Bethesda dealing with Fallout
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Forced upgrades, overzealous censorship, phone games, banning esports champions. It seems like Blizzard is making some pretty shit decisions, but at least you can still play their games on Geforce N--
GeForce Now loses all Activision Blizzard titles weeks after launch
Overwatch, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft and more affected.
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@hungrier Guess NVIDIA ain't got no phones either.
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@cvi But they have Shields! Which nowadays just seems to be a smart TV thingie rather than a gaming tablet...
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How does this dumpster fire keep burning? Sunk cost fallacy? Or is it actually in the black somehow?
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@Applied-Mediocrity I'd say it's more of a coal mine fire at this point. A dumpster fire can be put out. Not so much when it's a coal mine burning...
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
Or is it actually in the black somehow?
The sad truth is that it's probably approaching break-even due to a bunch of whales who spend hundreds on microtransactions.
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Heh. Yeah, so they've done something to the 'bryo. It feels... more smooth. And that's not just because it looks like hammered shit from like 2014. Which it does. Bleeeurgh. So I went from the Vault to some almost useless NPCs, on the road some gun wielding ghouls spawned out of thin air, I completed 5 challenges by doing pretty much nothing, then I reached the quest marker and almost got shot by an angry L5 robot (I was L2 at this time). That's all for today.
It's on the free weekend, anyway...
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Oh, Bethesda.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/gjzi01/why_you_should_remove_doom_eternal_denuvo/
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@loopback0
Unfortunately, this is not even unusual anymore. I recently purchased Halo MCC and had to find out that it came with a kernel driver as well. Hadn't bought PC games in a while and that didn't exactly convince me to move from console to PC again.My plan to move my PC games to a dedicated VM with GPU passthrough, which I originally just wanted to do to see how well it'd work, sounds more and more reasonable every day.
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@dfdub said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
Unfortunately, this is not even unusual anymore. I recently purchased Halo MCC and had to find out that it came with a kernel driver as well.
At least Halo MCC a) had that from the start, b) doesn't use Denuvo, and c) does actually have a "run without anti-cheat" option which does keep you out of matchmaking games but otherwise allows the game to work.
Doom: Eternal has added Denuvo anti-cheat in an update, and it's mandatory even if you're not using multi-player.
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@loopback0 said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
c) does actually have a "run without anti-cheat" option which does keep you out of matchmaking games but otherwise allows the game to work.
Which is nice, but I really don't want that shit to be installed on my PC in the first place. Not having to actually use it doesn't decrease the attack surface.
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@dfdub said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@loopback0 said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
c) does actually have a "run without anti-cheat" option which does keep you out of matchmaking games but otherwise allows the game to work.
Which is nice, but I really don't want that shit to be installed on my PC in the first place. Not having to actually use it doesn't decrease the attack surface.
You can uninstall Easycheat (which Halo uses) and then use the "without anti-cheat" option.
https://www.easy.ac/en-us/support/game/guides/installer/
For me it was here:
X:\Program Files\ModifiableWindowsApps\HaloMCC\installers
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Sadly installing anti-cheat software at a completely unreasonable security level is becoming commonplace. We need to resist it at every turn. I understand that you need some kind of watchdog service that's quite hard to bypass for effective client-side anti-cheat, but this should be totally unacceptable.
I worry that average consumers won't understand the issues until one of these anti-cheats is broken in some way and gets hacked.
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@bobjanova said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
We need to resist it at every turn
We kind of do. But they're going to pull that shit anyway. There's lots - way too much - money in all the stupid twitching, online tournaments and shit. The average consumer and all those "athletes" are only pawns and clowns. I'm afraid that at those stakes it's not that unreasonable [security level] anymore. What even is an effective client-side anti-cheat? It's entirely possible to bypass even kernel mode driver by loading your own...
The problem: (Bruce Schneier said something like) if you think technology can solve your security problems, you don't understand technology and you don't understand your problems.
The solution? A few come to mind, but none very practical. Human referees have not been impartial and infallible...
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@bobjanova said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
We need to resist it at every turn
We kind of do. But they're going to pull that shit anyway. There's lots - way too much - money in all the stupid twitching, online tournaments and shit. The average consumer and all those "athletes" are only pawns and clowns. I'm afraid that at those stakes it's not that unreasonable anymore. What is effective client-side anti-cheat? It's entirely possible to bypass even kernel mode driver by loading your own...
I bypass it by not playing competitive multiplayer games. Avoid shooters and MOBAs and it's basically not an issue. But I understand that's not for everyone.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
I bypass it by not playing competitive multiplayer games.
