Betrayed by github activity graph
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@JBert said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
I hope that your documentation won't need too many posts for updates if it becomes the latter...
1h20 to be noticed... Not bad...
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@The_Quiet_One said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@cartman82 I don't even use GitHub. I'm screwed.
I don't even use LinkedIn or anything like that where I can show off my 7000 years of experience in every technology ever. I'm totally screwed.
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@The_Quiet_One said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@dcon said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
we know he wasn't writing and committing code for the job
No you don't. You only know he wasn't committing any.
If you write 2 days of code and don't commit, that's even worse than not writing at all.
Nonsense. I don't know if you're being hyperbolic or not, but while you should commit as often as possible, how could you say delaying your commits by a few days while actually working on shit is worse than not actually working on shit, especially if you're on your own long-term feature branch by yourself? That doesn't make any sense.
I'm pretty sure we have a forum member who argues you should get around 5 commits an hour.
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@PJH said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Confluence
That's what we use as well. There are pros and cons -- the IE support is terrible and the formatting can become atrocious if people don't pay attention to what they're doing (wrt copying and pasting, the default nbsp in table cells, etc.), but it does have a WYSIWYG editor (I agree with @blakeyrat here that that's essential if you're going to get people to do documentation and make the process accessible to everyone) and you can import from/export to Word with a standard document template (I believe that's an add-on) for the release version of the documentation.
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@topspin said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
I don't even use LinkedIn or anything like that where I can show off my 7000 years of experience in every technology ever. I'm totally screwed.
If you rely on HR people finding you and trying to poach you (a good negotiating position), then yes, it's bad. But there are other ways to get a job.
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This post is deleted!
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@heterodox said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
the IE support is terrible
That's a pretty good point in favour of Confluence right there. Unfortunately, I've used Confluence for real and “doesn't work nicely with IE” is a definite lone outstanding point in a sea of mediocrity (and the worst thing about Jira is that it is welded to Confluence).
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@heterodox said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
but it does have a WYSIWYG editor
Yes, and it sucks ass. I spend half the time fighting with some invisible element that's screwing everything up.
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@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@Zerosquare said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Discriminating against applicants who used to work in properly-run companies is unfair. And given the average competence of HR workers, telling them that is irresponsible. (even if I know you probably didn't do that on purpose.)
but maybe...
... if you spend your entire career working in large, well organized corporations, maybe you won't be able to cope when thrust into a process-less startup environment. As I've seen happen a couple of times.Actually happened to me. I was working for large, overly-structured corporation when I interviewed with a young company. We all immediately felt there was no fit. Back then I was very much used to working in an iterative waterfall mode, everything well-architected, documented and thought out up front ... versus ... the clients wants something - have a go at it.
Edit: Currently I'm not actively developing anymore.
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@blakeyrat said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@Zerosquare said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Discriminating against applicants who used to work in properly-run companies is unfair. And given the average competence of HR workers, telling them that is irresponsible. (even if I know you probably didn't do that on purpose.)
Even looking at this chart is unfair, because it's a fucking useless chart.
Most software development work does not involve checking in source code. Setting up servers, no check-ins. Doing usability tests, no check-ins. Writing documentation, no check-ins. Prototyping a new technique of doing something, no check-ins. Learning the business domain so they can write better code to serve it, no check-ins.
In fact, the good stuff that you want your programmers do be doing don't involve checking in code. The programmers who just do nothing but sit and type in code are the bad ones.
EDIT: doing manual QA, no check-ins. Actually designing the product before writing code, no check-ins.
My god, once again I completely agree with BlakeyRat. The world must be coning to an end,.
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@KattMan said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@blakeyrat said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@Zerosquare said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Discriminating against applicants who used to work in properly-run companies is unfair. And given the average competence of HR workers, telling them that is irresponsible. (even if I know you probably didn't do that on purpose.)
Even looking at this chart is unfair, because it's a fucking useless chart.
Most software development work does not involve checking in source code. Setting up servers, no check-ins. Doing usability tests, no check-ins. Writing documentation, no check-ins. Prototyping a new technique of doing something, no check-ins. Learning the business domain so they can write better code to serve it, no check-ins.
