is even more pointless than you think.So when Windows was writing to mbr, Linux was installing it's boot loaders to partitions, and when the technology got released to allow multiple OSes to coexist, Linux started telling it's users to disable that feature of their systems, because it seemed like too much of a hassle to support.
its*Your name is really appropriate, because you just love sending people off on a wild goose chase, don't you?
This proverb doesn't exist in Polish, so no.
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@Polygeekery said:
Not by my classification. At worst, she spoke too absolutely. In reality though, most people would realize that she did not mean "since the Big Bang and until the heat death of the universe".
It's not like she's talking about oxygen. Microsoft has only existed for a very short amount of time (less than the lifetime of most(?) of the posters here), and Windows for even shorter. And fully half its history was before Windows XP. Surely it's not that hard to keep track of when the word "always" applies.
Microsoft passed the 40-year mark earlier this year. (Noted in reference to the length of the lifetime of posters here.) It's twenty years since the youngest of my colleagues (of the time) was born after Apollo 11 returned from the Moon, and it won't be long before I start having colleagues who were born after the first SMS-capable mobile phones were launched.
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That was a cool game
I love how the only thing that onebox tells me about the game is how it ends.
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At least we don't have to play it anymore!
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Microsoft passed the 40-year mark earlier this year. (Noted in reference to the length of the lifetime of posters here.) It's twenty years since the youngest of my colleagues (of the time) was born after Apollo 11 returned from the Moon, and it won't be long before I start having colleagues who were born after the first SMS-capable mobile phones were launched.
Great.
Thanks for sending me a notification for this useless post. You are a true hero to the people.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said:
Microsoft passed the 40-year mark earlier this year. (Noted in reference to the length of the lifetime of posters here.) It's twenty years since the youngest of my colleagues (of the time) was born after Apollo 11 returned from the Moon, and it won't be long before I start having colleagues who were born after the first SMS-capable mobile phones were launched.
Great.
Thanks for sending me a notification for this useless post. You are a true hero to the people.
Glad you liked it.
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Minesweeper™ and Solitaire™ are pay-per-year software since Windows 10.
Holy fuck.
:isnothingsacred.gif:
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It seems Microsoft backpedaled a bit since the beta.
Microsoft? Backpedaled? Surely some mistake, Shirley?
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On another note, I find it intersting that if the tables had been turned there is at least one other user on this forum who would have been yelling "its a BUG! Open source bootloaders are developed by IDIOTS!". The silence speaks volumes, hypocrite.
You do realize that @mrguyorama isn't the only one saying that Microsoft's current position on this makes sense? I even made a post about it that got likes from 3 people other than @mrguyorama. Apparently there are people who agree and aren't chiming in because they have nothing new to add.
Now, go work on pulling your foot out of your mouth.
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You do realize that @mrguyorama isn't the only one saying that Microsoft's current position on this makes sense?
Some people are just compelled to be apologists for buggy software. We get it.