Which works if you also want to avoid games which are otherwise excellent single player games (like Doom Eternal) just because they have a multiplayer component.
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@loopback0 said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
I bypass it by not playing competitive multiplayer games.
Which works if you also want to avoid games which are otherwise excellent single player games (like Doom Eternal) just because they have a multiplayer component.
I don't like shooters, whether single player or not, so NBD (for me, personally).
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@Benjamin-Hall First they came for shooters. I didn't like shooters, so I said NBD. Then they came for strategies. I didn't play those either... well, you get the idea, right?
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@loopback0 said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
I bypass it by not playing competitive multiplayer games.
Which works if you also want to avoid games which are otherwise excellent single player games (like Doom Eternal) just because they have a multiplayer component.
I don't like shooters, whether single player or not, so NBD (for me, personally).
OK but there are non-shooter games with both single and multiplayer elements too.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@Benjamin-Hall First they came for shooters. I didn't like shooters, so I said NBD. Then they came for strategies. I didn't play those either... well, you get the idea, right?
Sure. But I haven't seen any significant movement toward putting them on anything but e-sports-adjacent games. Because that's tons of effort for zero (or negative) returns.
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@Benjamin-Hall I see your point. But I'll remain unconvinced. Anything with a potential to shoehorn ranked MP is at risk. A number of RPGs have had that done. And despite the complaints - most common being that it took resources off the main story - it's here to stay; I mean, CDPR is looking to shoehorn MP into the goddamn CP2077, because some dumbfucks and churnalists keep asking.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@Benjamin-Hall I see your point. But I'll remain unconvinced. Anything with potential to shoehorn ranked MP is at risk. A number of RPGs have had that done. And despite the complaints - most common being that it took resources off the main story - it's here to stay; I mean, CDPR is looking to shoehorn it into the goddamn CP2077, because some dumbfucks and churnalists keep asking.
Yeah. It's obnoxious, and I did stop playing some games because of their intrusive DRM (Ubisoft before they got religion especially). And I don't like the kernel mode stuff one bit.
TBH, the game I play most is an MMO where they can't even keep obvious bots at bay. They ban waves of them, but it never ends. But that's just an annoyance unless you're trying to get rich by selling stuff on the market board.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
What even is an effective client-side anti-cheat?
For situations where it really matters, such as tournaments with substantial money on the line, the easiest approach is to standardise the equipment being used, maybe even to swap around what team plays with what equipment after each match. It's just taking a leaf out of what is done to promote fairness in traditional sports.
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Whoa, whoa...
The numbers, Mason, what do they mean?
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@dkf Imagine if there was a way that players could connect to a centralized server that could handle cheat detection in an authoritative manor...perhaps a dedicated type of server maybe... IDK... might be impossible. :)
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@CodeJunkie said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@dkf Imagine if there was a way that players could connect to a centralized server that could handle cheat detection in an authoritative manor...perhaps a dedicated type of server maybe... IDK... might be impossible. :)
Oh! Oh! I've heard of that! It's called Stadia!
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
TBH, the game I play most is an MMO where they can't even keep obvious bots at bay. They ban waves of them, but it never ends. But that's just an annoyance unless you're trying to get rich by selling stuff on the market board.
As a reminder, the Moogle Tomestone event started this morning.
And yes, I knew which MMO you meant before I saw the words "market board".
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@powerlord yeah. Did a couple roulettes. Don't need most of the things, but some of the 50 tomestone mounts would be nice.
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@Parody said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@CodeJunkie said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@dkf Imagine if there was a way that players could connect to a centralized server that could handle cheat detection in an authoritative manor...perhaps a dedicated type of server maybe... IDK... might be impossible. :)
Oh! Oh! I've heard of that! It's called Stadia!
I was really just referring to dedicated servers instead of peer-to-peer networking. But, game developers don't seem to really care about MP working well anymore, just that it exists in the cheapest form possible.
EDIT: pier-to-pier = peer-to-peer
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@CodeJunkie said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
pier-to-pier networking
Networking between piers? Something like this…
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@dkf said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@CodeJunkie said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
pier-to-pier networking
Networking between piers? Something like this…
haha, whoops
EDIT: That's just a new wireless networking topology.
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@dfdub said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
My plan to move my PC games to a dedicated VM with GPU passthrough, which I originally just wanted to do to see how well it'd work, sounds more and more reasonable every day.
