Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck
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File history: It's a great idea. It lets you not lose all your stuff if you accidentally save a blank file on top of something, delete stuff in a Word document without having to keep an extra copy somewhere just in case you want it back, etc.
It's also a feature that, like many others, should have been standard on all OSs 40 years ago. But let's not talk about the past. Windows 8 introduced a feature called "File History" in 2012. So today any Windows user can go back to the previous version if they mess up their epic MS Paint drawing they've been working on for months, right? Right?
Well... sort of. See, this feature officially replaced the previous "backups" feature. This seems a bit weird at first: shouldn't you want history and backups? I guess keeping old versions of a can be considered a subset of backup, if it's on a separate disk? And there's the issue. File history only works if you have a separate, dedicated drive. Because it's history and backup, and you're not allowed to have one without the other.
How many desktop users have a second drive to put backups in? Or a network drive? They probably have an external USB drive, but how often are they going to plug that in? So no, no file versions for 99% of people.
And of course, it only works with Windows network drives. Not with Google Drive, not with any popular service that normal people actually use. Not even with Microsoft's own fucking OneDrive. OneDrive supports file versions, but not as backups from other Windows folders, you have to keep the file there. Because god forbid two Microsoft products ever work well together.
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@anonymous234 But why would you keep your important documents locally if you can store them on OneDrive?
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AFAIR, OneDrive Personal does not actually provide the "File History" feature as of yet.
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It's a fully automatic hands-off backup mechanism. Depending on what you do, it can generate gigabytes of data per day. And by default, it never deletes history. I don't know what that kind of bandwidth usage and cloud storage cost in the U.S., but it's highly probable that I couldn't afford it.
As far as I can see, you're meant to keep feeding it disks on a regular basis, to keep an eternal account of your work. So, you don't want to store the history on your C-drive.
Edit: typos
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@acrow said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
As far as I can see, you're meant to keep feeding it disks on a regular basis, to keep an eternal account of your work.
Well, that's silly. You don't need an eternal account of all changes, just most changes for a few months would be enough for most people.
And again, the alternative is no account at all. Clearly something > nothing.
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@kt_ said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
OneDrive Personal
That's another
there's 2 version of OneDrive 
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I used to use File History to back stuff up to my NAS, but it wasn't very reliable. Also, you could never tell which Control Panel to go in, and it seemed to switch Control Panels at every update. And at one point it was named Windows 7 File Backups (or something like that) even on Windows 10, with indications that it's probably going away but the replacement stuff totally sucks.
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@anonymous234 said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
It's also a feature that, like many others, should have been standard on all OSs 40 years ago.
Hmmm. That 400 MB SCSI disk I bought 25 years ago was the most expensive piece of hardware that I ever bought privately, and it seemed limitless for a few months, then it filled up scary fast even without that feature. I imagine people would have been extremely fucking unhappy about it on their 10 MB Winchesters.
Well... sort of. See, this feature officially replaced the previous "backups" feature. This seems a bit weird at first: shouldn't you want history and backups? I guess keeping old versions of a can be considered a subset of backup, if it's on a separate disk? And there's the issue. File history only works if you have a separate, dedicated drive. Because it's history and backup, and you're not allowed to have one without the other.
I'm usually happy for every opportunity to laugh at MS but I'm not sure what TRWTF is here. If it actually refuses to work with a dedicated partition, it's that. If it does work with a partition, it's people who get worked up about not being able to use it when they'd just have to partition their disk.
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@TimeBandit said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@kt_ said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
OneDrive Personal
That's another
there's 2 version of OneDrive Yeah. And the Business one is just a renamed SharePoint.
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@kt_ said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@TimeBandit said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@kt_ said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
OneDrive Personal
That's another
there's 2 version of OneDrive Yeah. And the Business one is just a renamed SharePoint.
This KB suggests I'm mistaken and this feature has been rolled out for OneDrive Personal:
SharePoint Server 2019 SharePoint Server 2016 SharePoint Server 2013 Enterprise OneDrive for Business OneDrive Less
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@LaoC said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
If it does work with a partition, it's people who get worked up about not being able to use it when they'd just have to partition their disk.
Why require a separate partition when you could... not require a separate partition?
Would you defend Microsoft Word if it refused to save files unless it was in its own partition?
I just want to live in a world where I don't have to walk my computer-illiterate grandma through endless setup procedures to get her computer to work properly. But OS makers keep putting obstacles in the way.
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@anonymous234 said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
I just want to live in a world where I don't have to walk my computer-illiterate grandma through endless setup procedures to get her computer to work properly.