In fact, the good stuff that you want your programmers do be doing don't involve checking in code. The programmers who just do nothing but sit and type in code are the bad ones.
EDIT: doing manual QA, no check-ins. Actually designing the product before writing code, no check-ins.
My god, once again I completely agree with BlakeyRat. The world must be
coning to an end,.So much so that you forgot how to type!
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@cartman82 I forgive you. It's hard not to be drawn into the neo-slavery culture when it surrounds you.
My github is not corporate. I put some corporate things on there, but it's basically everything I do. Commits will span from long dry periods to 3am.
Will I get hired by people who expect me to do dev 100% of the time? No. Those people need to hire a dev machine. I have non-dev interests, and until the world truly goes into dystopian apocalyptic shit, I will continue to do so.
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@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@The_Quiet_One said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@cartman82 I don't even use GitHub. I'm screwed.
Well nothing's stopping you from putting all your portfolio code on an FTP server and putting a link in CV...
If you asked me to do something like that in my resume I'd tell you to fuck off. I've literally never had to do anything like that including an interview process I recently went through. That's what programming exercises or discussions are for.
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@dkf said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@heterodox said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
the IE support is terrible
That's a pretty good point in favour of Confluence right there. Unfortunately, I've used Confluence for real and “doesn't work nicely with IE” is a definite lone outstanding point in a sea of mediocrity (and the worst thing about Jira is that it is welded to Confluence).
We use both and their being connected hasn't been a problem.
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@Deadfast said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@heterodox said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
but it does have a WYSIWYG editor
Yes, and it sucks ass. I spend half the time fighting with some invisible element that's screwing everything up.
That's probably a problem with you if it's happening that much. I think I've had to fight something like that only a few times (over I think 4 years). Usually when I add a table of contents above a heading title the TOC sometimes gets that formatting and shows itself as an empty bullet item. It's annoying when it happens but it doesn't happen that much.
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@dkf said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
(and the worst thing about Jira is that it is welded to Confluence).
Back when I worked for a Atlassian company the Jira markdown was COMPLETELY different from the Confluence markdown.
Made worse by if you went to the Jira markdown help file it'd tell you about stuff that ONLY worked in Confluence and not Jira. It was a piece of shit. Then you find out it's all written in Java, and you're like "oooh that explains it."
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@blakeyrat said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@dkf said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
(and the worst thing about Jira is that it is welded to Confluence).
Back when I worked for a Atlassian company the Jira markdown was COMPLETELY different from the Confluence markdown.
Made worse by if you went to the Jira markdown help file it'd tell you about stuff that ONLY worked in Confluence and not Jira. It was a piece of shit. Then you find out it's all written in Java, and you're like "oooh that explains it."
Maybe it's our setup, but I never use markdown for either. I use their little WYSIWYG toolbars. Basic text formatting, lists, and sub-lists seem to work fine this way in Jira. The more complicated stuff in the Confluence toolbar seems to work well too for tables, headings, and all the other stuff. We use a draw.io plugin (or is that default feature?) for embedded diagrams that generally works fine.
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@mikehurley Cool story bro.
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@mikehurley said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
The more complicated stuff in the Confluence toolbar seems to work well too for tables, headings, and all the other stuff.
Not my experience.
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@KattMan said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
coning
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@MrL said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@mikehurley said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
The more complicated stuff in the Confluence toolbar seems to work well too for tables, headings, and all the other stuff.
Not my experience.
Does your company keep the version up to date? Our company is kind of obsessed with updating it.
I don't particularly love Confluence, but it works well enough. I'd be curious to know what particulars don't work. I get the impression you guys run into things that frequently don't work. Not just a few things that are annoying sometimes.
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@topspin said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@The_Quiet_One said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@dcon said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
we know he wasn't writing and committing code for the job
No you don't. You only know he wasn't committing any.
If you write 2 days of code and don't commit, that's even worse than not writing at all.
Nonsense. I don't know if you're being hyperbolic or not, but while you should commit as often as possible, how could you say delaying your commits by a few days while actually working on shit is worse than not actually working on shit, especially if you're on your own long-term feature branch by yourself? That doesn't make any sense.
