Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs
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Return and Enter Are Two Different Keys
A New York Times mini crossword clue over the weekend was based on the notion that “Enter” is just a synonym for the Return key. It’s not. They’re two different keys that usually perform the same action, but not always.
My keyboard only has two Enter keys, no Return keys.
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All keyboards have a dedicated Return key — it’s the big key you’re thinking of above the right Shift key.
Both of the keyboards on my desk have two Enter keys.
On a Mac, the key code when you press Return is 36, and the glyph for the key is ↵.
Its Mac key code is 76 and its glyph is ⌅.On my Macbook they're the same key.
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Is it just me or is this article unusually shortsighted and pendantic? Emphases mine:
A dedicated Enter key is generally only present on extended keyboards with a numeric keypad
you mean, all keyboards ever, expect the ones that had to leave out a bunch of things to fit on a laptop?
If your keyboard doesn’t have a dedicated Enter key, you can type the Enter key by pressing Fn-Return.
As if the Fn key was something standard, instead of whatever the laptop manufacturer dreamt up last night.
The author seems to live in a parallel universe where Windows never existed.
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@marczellm said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
you mean, all keyboards ever, expect the ones that had to leave out a bunch of things to fit on a laptop?
Not necessarily because keyboards with missing keys are becoming more and more comon on desktops, particularly with mechanical keyboard nerds.
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@loopback0 said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Not necessarily because keyboards with missing keys are becoming more and more comon on desktops, particularly with mechanical keyboard nerds.
The nerd designation I’ll accept, if grudgingly. But if you accuse me of wanting a keyboard without a number pad, we’re gonna fight.
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@izzion said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
But if you accuse me of wanting a keyboard without a number pad, we’re gonna fight.
Good job that I didn't then, eh?
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In pretty much every keyboard I've ever seen, the big Enter key and the small Enter key are both labeled as Enter. So it's really bad design for those two keys to do something different.
Fun fact: the regular dot key and the dot key on the numpad are also technically different keys and I've taken advantage of that when making a derived TextBox class on Winforms. When pressing the dot key on the numpad I swallow the dot and put the decimal number separator instead (which is usually a comma for our customers). If you want to enter a dot, you can just press the regular dot key.
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@magnusmaster said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
In pretty much every keyboard I've ever seen, the big Enter key and the small Enter key are both labeled as Enter. So it's really bad design for those two keys to do something different.
Let's survey my two keyboards:
Desktop (Corsair RGB keyboard): Both are Enter. And they're about the same size.
Laptop (Lenovo): Only one such key, labeled Enter. Not particularly big (double-width, but regular height).
TL;DR: I agree with you.
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@Benjamin-Hall The PC desktop next to me has two Enter keys. This laptop has one ↩ key. I can apparently make it do something different by pressing Fn, but I don't use the resulting ⌤ much.
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@marczellm said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
The author seems to live in a parallel universe where Windows never existed.
The author also thinks that markdown is great.
He started it, but I think he got away with it.
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This post is deleted!
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On my keyboard, both keys are labeled "OK". I feel weird.
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@dkf said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
I don't use the resulting ⌤ much.
⌤Hmpph!
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@boomzilla So the complaint is that the clue was "Computer key also called Return" to a solution of "ENTER".
But, so long as there are people who call Enter Return, regardless of whether they are right or wrong the clue is
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Hmm. This made me think back, and back, and back.
The picture referenced above shows an IBM 3279 mainframe terminal, including its keyboard. Note in the lower right of the main keyboard, where you have a "hollow" up arrow for Shift, and above it is a key labelled with the bent arrow we call "Return", and below the Shift key, there is a smaller key labelled Enter.
Return and Enter actually had radically different functions.
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@loopback0 said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
On a Mac, the key code when you press Return is 36, and the glyph for the key is ↵.
Its Mac key code is 76 and its glyph is ⌅.On my Macbook they're the same key.
@marczellm said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
If your keyboard doesn’t have a dedicated Enter key, you can type the Enter key by pressing Fn-Return.
Oh, so that's how it works. I assumed you'd have to type Shift+Return to get Enter. Not that I ever had the need to do that.
FWIW, all long keyboards here have a Return key ↵ on the main typewriter area and an Enter key on the numpad, but them having different scan codes is basically not used for anything. Maybe in games, but there you can set different functions even for e.g. left vs. right Shift.
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@topspin said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Oh, so that's how it works. I assumed you'd have to type Shift+Return to get Enter. Not that I ever had the need to do that.
For most purpose they’re the same, but use something like InDesign on a regular basis and you’ll find a use for Enter soon enough (it inserts an end-of-column, rather than an end-of-paragraph).
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@magnusmaster said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Fun fact: the regular dot key and the dot key on the numpad are also technically different keys
so much so that if a Hungarian keyboard layout is set, the numpad one inserts a , cause that's the decimal separator around here
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Just did a survey of my keyboards here:
- A new Logitech G213 has no key labelled "Enter". The one on the main part is labelled just with the bent arrow, and the one on the numeric pad is labelled "Entrée"... (Sorry.) The worst part is that "Entrée" doesn't mean "Enter", but rather "Entry" or "Entered".