Buy her a Chromebook
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@LaoC said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@anonymous234 said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
Well... sort of. See, this feature officially replaced the previous "backups" feature. This seems a bit weird at first: shouldn't you want history and backups? I guess keeping old versions of a can be considered a subset of backup, if it's on a separate disk? And there's the issue. File history only works if you have a separate, dedicated drive. Because it's history and backup, and you're not allowed to have one without the other.
I'm usually happy for every opportunity to laugh at MS but I'm not sure what TRWTF is here. If it actually refuses to work with a dedicated partition, it's that. If it does work with a partition, it's people who get worked up about not being able to use it when they'd just have to partition their disk.
I know I had the backup share from the nas mounted as a partition, because it wouldn't accept
\\diskstation\backupas a target.
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@anonymous234 said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
It's also a feature that, like many others, should have been standard on all OSs 40 years ago.
Back when people often stored their files on 1.44 Mb floppies?
File history only works if you have a separate, dedicated drive. Because it's history and backup, and you're not allowed to have one without the other.
The way I see it, history and backups are meant for two things: 1.) To restore to a prior save point in case, as you mention, you screw something up with the file itself. and 2.) To recover from disk failure.
Storing your history on the same disk might help #1 but it does jack shit for #2. I mean, you could make the point that if someone just wants to protect themselves from #1, they should have that option, but I'd say any best practice would be to always, always, always do any backups on a separate drive regardless.
They probably have an external USB drive, but how often are they going to plug that in? So no, no file versions for 99% of people.
Where do you get that from? Flash drives are very common. I know of plenty of people who use them for work, especially.
And of course, it only works with Windows network drives. Not with Google Drive, not with any popular service that normal people actually use. Not even with Microsoft's own fucking OneDrive. OneDrive supports file versions, but not as backups from other Windows folders, you have to keep the file there. Because god forbid two Microsoft products ever work well together.
Alright, there's the WTF. Although I believe Dropbox has versioning features you can use instead of Windows history.
This kinda just falls in line with Microsoft's trend of "core features of the OS are half-baked, and you gotta get third-party software to really get the full functionality if you want it."
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@The_Quiet_One said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
core features of the OS are half-baked
That's a good description of Windows in general
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@The_Quiet_One said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@anonymous234 said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
They probably have an external USB drive, but how often are they going to plug that in? So no, no file versions for 99% of people.
Where do you get that from? Flash drives are very common. I know of plenty of people who use them for work, especially.
True, but from what I understand, the feature requires the drive to be permanently connected to the machine. And most people see USB keys as removable storage you use to transfer files, not something you keep plugged in into the same machine all the time.
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@Zerosquare said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
most people see USB keys as removable storage you use to transfer files, not something you keep plugged in into the same machine all the time
How To Use ReadyBoost to Improve Windows 7 Speed & Performance
ReadyBoost allows a Windows system to utilize a USB drive as a cache and boost performance for systems with less RAM.
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@TimeBandit: Damn. I knew someone would bring up ReadyBoost, but decided not to add a disclaimer, because how many non-power users actually use it?
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@Zerosquare said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
I knew someone would bring up ReadyBoost
You didn't think it would be me
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I thought they had removed this feature (it had disappeared from the Insider builds at one point), but apparently they put it back for now. I'm sure their plan is to push you to keep things in OneDrive, just like when they ditched HomeGroups.
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@Zerosquare said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
how many non-power users actually use it?
Not even power users use it, so...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@Zerosquare said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
how many non-power users actually use it?
Not even power users use it, so...
Power users would probably see this:
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@anonymous234 said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@LaoC said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
If it does work with a partition, it's people who get worked up about not being able to use it when they'd just have to partition their disk.
Why require a separate partition when you could... not require a separate partition?
Yeah, in a more sensible world (like with NILFS, or what the LISP Machines already had more than 40 years ago), this would be a file system feature and always complemented by backups. If it's supposed to be a poor man's backup however, it makes sense to put it on a different partition to guard against FS corruption.
Would you defend Microsoft Word if it refused to save files unless it was in its own partition?
No, I don't think there's anything I'd defend MS Word against.
I just want to live in a world where I don't have to walk my computer-illiterate grandma through endless setup procedures to get her computer to work properly. But OS makers keep putting obstacles in the way.
Toby faire, the hardware makers with their insistence on putting those pesky limits on storage device capacity have their share in this as well. Of course you could walk your grandma through the installation of a new disk every couple of months instead. Or have the OS automagically purge old versions when space gets low and get a "WHAT? What do you mean my old documents are gone because I saved a fucking video?!"
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@LaoC said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
my old documents are gone because I saved a fucking video
That's what happens when you fill your drive with porn
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I don't readily see how a file history OS feature could or should work in a non WTF, predictable manner.