I'm pretty sure we have a forum member who argues you should get around 5 commits an hour.
Just as long as you can also modify the commit history!
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@Deadfast said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@heterodox said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
WYSIWYG editor
some invisible element
So...
It's not actually WYSIWYG?
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@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
I was reviewing a job candidate with the HR lady, and noticed this on the guy's corporate GitHub profile:
Notice absolutely no weekend commits. Not even one over the past year.
So the guy is either working in the most organized, well-run company ever (in which case, his work is probably pre-chewed and boring), or he refuses to lend a hand during crunch times / crisis.
...huh?
Having worked at companies large and small and every size in between, this is a really bizarre notion. Even when we've had "crunch times / crisis" at the place I was working, it didn't involve coming in on the weekend, just staying late after work on normal working days. You don't have to be an extraordinarily organized software company to not need to bring people in on weekends.
...what kind of places have you been working at, that you think this is normal?!?
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@masonwheeler said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
it didn't involve coming in on the weekend, just staying late after work on normal working days
The only times I commit code for work out of hours or at a weekend is when it is something I've gotten a bit too obsessed about and it's keeping me awake at night. I try to avoid that sort of thing. ;) However, I never go into work at the weekend or physically work late in the office. Living a long way from work strongly discourages that sort of dysfunction.
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The only times my company has anyone work on week-ends involve sysadmin tasks (either at the company itself or at some customer overseas), not coding ones.
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Am I the only one here who had to stay on weekends from time to time to work on coding tasks?
Granted, I was paid 200% every time. So I was quite happy to work on weekends.
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At a previous job where the support backlog was getting too big we had the chance to volunteer to come in on Saturdays about once a month to work through some tasks, for time and a half pay.
In my current job I'm soon going to be on call one week in 8 to support a managed service deployment. That will include weekends, but if anything comes up it will be a matter of remoting in, not coming into the office
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@Gąska said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Am I the only one here who had to stay on weekends from time to time to work on coding tasks?
I did. And still sometimes do.
I see no problem when this is a result of something unpredictable, not premeditated. And with proper compensation of course.
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@Gąska said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Am I the only one here who had to stay on weekends from time to time to work on coding tasks?
It doesn't appear to be as common as most seem to think..
@Gąska said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Granted, I was paid 200% every time. So I was quite happy to work on weekends.
I'm salaried, which in
generally means you don't get paid overtime.
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@mott555 Exactly. I am a manager of a small development team, and I work hard to make sure that off-work time is really off-work time. I actively tell people to not install work email accounts in their personal devices, and to not check in during vacation time. I think the last time I had to have someone work on a weekend was around 2012, and even that was just to shut up a whining customer.
Work is stupid and we should all be doing far, far less of it. I think it's been several decades now that we have been advertised all this new technology as time-saving, productivity-increasing nirvana. By my math, by now we should be working 10 minutes a day, max.
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@masonwheeler said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
I was reviewing a job candidate with the HR lady, and noticed this on the guy's corporate GitHub profile:
Notice absolutely no weekend commits. Not even one over the past year.
So the guy is either working in the most organized, well-run company ever (in which case, his work is probably pre-chewed and boring), or he refuses to lend a hand during crunch times / crisis.
...huh?
Having worked at companies large and small and every size in between, this is a really bizarre notion. Even when we've had "crunch times / crisis" at the place I was working, it didn't involve coming in on the weekend, just staying late after work on normal working days. You don't have to be an extraordinarily organized software company to not need to bring people in on weekends.
...what kind of places have you been working at, that you think this is normal?!?
I think that if @cartman82 and his company think like that, I want them to notice I don't do weekends and avoid hiring me. I don't want to work to anyone like that.
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@El-Dorko said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Work is stupid and we should all be doing far, far less of it. I think it's been several decades now that we have been advertised all this new technology as time-saving, productivity-increasing nirvana. By my math, by now we should be working 10 minutes a day, max.
Except as every hardware designer knows, "less energy consumption" really means "more processing power with the same energy consumption".
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@El-Dorko said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
we have been advertised all this new technology as time-saving
Relevant Dilbert:
http://dilbert.com/strip/1990-04-25
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@blakeyrat said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@dkf said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
(and the worst thing about Jira is that it is welded to Confluence).
