Update on Administration & Community Changes
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@izzion also, mobile only shows the most recent post time.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@izzion See, things are getting better already!
Seriously, was that time added recently? Or am I TRWTF?
Yes, you are . That's been there since we started using NodeBB.
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@boomzilla Those particular times (sometime in 2020-07-15) have been added quite recently.
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@boomzilla I'm filling a bug your screenshot doesn't respect my custom CSS
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@boomzilla said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@izzion also, mobile only shows the most recent post time.
And notably, it does so in the place where the
desktopwide-window view shows the thread creation date.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@boomzilla I'm filling a bug your screenshot doesn't respect my custom CSS
I'll get right on that.
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@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
I don't want to talk about garage content here, but some people did something that almost made me ragequit the forum out of anger, and the only reason I haven't is because I have nowhere else to go to (online). Some people kept referencing that even years after - specifically because they know how much it pisses me off.
And I'm not the only one. There were a few people who actually left because of shit like that. Hell, the latest ban wave was directly caused by a certain person figuring out how to push the admin's buttons and using that knowledge to maximum effect.
Pissing people off and actually trying to hurt them are different things. You don't want to read things that make you angry - don't come to the garage. You don't want to be made fun of - don't share stupid things you did and come to the garage. Easy.
Although I admit I don't know what exactly you're talking about, so I may be completely wrong here.
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@PleegWat said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
I have seen forums which prevent necromancy using access restriction: If the last post in a thread is more than N months ago, only moderators can post to it, which automatically re-opens the topic for everyone else.
warns you if you're about to necro (which can get annoying because I don't actually know how to link to an old post without opening a reply, copying the url, then dismissing the reply). We could implement some softer access restriction of "everybody except
sockpuppet7fbmac" but that'd lose us one more forum meme.
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@topspin said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
but that'd lose us one more forum meme.
/giphy nothing of value was lost
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@MrL said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
I don't want to talk about garage content here, but some people did something that almost made me ragequit the forum out of anger, and the only reason I haven't is because I have nowhere else to go to (online). Some people kept referencing that even years after - specifically because they know how much it pisses me off.
And I'm not the only one. There were a few people who actually left because of shit like that. Hell, the latest ban wave was directly caused by a certain person figuring out how to push the admin's buttons and using that knowledge to maximum effect.
Pissing people off and actually trying to hurt them are different things.
It's not bullying if there's no physical contact? Is that what you mean? Because I absolutely did feel hurt by the words being said. Like, actually hurt. It was a personal attack, explicitly directed at me in particular. It wasn't just being angry, it was being the victim of targeted harassment. And they knew exactly how much I was hurting. Because when I asked them to stop because I'm hurting, they've only doubled down. And then people who WEREN'T part of the harassing group chimed in and told me it's all MY fault.
I really wanted to avoid sounding like a whiny bitch, but that's exactly the problem - people here find nothing wrong with targeted harassment and dismiss anyone raising the issue as being a whiny bitch. Sure, you're free to think that's a necessary part of garage culture and it wouldn't be the same without it - but please at least acknowledge that it's a thing, instead of claiming harassment doesn't happen.
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@Gąska I'd say ad hominem is never OK and verbal assault should be reported via flag. But I don't garage.
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@PleegWat I don't think a flag is very useful against an admin.
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@PleegWat said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Gąska I'd say ad hominem is never OK and verbal assault should be reported via flag. But I don't garage.
This clashes with the "death threats are valuable speech" philosophy. Just saying.
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@PleegWat said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@boomzilla said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@izzion also, mobile only shows the most recent post time.
And notably, it does so in the place where the
desktopwide-window view shows the thread creation date.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
We never did get to finish the back-and-forth story we were making in The Likes Thread.
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@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@PleegWat I don't think a flag is very useful against an admin.
Which circles back to the other discussion about moderators (admins, same difference) and diversity. I assume (hope?) that had we had a larger and more varied (in opinions and behaviour) moderation team, you would have felt more confident in flagging the behaviour of a mod. Irrespective of whether the behaviour really was at fault and the mod would have been reprimanded/punished for it, the simple fact that you didn't feel that reporting it was in anyway useful is telling.
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@remi there's that, but there's also that nobody, absolutely nobody took my side that it's going too far and they should tone down. It's me who was told to tone down - both by mods and by regular users.
Edit: what I mean is, it's not a problem with lack of diverse mods as much as a problem with overall culture of this place. @MrL is a great example (sorry, but it's true) - you're supposed to take absolutely everything flying at you, or you should unsubscribe from garage if you're such a pussy.