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@Watson said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@Zerosquare said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
how many non-power users actually use it?
Not even power users use it, so...
Power users would probably see this:
And non-power users would burn through their generic USB stick in a matter of days.
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@marczellm said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
I don't readily see how a file history OS feature could or should work in a non WTF, predictable manner.
Google Drive can do it
.
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@anonymous234 Yes, and that's not an OS feature.
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@anonymous234 said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
And of course, it only works with Windows network drives. Not with Google Drive, not with any popular service that normal people actually use. Not even with Microsoft's own fucking OneDrive.
This is actually not surprising, considering what you said earlier - that it has to be a separate drive. And neither Google Drive, nor OneDrive, nor any other cloud storage (to my knowledge) allows mounting as a separate logical volume and not a directory on some existing volume.
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@kt_ said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
OneDrive Less
Doesn't sound like something I want to keep my backups in.
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@marczellm It's a feature implemented by software. If it can be implemented by software [Google server storage database + GDocs] it can be implemented by software [NTFS driver + Word].
I get that Windows has an extra problem here: it has to deal with files that are not "documents" (configuration files, temporary files), files that get written many times per second, etc. That's not an unsolvable problem. Just implement an API to let applications give you file info and use "best judgement" for applications that don't use it.
And again, that problem has been solved, and the code has been in Windows for 6 years. It's just that you can't run it unless you have a second partition.
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@anonymous234 said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@marczellm It's a feature implemented by software. If it can be implemented by software [Google server storage database + GDocs] it can be implemented by software [NTFS driver + Word].
I get that Windows has an extra problem here: it has to deal with files that are not "documents" (configuration files, temporary files), files that get written many times per second, etc. That's not an unsolvable problem. Just implement an API to let applications give you file info and use "best judgement" for applications that don't use it.
And again, that problem has been solved, and the code has been in Windows for 6 years. It's just that you can't run it unless you have a second partition.
According to the article I just read on this, it just backs up everything once an hour, dumb as bricks. Are you sure that history has an API that applications can engage, or indeed any kind of smarts?
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@acrow said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
According to the article I just read on this, it just backs up everything once an hour, dumb as bricks. Are you sure that history has an API that applications can engage, or indeed any kind of smarts?
The dumb thing about all this is that other OS makers have managed to solve this without making such an unholy dog's breakfast of it all.
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@TimeBandit said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@kt_ said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
OneDrive Personal
That's another
there's 2 version of OneDrive There's only two. That's better than most Microsoft products.
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@kt_ said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
AFAIR, OneDrive Personal does not actually provide the "File History" feature as of yet.
Actually, it does. Whenever I click on a file I get the option to see the "Revision history".
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@acrow said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
According to the article I just read on this, it just backs up everything once an hour, dumb as bricks. Are you sure that history has an API that applications can engage, or indeed any kind of smarts?
According to this Microsoft blog post File History isn't quite that dumb: it pays attention to what's changed and only backs up the changed files, it caches changed files if the File History drive is offline, and it pays attention to what you're doing just like the other apps from Windows 8. I assume that last one means it fires up as soon as you turn the device back on and prevents you from doing much of anything until all of your installed software has finished doing its delayed background crap. (See also: Windows Update, the Microsoft Store,
SkyOneDrive, DropBox….)
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@Parody said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
@acrow said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
According to the article I just read on this, it just backs up everything once an hour, dumb as bricks. Are you sure that history has an API that applications can engage, or indeed any kind of smarts?
According to this Microsoft blog post File History isn't quite that dumb: it pays attention to what's changed and only backs up the changed files, it caches changed files if the File History drive is offline, and it pays attention to what you're doing just like the other apps from Windows 8. I assume that last one means it fires up as soon as you turn the device back on and prevents you from doing much of anything until all of your installed software has finished doing its delayed background crap. (See also: Windows Update, the Microsoft Store,
SkyOneDrive, DropBox….)I'd caught that it only backs up changed files, thank-you-very-much.
What I meant was that there seems to be no way for a given program to tell it that a file has changed and "can I get a backup please?". For the lowest common denominator user who keeps his stuff in the desktop folder, backing up all changes hourly seems like a relatively idiot-proof way to meet user expectations. If they keep feeding it disks, they'll never lose anything. Sorry, but for once MS's solution seems actually well thought out.
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@kt_ said in Windows "File History": yet another Microsoft design clusterfuck:
AFAIR, OneDrive Personal does not actually provide the "File History" feature as of yet.
DropBox definitely does, and it's saved my ass a few times.
Restore a previous version of a file stored in OneDrive - Microsoft Support