- An older "Genius" branded thing has Entrée on both, but also the bent arrow on the main-part one. It's a full desktop keyboard, and consequently has no "Fn" key.
- A much older KeyTronic "ergoforce" that has the same labels as the Genius one. Again, no "Fn" key.
- A Dell laptop (telework PC) with one key with bent arrow and Entrée, and a "Fn" key.
- A Dell desktop keyboard with the same labels as the KeyTronic and the Genius, and no "Fn" key.
- An Asus RoG laptop, a big one with a 17 inch display and an actual numeric pad. The main keyboard one has the bent arrow, while the numeric pad one has the bent arrow and a symbol that looks like a calculator. Neither has either "Enter" nor "Entrée". There is a "Fn" key.
- An oldish Logitech K120 that has both keys labelled with just "Entrée" and no bent arrow on either.
- Two miniature cordless jobbies "attached" to RPis. One is QWERTY and the other is AZERTY, and both have a single Enter/bent-arrow key, but pressing them with "Fn" is labelled as Ctrl+Alt+Del... (OK, granted, Ctrl+Alt+Del is a different thing than either Enter or Return, but I didn't really expect that to be a logical function for Fn+Enter.)
- A medium-old CMStorm "QuickFire" from Japan in Japanese-QWERTY compact no-numeric "106". It has one bent-arrow and no "Enter", and a "Fn". No idea what Fn+bent-arrow will do.
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@dkf said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@Benjamin-Hall The PC desktop next to me has two Enter keys. This laptop has one ↩ key. I can apparently make it do something different by pressing Fn, but I don't use the resulting ⌤ much.
Oh, really? I think I'd use a paper airplane key all the time.
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Nothing better to do, so I'll check my keyboards too:
Clevo laptop: bent arrow on both, numpad also says "Enter". Fn+either does the same thing as no Fn.
Dell laptop: too small for numpad, only has bent arrow. Not switching it on just to test what Fn does.
Desktop (HyperX Alloy Core): both only say "Enter". Has a Fn key, but it's just for controlling the lighting.
Old spare USB keyboardthat I stole from work, branding has worn off, model number has no Google results: "Enter" on both, main one also has bent arrow. Has a Fn key that doesn't seem to do anything.
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Instructions unclear, dick caught in keyboard.
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@pie_flavor said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
dick caught in keyboard.
Looks like we're gonna need a microscope to find that.
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@topspin said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@pie_flavor said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
dick caught in keyboard.
Looks like we're gonna need a microscope to find that.
THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID
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@pie_flavor ironically enough, despite this being a very good keyboard, it was obtained very cheaply at a yard sale. Why? Because the previous owner could not touch-type, and so could not operate the keyboard for the life of her. It never occurred to her to take a silver sharpie to it.
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@Zecc said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@boomzilla So the complaint is that the clue was "Computer key also called Return" to a solution of "ENTER".
But, so long as there are people who call Enter Return, regardless of whether they are right or wrong the clue is
It's like the
ry about the name of the part of the taskbar with all the tiny icons of thing running in the background. It may not be called the "tray" by Microsoft, but that's what it's called by a lot of people, and everyone knows what you're talking about when you say it
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What do I have nearby:
- desktop keyboard: Enter and Enter
- HP work laptop: ↩
- Macbook: "enter return"
- Lenovo work laptop: Enter and Enter
- Dell work tablet (keyboard cover): Entrée ↩
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@hungrier said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@Zecc said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@boomzilla So the complaint is that the clue was "Computer key also called Return" to a solution of "ENTER".
But, so long as there are people who call Enter Return, regardless of whether they are right or wrong the clue is
It's like the
ry about the name of the part of the taskbar with all the tiny icons of thing running in the background. It may not be called the "tray" by Microsoft, but that's what it's called by a lot of people, and everyone knows what you're talking about when you say itPeople call it the tray because it looks(1) kinda like a tray and (more importantly) it is called / has a window class name of "SysTray" or something like that.
(1) YMMVAMCD(2) on Windows 10, but back when it first appeared, in Windows 95, it looked more like a tray than it does now.
(2) YMMV And Mine Certainly Does.
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Seems my Lenovo gaming laptop only has an Enter key, same for my Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. The Fn keys don't change anything (although the UHK could be programmed to do so).
My antique IBM keyboards are somewhat varied though. The first IBM PC seems to have just the ↩ key whereas the "AT" model has a key labeled ↩ Enter. The numpad has no Enter or Return keys.
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@hungrier said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@Zecc said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@boomzilla So the complaint is that the clue was "Computer key also called Return" to a solution of "ENTER".