Back when I worked for a Atlassian company the Jira markdown was COMPLETELY different from the Confluence markdown.
Made worse by if you went to the Jira markdown help file it'd tell you about stuff that ONLY worked in Confluence and not Jira. It was a piece of shit. Then you find out it's all written in Java, and you're like "oooh that explains it."
I feel so much better now.
The problem is not JAVA in my experience, it can handle every task just as efficiently as C# can for someone who knows how to write good code in both languages. Granted for me, writing JAVA code would not be efficient, but I don't call myself a JAVA programmer either, and neither should at least half the JAVA programmers I have met.I think the fact that JAVA and JavaScript are taught in schools people think they are experts immediately and if you don't write JAVA natively you aren't worth listening to even when you have 25 years in the field having worked through nearly a dozen languages and know that the basics are pretty much the same and it's now learning syntactical sugar and frameworks.
So JAVA will remain a popular language dragged down by programmers without the experience needed to actually efficiently solve the problems they are tasked to do and refuse to listen to anyone else when you try to teach them.
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@El-Dorko said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
I think it's been several decades now that we have been advertised all this new technology as time-saving, productivity-increasing nirvana. By my math, by now we should be working 10 minutes a day, max.
There's a book I'd recommend called Kids These Days: Human Capital and the Making of Millenials.
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@masonwheeler said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Having worked at companies large and small and every size in between, this is a really bizarre notion. Even when we've had "crunch times / crisis" at the place I was working, it didn't involve coming in on the weekend, just staying late after work on normal working days. You don't have to be an extraordinarily organized software company to not need to bring people in on weekends.
...what kind of places have you been working at, that you think this is normal?!?I was thinking more like an emergency bug fix during the weekend (after a thoughtless Friday release).
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@El-Dorko said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Work is stupid and we should all be doing far, far less of it. I think it's been several decades now that we have been advertised all this new technology as time-saving, productivity-increasing nirvana. By my math, by now we should be working 10 minutes a day, max.
Time saving, productivity increasing nirvana only means they can now fire more people and have the survivors work harder.
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@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
after a thoughtless Friday release
What do you mean? All releases are on Friday.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
I think that if @cartman82 and his company think like that, I want them to notice I don't do weekends and avoid hiring me. I don't want to work to anyone like that.
See my graph, I haven't worked overtime yet. Once we have a product in production, we'll see.
If we DID have a product in production and something DID go wrong, and you refused to work until Monday (and had your colleagues put out the fire alone), well, that would be kind of sucky on your part.
To each their own, startup work is different than enterprise.
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@MrL said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
after a thoughtless Friday release
What do you mean? All releases are on Friday.
Friday release is soooooo tempting. There is always one more bug to fix or thing to polish. Why not push it one more day?
But you always end up regretting it.
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@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
But you
r coworkers always end up regretting it.FTFY. After all, what's the point of a work phone if you don't "accidentally" forget it at the office every Friday at
54?
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@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
and you refused to work until Monday (and had your colleagues put out the fire alone), well, that would be kind of sucky on your part.
Well this problem would be solved if everyone refuses to come in on the weekends so that the cunt who deploys it on a Friday without proper QA and checks in place will get his shit together better next time.
The problem is the general assumption that wanting to not work on the weekend, production issue or not, is somehow wrong.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@masonwheeler said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
I was reviewing a job candidate with the HR lady, and noticed this on the guy's corporate GitHub profile:
Notice absolutely no weekend commits. Not even one over the past year.
So the guy is either working in the most organized, well-run company ever (in which case, his work is probably pre-chewed and boring), or he refuses to lend a hand during crunch times / crisis.
...huh?
Having worked at companies large and small and every size in between, this is a really bizarre notion. Even when we've had "crunch times / crisis" at the place I was working, it didn't involve coming in on the weekend, just staying late after work on normal working days. You don't have to be an extraordinarily organized software company to not need to bring people in on weekends.
...what kind of places have you been working at, that you think this is normal?!?
I think that if @cartman82 and his company think like that, I want them to notice I don't do weekends and avoid hiring me. I don't want to work to anyone like that.
