A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?
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About 10 years ago, a coworker of mine predicted that given the rapid progress in SSD technology, the next generation of gaming consoles would return to being cartridge-based rather than DVD/Blu-Ray/similar disc based. Obviously this didn't happen, with the new PlayStation, XBox and Nintendo systems running off a combination of discs and downloads, but I can't help but wonder if the idea doesn't have some merit:
- DVD-style discs are slow. Blu-Ray data transfer rate is an order of magnitude slower than SSDs.
- Downloads are even slower. Most residential households in the world can't even get a sustained 10 MB/sec download rate, which means downloading a modern tens-of-GB game can take a day or longer.
- Downloads are expensive and just getting worse, particularly in the USA. With a highly uncompetitive broadband industry free to set high prices, and then apply caps and overage fees on top of that, and the repeal of net neutrality removing disincentives to do so, downloading large games is making less sense every day.
- From the business side, supporting large downloads is expensive, because it means you have to have all these enormous game images stored on some cloud server somewhere. Just imagine what Steam's infrastructure costs are!
- Cartridges may be more expensive than discs, but given that most big modern games sell for more than NES/SNES games did, and the low cost of hardware these days, this expense should be minimal. (For example, you can get an SSD big enough to hold a AAA game for under $25 retail. Wholesale, it'd be even less than that.)
So, what do you think? Would it be a good idea to have a new console system with games on SSD-based (or possibly USB flash-based) cartridges? How viable would it be? What would be the disadvantages?
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
About 10 years ago, a coworker of mine predicted that given the rapid progress in SSD technology, the next generation of gaming consoles would return to being cartridge-based rather than DVD/Blu-Ray/similar disc based.
Aka before the (cartridge-based) Sony Vita was released in 2012?
Kind of hard to take your post seriously when it doesn't even mention the modern cartridge-based gaming console in stores right now this instant. (Well, ok, by now it might be sold out everywhere, but you get the point.)
It's like starting a conversation with: "about 25 years ago my friend thought it might be interesting if you combined an electric motor and a gasoline engine to make some kind of 'hybrid' car."
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
with the new PlayStation, XBox
and Nintendosystems running off a combination of discs and downloadsNintendo Switch Game Cards are cartridges with Macronix flash. Try again.
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Like, seriously, I get the feeling I should be asking Poe or Noe...
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@twelvebaud said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Nintendo Switch Game Cards are cartridges with Macronix flash. Try again.
See, I didn't even know that (actually I guess I knew it in the back of my brain since Nintendo wouldn't release a download-only console and I knew it didn't have any kind of micro-CD-drive anything on it). So yeah, there's been TWO cartridge-based systems from major game console makers since your friend came up with that. Apparently after a bit of research the Ouya also took cartridges, and that horrible Nokia taco-phone thing, but I wouldn't really expect them to be part of the conversation.
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@blakeyrat said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
taco-phone
http://gadgetnerdly.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/iPhone-6-Taco-295x300.png
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@heterodox No it looked dumber than that. (Nokia N-Gage if you want to Google it up. I don't blame anybody for not remembering it.)
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@heterodox I'd actually consider buying an iPhone if it tasted like tacos.
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
- Cartridges may be more expensive than discs, but given that most big modern games sell for more than NES/SNES games did
No, they sell for quite a bit less, adjusted for inflation. New games are $50-60, which is the same price range as SNES games in the 1990s.
For example, you can get an SSD big enough to hold a AAA game for under $25 retail. Wholesale, it'd be even less than that.
And Blu-ray discs are under $1 retail.
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
From the business side, supporting large downloads is expensive, because it means you have to have all these enormous game images stored on some cloud server somewhere. Just imagine what Steam's infrastructure costs are!
I feel like someone should remind companies that P2P is a thing.
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@blakeyrat said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Aka before the (cartridge-based) Sony Vita was released in 2012?
@twelvebaud said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Nintendo Switch Game Cards are cartridges with Macronix flash. Try again.
Sorry, I should have clarified. Those are handheld gaming systems; I was talking about a classic-style console that connects to a TV, and as far as I know, there hasn't been one of those that uses cartridges since the N64.
@blakeyrat said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Apparently after a bit of research the Ouya also took cartridges
Nope. It was downloads-only. (I know this by personal experience; I was a Kickstarter backer on the project and still have the console.)
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
. Those are handheld gaming systems; I was talking about a classic-style console
No True Scotsman? Really?
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@twelvebaud Huh?
I gave a specific clarification that I was referring to "desktop" consoles that connect to a TV, and not handheld gaming systems. (It should have been possible to infer this from the context anyway, as handheld systems don't have the hardware to run high-end modern gaming titles of the type I mentioned at several points, but apparently not...)
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
From the business side, supporting large downloads is expensive, because it means you have to have all these enormous game images stored on some cloud server somewhere. Just imagine what Steam's infrastructure costs are!
Not that much. Not really. Certainly cheaper than imaging and shipping a ton of SSDs.
@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Cartridges may be more expensive than discs, but given that most big modern games sell for more than NES/SNES games did, and the low cost of hardware these days, this expense should be minimal. (For example, you can get an SSD big enough to hold a AAA game for under $25 retail. Wholesale, it'd be even less than that.)
But still orders of magnitude more expensive than a download.
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Sorry, I should have clarified. Those are handheld gaming systems;
Ok...?
@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
I was talking about a classic-style console that connects to a TV, and as far as I know, there hasn't been one of those that uses cartridges since the N64.
The Switch is also that. So is the Ouya.
If this was that "StackOverflow" site you like so much, we'd push all the thumbs down button because you didn't search before asking, buddy!!!
@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Nope. It was downloads-only. (I know this by personal experience; I was a Kickstarter backer on the project and still have the console.)