It can be made to work really well. Below is a video of someone setting up 4 VMs and playing games on them simultaneously:
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I don't feel like writing long rants today, so I'll just call out @bobjanova for thinking that kernel driver anti-cheats is a recent development; @Benjamin-Hall for forgetting that DRM software pulls the same shit all the time so it's not just about competitive online games; and @CodeJunkie for proposing a solution that doesn't solve anything (sorry pal, but a dedicated server changes nothing).
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@Gąska I was specifically talking about the anti cheat. But yes. DRM bad (in fact worse in many cases). I gave up several games because the DRM was that obtrusive. But most of what I play uses Steam guard if anything.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
Whoa, whoa...
The numbers, Mason, what do they mean?
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
An entire row of posts has got quite weird downboats
The Mason with numbers is the one from Codblops. Yours is a curious coincidence in this particular case.
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@Applied-Mediocrity Oh, wow, that is weird. I didn't even notice it.
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@Gąska said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@dfdub said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
My plan to move my PC games to a dedicated VM with GPU passthrough, which I originally just wanted to do to see how well it'd work, sounds more and more reasonable every day.
It can be made to work really well. Below is a video of someone setting up 4 VMs and playing games on them simultaneously.
I've already read a few tutorials, so I know that I have to choose my hardware carefully. I guess I'm actually going to try it, not only because I can, but also because it makes it easier to choose the hardware components for my new PC as it reduces the number of possible configurations.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
Codblops
Undercooked fish and soggy chips?
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Holy crap, they actually walked it back:
Doom Eternal will ditch Denuvo Anti-Cheat in its next update
Marty Stratton said players aren't happy, so id is going back to the drawing board.
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"As we examine any future of anti-cheat in DOOM Eternal, at a minimum we must consider giving campaign-only players the ability to play without anti-cheat software installed, as well as ensure the overall timing of any anti-cheat integration better aligns with player expectations around clear initiatives—like ranked or competitive play—where demand for anti-cheat is far greater."
That actually sounds kinda sane.
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@Gąska said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
I'll just call out @bobjanova for thinking that kernel driver anti-cheats is a recent development
Did I say that? It is a relatively recent development in mainstream games, though, partly because the very concept (on Windows at least) of different levels of driver is a recent concept. And companies that tried to push this envelope before (like Valve) generally got heavily criticised for it and backed down; it's becoming so common that it looks like we're losing the battle.
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@e4tmyl33t Actually pretty impressed with id for listening
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@bobjanova said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
@Gąska said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
I'll just call out @bobjanova for thinking that kernel driver anti-cheats is a recent development
Did I say that? It is a relatively recent development in mainstream games, though, partly because the very concept (on Windows at least) of different levels of driver is a recent concept.
Well, yes, different levels are a recent concept. As in, before Vista, everything was kernel-mode, and they made full use of it. Complete with rootkits, global input hooks, automatic DLL injection in all newly created processes, and other things that are the reason we don't like kernel-mode anticheats today.
And companies that tried to push this envelope before (like Valve) generally got heavily criticised for it and backed down
They've only backed down after the automatic screenshot thing accidently started sending them bank statements and other sensitive information, and they've got sued for it. And more recently, they've backed down after developing an AI spectator system that spots cheaters better than anything else they've ever tried, so there's no need to install viruses anymore.
it's becoming so common that it looks like we're losing the battle.
We've lost it before it even started. It's the same thing as endless copyright extensions throughout 20th century - people don't care about anything that they don't see that affects them personally, and it takes too much brain power to see how copyright and anticheats affects them. That's also why we'll never end the permanent invigilation by ad networks, Facebook's and Twitter's selective rule enforcement that they use to effectively control public discourse, American healthcare system, European healthcare system, and everything else that's wrong with the world and hasn't been fixed yet.
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@Gąska said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
Complete with rootkits
I still remember the Sony CD rootkits. Made me stay away from Sony products for a few years.
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@dfdub said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout: I still remember the Sony CD rootkits. Made me stay away from Sony products for a few years.
Yeah that was a bad one. But we remember it because not everyone was trying to do that to your computer at the time (and iirc Sony dropped it pretty quickly after the publicity).
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@bobjanova said in Bethesda dealing with Fallout:
But we remember it because not everyone was trying to do that to your computer at the time (and iirc Sony dropped it pretty quickly after the publicity).
Well, what they did was also outright criminal. And I mean that quite literally.
At least modern anti-cheat solutions only actively spy on you when you're playing the game, are visible to the user and can be uninstalled.
Doom Eternal's first update includes Denuvo Anti-Cheat