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@PleegWat said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@remi said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@bobjanova said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@remi said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
creating a thread is so expensive that we don't do it often
Is it technically expensive, or culturally?
Culturally. It's a running gag to complain that creating a thread is costly. I don't remember but there may also have been some quirk in that made this even more relevant. Some users (blakey...) were particularly adamant in telling people to create new threads, which by contrast and to spite them (him...) probably helped making it into a meme.
Somehow the fact this meme is still alive shows how the expected behaviour is to not create new ones... and how much this is part of the identity of the forums!
Actually, as I recall, discourse does not handle large threads well, and certainly the likes thread was created to showcase that.
Nope, The Official Likes Topic was created to test how handled a large volume of likes. The large threads was an ancillary. It's stated right in the OP:
@mott555 said in The Official Likes Topic:
This wouldn't be TDWTF without
abusingtesting forum features in ridiculous ways. So let this thread be the place where all users must like every single post. Let's see how many likes we can get and find out if Discourse can handle more of our insanity.
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@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Pissing people off and actually trying to hurt them are different things.
It's not bullying if there's no physical contact? Is that what you mean?
The difference is intent. When we're angry at someone, we tend to say things to intentionally hurt others ("you got really fat!"). When we're not being empathetic, we tend to say things that unintentionally hurt others ("you got really fat!").
Because when I asked them to stop because I'm hurting, they've only doubled down. And then people who WEREN'T part of the harassing group chimed in and told me it's all MY fault.
You aren't the first to say this, but I don't want this to happen again. Can we continue this dialog in chat? I want to learn more, privately!
Thanks
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@abarker said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@PleegWat said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@remi said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@bobjanova said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@remi said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
creating a thread is so expensive that we don't do it often
Is it technically expensive, or culturally?
Culturally. It's a running gag to complain that creating a thread is costly. I don't remember but there may also have been some quirk in that made this even more relevant. Some users (blakey...) were particularly adamant in telling people to create new threads, which by contrast and to spite them (him...) probably helped making it into a meme.
Somehow the fact this meme is still alive shows how the expected behaviour is to not create new ones... and how much this is part of the identity of the forums!
Actually, as I recall, discourse does not handle large threads well, and certainly the likes thread was created to showcase that.
Nope, The Official Likes Topic was created to test how handled a large volume of likes. The large threads was an ancillary. It's stated right in the OP:
@mott555 said in The Official Likes Topic:
This wouldn't be TDWTF without
abusingtesting forum features in ridiculous ways. So let this thread be the place where all users must like every single post. Let's see how many likes we can get and find out if Discourse can handle more of our insanity.And I do also recall that at one point we encountered problems with auto-locking topics in one post (where topics were auto-locked after an hour, causing a full table scan on the votes table). Was that one post category an invention of ours or a default feature?
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@topspin said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
I don't actually know how to link to an old post without opening a reply, copying the url, then dismissing the reply
- Right click on the post time (e.g., "31 minutes ago", "2 days ago").
- Select "Copy link address" from the context menu.
- ???
- Profit!!!
This has been Public Service Announcement.
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@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
It's not bullying if there's no physical contact? Is that what you mean?
No. I don't know if I can explain it any better than I already did.
There is a line no one here should cross. For me this line is before "I'm glad your kid died", but well after "you're a fucking retard" even if repeated 5 times a day for 6 months.I really wanted to avoid sounding like a whiny bitch, but that's exactly the problem - people here find nothing wrong with targeted harassment and dismiss anyone raising the issue as being a whiny bitch.
Maybe you are a whiny bitch? Own it and be proud of it. Don't let anyone tell you who you should be
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@topspin said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
access restriction of "everybody except sockpuppet7
This is the kind of personal attack I'd like to go
@izzion said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:nothing of value was lost
This is the kind of personal attacks I'd really like to go away
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@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@PleegWat I don't think a flag is very useful against an admin.
When there's a large enough moderation team, it can be. One forum I moderated had a flag come in against an administrator. The flag was handled just like any other, except the affected admin was omitted from the process "internal" part of the process.
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@sockpuppet7
My apologies — the antecedent of my post was “a (generic, nonspecific) forum meme”, not any specific meme or target of said memes.
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@topspin said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@PleegWat said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Gąska I'd say ad hominem is never OK and verbal assault should be reported via flag. But I don't garage.
This clashes with the "death threats are valuable speech" philosophy. Just saying.