You're doing it wrong. You join the company and when they ask you to come in on the weekends, give them a blank stare and walk away slowly. Or give them the finger. Shitloads of people are under the wrong impression that working on the weekends comes with the job and no one should refuse to do the same.
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@stillwater said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Well this problem would be solved if everyone refuses to come in on the weekends so that the cunt who deploys it on a Friday without proper QA and checks in place will get his shit together better next time.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Fucked up release is a thing of the past, it already happened and it was forgotten 30 seconds later, because "we need to fix shit" problem got all attention instantaneously.
You can whine that it's not fair, not your fault, etc all you want, the perception is that 'there's some problem with code. Problems with code = fault of developers'.Plus, it's entirely different thing to fuck something up, cause problems by doing something and refusal to work.
In short: being right means jack shit.
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@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
See my graph, I haven't worked overtime yet. Once we have a product in production, we'll see.
More evidence that looking at these graphs don't tell much about anyone. Of course I we can't judge you as a boss looking at a forum topic you posted either.
@cartman82 said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
If we DID have a product in production and something DID go wrong, and you refused to work until Monday (and had your colleagues put out the fire alone), well, that would be kind of sucky on your part.
I don't refuse to do it, but if it happens more than 3 times in a row I start searching for a new job.
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@sockpuppet7
An outgoing software development manager called his successor into his office, and handed him three sealed envelopes, labeled with the numbers 1, 2, and 3.
What are these?
Son, it's time for you to take over this team. Keep these envelopes in your desk, and each time you have a major outage after a deploy to production, open the next envelope in sequence.
The man didn't really understand, but his manager had been a wise and fair manager, so the man kept the envelopes in a corner of his desk drawer. A month later, a major production outage occurred, and the man recalled the envelopes. Rushing to his desk, he opened the first envelope.
Call in your entire development staff to work evenings and weekends until the issue is fixed. Afterwards, buy them all pizza and beer.Picking up the phone, the new manager called in his entire development staff. There was much grumbling, and some noise from the front end guys that it was really the back end guys' fault anyway and why where they here... but soon the team settled down, found the issue, and fixed it. A great celebration was had, involving pizza and beer, and everyone was greatly relieved.
Another month passed, a deadline loomed, and as sure as clockwork, a second production outage occurred. This time, the manager was ready, and calmly opened the second envelope
Ensure your deployments don't occur on Fridays, or late in the afternoon, but rather are when your team is fresh and able to resolve issues quickly.The manager was a little confused, since there wasn't much that could be done when a deadline occurred, but his team cleaned up the current outage, and then they went through their schedule to move all the deadlines ahead to a Thursday morning instead of Friday afternoon. And the business greatly rejoiced, since they had very few customers on Thursdays, but weekends were highly critical times for sales. A great celebration was had, involving even better pizza and beer than the first time, and everyone was greatly relieved.
Three more months passed without hiccup. But then another production outage occurred. The manager didn't even bat an eyelash as he set his team to triage the issue and went to open the third envelope.
Prepare three envelopes...
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@Gąska said in Betrayed by github activity graph:
Am I the only one here who had to stay on weekends from time to time to work on coding tasks?
Granted, I was paid 200% every time. So I was quite happy to work on weekends.
I wouldn't mind it except I'm salaried. I'm not working overtime for no benefit, I'd rather sleep in and play MechWarrior or whatever.
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@mott555
To be the
here... at least in my experiences, being on slaverysalary already does include the benefit, whether you work OT or not. You generally have much more flexible hours than hourly staff does, every place I've been in allows at least some "flexing" of time worked outside of normal hours, and salaried staff are generally paid more per hour than hourly staff with a similar amount of experience in their job role.Yeah, it sucks to know that I'll make $X if I work the normal work week, and I'll make $X if I put in 20 extra hours fixing a zomg critical problem regardless of whose fault it was... But it's not like that wasn't a known risk going into the job, and it's not like they don't pay you up front for it.
(And, also, everywhere I've been on call they actually do pay a small per diem and an hourly "callout" rate if I get called in on-call, on top of my salary, so it's not like I get handed a bag of poop in thanks for my hard work...)
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