But, so long as there are people who call Enter Return, regardless of whether they are right or wrong the clue is
It's like the
ry about the name of the part of the taskbar with all the tiny icons of thing running in the background. It may not be called the "tray" by Microsoft, but that's what it's called by a lot of people, and everyone knows what you're talking about when you say itHeh. KDE (5) calls it the "System Tray."
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@hungrier said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@Zecc said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@boomzilla So the complaint is that the clue was "Computer key also called Return" to a solution of "ENTER".
But, so long as there are people who call Enter Return, regardless of whether they are right or wrong the clue is
It's like the
ry about the name of the part of the taskbar with all the tiny icons of thing running in the background. It may not be called the "tray" by Microsoft, but that's what it's called by a lot of people, and everyone knows what you're talking about when you say itThe irony is that even Microsoft calls it tray, and has been since Windows 95 times. By mistake, and unapproved by marketing team, but it's still in official materials.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
People call it the tray because it looks(1) kinda like a tray and (more importantly) it is called / has a window class name of "SysTray" or something like that.
IIRC the name "systray" was used specifically for the application that implemented the clock and volume control icons on old versions of Windows
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@hungrier IIRC I read on The Old New Thing that a tray was a cut feature, something about organizing apps at the bottom of the screen, but the tray program was already capable of displaying clock and volume so it was repurposed to only do that (I'm pretty sure volume used to be separate from the rest of notification icons?). Then users figured out that killing SYSTRAY.EXE removed the clock, and put two and two together - badly.
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My Microsoft keyboard has a key labelled
Enter ↩Now I'm confused and want to go home. (Wait. I am home.)
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@GOG It does Enter and Return... that's why it outputs
\r\n.
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@Captain Now you are making sense. Please desist forthwith.
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@izzion said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
But if you accuse me of wanting a keyboard without a number pad, we’re gonna fight.
I just put the number pad in Layer 2.
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@hungrier said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
- Macbook: "enter return"
Whereas on European (or all non-North American) Mac keyboards, the keys are labelled ↩͏ and ⌅.
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@marczellm said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@magnusmaster said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Fun fact: the regular dot key and the dot key on the numpad are also technically different keys
so much so that if a Hungarian keyboard layout is set, the numpad one inserts a , cause that's the decimal separator around here
Then why the hell does pressing the numpad dot on a Spanish keyboard layout insert a dot a not a comma? Because here the comma is the decimal separator but pressing the numpad dot inserts a dot
So I have to override the default TextBox to do that.
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@hungrier said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
It's like the
ry about the name of the part of the taskbar with all the tiny icons of thing running in the background. It may not be called the "tray" by Microsoft, but that's what it's called by a lot of people, and everyone knows what you're talking about when you say itIt's your fault when this discussion starts again.
edit: GODDAMMIT @hungrier
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@hungrier said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Entrée
Stop it, y'all! It's nowhere near dinner time, yet.
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@magnusmaster said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Then why the hell does pressing the numpad dot on a Spanish keyboard layout insert a dot a not a comma? Because here the comma is the decimal separator but pressing the numpad dot inserts a dot So I have to override the default TextBox to do that.
or tell your users to set their Spanish keyboards to a Hungarian layout
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@boomzilla Just want to ask, Ctrl-M that works both on Windows and VT-100, is that "Enter" or "Return"?
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@cheong
Ctrl+M sends the 0x0D "carriage return" character, and that page indicates that it would be the default character of the Return key in the main cluster of the keyboard.Not sure what a separate "Enter" key would send... I guess that if that key existed on IBM terminals that they had something special in their terminal protocols for it. They do not use VT100 after all, but instead have a block-based protocol which was aware of input fields.
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@JBert said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Not sure what a separate "Enter" key would send...
Ctrl+J (linefeed)
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@dkf said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
@JBert said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Not sure what a separate "Enter" key would send...
Ctrl+J (linefeed)
The article got that wrong then, I think Ctrl key is on most PC keyboards. (Except those numpad only ones, but those would have Enter key on them)
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Haven't read the article yet, butI haven't seen separate Return and Enterkey since my old Amstrad CPC 6128.My current Keyboard (a Dell French AZERTY) has keys Entrée↩for the big one and Entr for the numpad.
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@Medinoc said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Entrée↩
Doesn't seem very appetizing to me.
Filed under: The "Why do stupid Americans call a main course an entrée?" thread is
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@Medinoc said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Haven't read the article yet, butI haven't seen separate Return and Enterkey since my old Amstrad CPC 6128.Look at any Mac keyboard with a numeric keypad.
European Mac keyboards don’t have the names on them, but do have different symbols for the two keys:
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@HardwareGeek said in Next you'll tell me that vi and emacs are two different programs:
Filed under: The "Why do stupid Americans call a main course an entrée?" thread is
I've mentioned this oddity to French people(1) a couple of times. It does, indeed, get some strange looks.
(1) Er, French people who aren't me, that is.
IBM 3270 - Wikipedia