Well, I definitely hope that philosophy is up for discussion in this context. Even if you want to allow trolling and heated flame wars, there have got to be lines somewhere and I thought this discussion was about defining them.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@topspin said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
access restriction of "everybody except sockpuppet7
This is the kind of personal attack I'd like to go
You always played along with the meme so I thought you're fine with it
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@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@remi there's that, but there's also that nobody, absolutely nobody took my side that it's going too far and they should tone down. It's me who was told to tone down - both by mods and by regular users.
I don't want to rehash it all but I thought then and still think that you never actually understood what we were telling you.
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@boomzilla I don't want to rehash it either but I don't think me not understanding was the problem even if I did.
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@Gąska I know.
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@boomzilla your further behavior towards me after that incident indicates that you don't (or at least didn't).
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@dfdub said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@topspin said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@PleegWat said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Gąska I'd say ad hominem is never OK and verbal assault should be reported via flag. But I don't garage.
This clashes with the "death threats are valuable speech" philosophy. Just saying.
Well, I definitely hope that philosophy is up for discussion in this context. Even if you want to allow trolling and heated flame wars, there have got to be lines somewhere and I thought this discussion was about defining them.
I'd link to it, but I think Alex deleted the post / surrounding discussion, as it was derailing his moderator nomination thread. Suffice to say a good number of denizens consider all moderation to be excessive censorship.
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@PleegWat said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Was that one post category an invention of ours or a default feature?
Ours.
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@MrL said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
For me this line is before "I'm glad your kid died", but well after "you're a fucking retard" even if repeated 5 times a day for 6 months.
You need your line recalibrated to be less of a dick.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@MrL said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
For me this line is before "I'm glad your kid died", but well after "you're a fucking retard" even if repeated 5 times a day for 6 months.
You need your line recalibrated to be less of a dick.
Being less of a dick is not my goal.
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@MrL exempli gratia.
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@MrL said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@e4tmyl33t said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@MrL said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
For me this line is before "I'm glad your kid died", but well after "you're a fucking retard" even if repeated 5 times a day for 6 months.
You need your line recalibrated to be less of a dick.
Being less of a dick is not my goal.
Sorry, I'll clarify.
You need your line recalibrated. Be less of a dick.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
You need your line recalibrated. Be less of a dick.
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
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From my perspective[1], I don't have a problem with megatopics. In fact, I kinda prefer them. For a couple reasons.
- Way less overhead. If each topic has 2-5 posts, then I'd spend lots of time bouncing back to the main unread/recent screen. Probably more than I would actually reading things.
- I know where to post little one-post things that are jokes, jabs, or other minor s. Or statuses. Real things still get a thread of their own, but I don't post much of that.
One of the big reasons I frequent this forum is to watch the back and forth and topic drift. It's people-watching, but online. I consider a large part of this forum (and the denizens) a long-running experiment in performance art. People have personas, and those personas interact in odd sorts of ways that can be quite amusing, as long as you realize it's performance art.
I came to this conclusion after watching people drastically change in the Help threads. Those get self-policed and are actually way more helpful than most other places on the internet. I've learned bucket-tons from the people here, and they've always been sincerely trying to help. And then back to the other topics, where they spar, troll, be to the extreme, etc.
[1] I don't post as much as the regulars. I was a lurker for quite a while before joining (to ask a question, actually IIRC). But my unread count for non-ignored threads[2] is constantly at zero. Yes, I read through the entire thread in detail.
[2] which are almost always either game threads (no interest), NSFL threads (sorry @error), or a few others where it's a topic I have no desire to follow.
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@izzion @Gaska It sounded like you were angry with something. I dunno about memes, I took it for serious, as this forum is no strange to having special rules for specific users in it's code
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@topspin said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Suffice to say a good number of denizens consider all moderation to be excessive censorship.
Unless they can name very good reasons for that stance, I'll chose not to share that view. I guess everyone has to have extreme views about something.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@izzion @Gaska It sounded like you were angry with something. I dunno about memes, I took it for serious, as this forum is no strange to having special rules for specific users in it's code
I'm not gonna lie, the deletions could get very annoying sometimes. But the posts in this topic - and most others - are meant as friendly jokes; a faux-outrage at most. Same with necroing.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
From my perspective[1], I don't have a problem with megatopics. In fact, I kinda prefer them. For a couple reasons.
- Way less overhead. If each topic has 2-5 posts, then I'd spend lots of time bouncing back to the main unread/recent screen. Probably more than I would actually reading things.
- I know where to post little one-post things that are jokes, jabs, or other minor s. Or statuses. Real things still get a thread of their own, but I don't post much of that.
I agree with that. I've learned my way around the megathreads and know where to go to read what I'm interested in. And topic drift is the result of conversation, the opposite of being restricted to a strict format à la Stack Overflow, where even comments get deleted.
But the criticisms about accessibility are valid. As I've mentioned before, in the days when I got back to lurking only, I'd occasionally check the side bar and it always looked like there'd been nothing new for ages.
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@topspin said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
From my perspective[1], I don't have a problem with megatopics. In fact, I kinda prefer them. For a couple reasons.
- Way less overhead. If each topic has 2-5 posts, then I'd spend lots of time bouncing back to the main unread/recent screen. Probably more than I would actually reading things.
- I know where to post little one-post things that are jokes, jabs, or other minor s. Or statuses. Real things still get a thread of their own, but I don't post much of that.
I agree with that. I've learned my way around the megathreads and know where to go to read what I'm interested in. And topic drift is the result of conversation, the opposite of being restricted to a strict format à la Stack Overflow, where even comments get deleted.
But the criticisms about accessibility are valid. As I've mentioned before, in the days when I got back to lurking only, I'd occasionally check the side bar and it always looked like there'd been nothing new for ages.
I can see the issue. But I'd hate for megatopics to go away or get hobbled in some way. I rarely use the category view, and I mainly use the link color to see if there's unread posts. But I'm a voracious reader, so likely an outlier.
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@Benjamin-Hall you'd be surprised.
My idea about hiding old posts (with an option to unhide it) is based on my own experience with megatopics, which is that I usually only care about the last few days of discussion. Usually I read everything else before that point, but even sometimes when I discover a megatopic I haven't read in a long time, I still skip to the last page anyway.
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@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Benjamin-Hall you'd be surprised.
My idea about hiding old posts (with an option to unhide it) is based on my own experience with megatopics, which is that I usually only care about the last few days of discussion. Usually I read everything else before that point, but even sometimes when I discover a megatopic I haven't read in a long time, I still skip to the last page anyway.
Surprised about what? Being an outlier?
Maybe have a dialog that says "this is a very long topic dating back years. Do you want to skip to near the end or start at the beginning?" with buttons to do either one. But only the first time you enter the thread. So people like me, who want to skim through the rest of the thread can, but those who want to jump into the action can do so.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Benjamin-Hall you'd be surprised.
My idea about hiding old posts (with an option to unhide it) is based on my own experience with megatopics, which is that I usually only care about the last few days of discussion. Usually I read everything else before that point, but even sometimes when I discover a megatopic I haven't read in a long time, I still skip to the last page anyway.
Surprised about what? Being an outlier?
About not being an outlier at all because everyone does that.
Maybe have a dialog that says "this is a very long topic dating back years. Do you want to skip to near the end or start at the beginning?" with buttons to do either one. But only the first time you enter the thread. So people like me, who want to skim through the rest of the thread can, but those who want to jump into the action can do so.
+1
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Maybe have a dialog that says "this is a very long topic dating back years. Do you want to skip to near the end or start at the beginning?" with buttons to do either one. But only the first time you enter the thread. So people like me, who want to skim through the rest of the thread can, but those who want to jump into the action can do so.
Topics already have buttons for "go to the start" and "go to the end".
Just need to drop them at the first post, which has guidance for megatopics and tells them they're free to click whichever they want.
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@loopback0 said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Maybe have a dialog that says "this is a very long topic dating back years. Do you want to skip to near the end or start at the beginning?" with buttons to do either one. But only the first time you enter the thread. So people like me, who want to skim through the rest of the thread can, but those who want to jump into the action can do so.
Topics already have buttons for "go to the start" and "go to the end".
Just need to drop them at the first post, which has guidance for megatopics and tells them they're free to click whichever they want.The key things, I think, are
- noting that something is a megatopic and so subject to drift and likely the first whole chunk are outdated. This is a forum culture/expectations thing that can be surprising for new people. For better or worse, we've adopted the "topics as sub-categories" mentality here. Which is very different than many(?) other forums, which prefer lots of little topics.
- Making the skip options clearly marked. It took quite a while for me to realize that that's what those did.
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Is this still about megatopics? If you gaze long into a megatopic, the megatopic also gazes back into you. Be careful then that in your discussion about megatopics this doesn't become a megatopic itself.