Oh, ok. Fair enough. Wired had a blurb that implied it did, but I guess Google showed me the blurb out of context. I wasn't dumb enough to buy an Ouya, so I have no first-hand experience. ;)
@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
I gave a specific clarification that I was referring to "desktop" consoles that connect to a TV, and not handheld gaming systems.
What you're missing is that Switch is that.
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@twelvebaud said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Like, seriously, I get the feeling I should be asking Poe or Noe...
Likewise. Literally none of this makes any sense.
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@masonwheeler But the Switch is a "desktop" console that does connect to a TV. It has the hardware to run high-end modern gaming titles; it arguably has better hardware than the PS4 (which I assume you consider a "desktop" console). That you can optionally use it handheld (at half GPU speed and no perceptual loss of performance) doesn't invalidate that it's a "desktop" console in its own right.
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@polygeekery They were harder to pirate too.
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@mott555 said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
@heterodox I'd actually consider buying an iPhone if it tasted like tacos.
That would be an expensive taco.
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@twelvebaud said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
it arguably has better hardware than the PS4
Well you could also argue that a camel has better hardware than the PS4, but it wouldn't be a very good argument.
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@blakeyrat said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
What you're missing is that Switch is that.
Is it? I don't actually have one, but every image I've ever seen of the Switch is of a tablet-sized handheld gaming system, being held in people's hands.
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Is it? I don't actually have one, but every image I've ever seen of the Switch is of a tablet-sized handheld gaming system, being held in people's hands.
Nintendo finally gave the fuck up on competing with Xbox and Playstation because they're useless at hardware, so their new "home" console is also their portable console. But it's designed to be plugged into a TV more than to be portable.
I assume the Gameboy/DS/whatever it's called now is going to go away imminently.
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Is it? I don't actually have one, but every image I've ever seen of the Switch is of a tablet-sized handheld gaming system, being held in people's hands.
LMWTFY:
Nintendo considers the Switch a "hybrid" console: it is designed primarily as a home console, with the main unit inserted onto a docking station to connect to a television. Alternatively, it can be removed from the dock and used similarly to a tablet computer through its LCD touchscreen, or placed in a standalone tabletop mode visible to several players. (emphasis mine)
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@heterodox said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Nintendo considers the Switch a "hybrid" console: it is designed primarily as a home console, with the main unit inserted onto a docking station to connect to a television. Alternatively, it can be removed from the dock and used similarly to a tablet computer through its LCD touchscreen, or placed in a standalone tabletop mode visible to several players. (emphasis mine)
Huh. TIL...
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
From the business side, supporting large downloads is expensive
No. From the business side, downloads are 100 times better because you cannot sell used games or trade them with siblings and friends. Everyone is forced to buy a copy unless they share a household.
I'm actually wondering whether consoles will be download-only as soon as actual broadband is ubiquitous. It would fuck over people who don't own a credit card and be the nail in the coffin for GameStop.
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@blakeyrat Camels have direct access to their hump. PS4's have USB 2.0 and a running-another-FreeBSD-because-why-not I/O bridge between it and its HDD.
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@blakeyrat said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
I assume the Gameboy/DS/whatever it's called now is going to go away imminently.
Not sure about that. The Switch is definitely not child-proof, it's too easy to break. And children are a large target group for Nintendo.
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Huh. TIL...
Well they did the same thing with the Wii-U if you'll remember. It came with this stupid $150 giganto controller that could play the games "portably" (well, within Bluetooth range) while the TV was showing something else. The Switch just takes that to the next level.
One of the reasons I never bought a Wii-U is because that particular feature is useless to me, and Nintendo never sold a version of the console without it, even though tons of people would have bought it if it meant saving $150 on a feature they neither wanted nor needed. (To be fair, the XBone did this with the Kinect, but eventually Microsoft wised up and sold the cheaper version without the feature nobody asked for or wanted.)
Similarly, I might consider buying a Switch if I could get it without the battery and tiny screen (but with a real controller) at a discount. But I'm guessing Nintendo will never make that because, as I said above, they're shit at hardware.
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@twelvebaud That's great, but anybody who has eyeballs can say there's no comparison between the PS4 and the Switch if you're looking at comparable games. That Zelda game is so "impressive" because they turned the cel-shading up to megafinity to make the GPU run smoother (and called it a "art style"-- guess what, Skyrim runs better if you remove all the textures too!), and it still gets frame skips at times.
That's not to say the Switch is a bad product or anything, it definitely exists in a space where Playstation and Xbox One can't compete at the moment. But hardware-wise, saying it's on par with either of those two consoles is ridiculous.
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Wii-U kind of the same
In some cases yes, but that's not a universal feature, nor the primary purpose of the Gamepad. Some (many? most? I dunno) games allowed you to play on the gamepad alone without using the TV, but other games had to be played on the TV, with the gamepad acting as a menu/map/whatever screen like on the DS and 3DS.
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@blakeyrat said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Nintendo finally gave the fuck up on competing with Xbox and Playstation
Well, what would have been the point? The PlayStation won the console war and nobody would have bought the next Wii U if it was just a regular console. They needed a differentiator or everybody would have just waited for the PS 5 (or the next Xbox - although I don't know why you'd choose that platform these days when all interesting exclusives are released for the PS).
The fact that the PS Vita was left to die gave them the opportunity to completely avoid the competition with Sony, which they would have never won, and focus on fixing what was wrong with the Wii U - switch to x86 and make it truly portable. Now they can even collaborate with Sony on portable games and fill a niche with no big competitors. It was a smart business move and pretty much the only sane choice.
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@hungrier Yeah just like Battlefield 4 and One, and Fallout 4 let you use your cellphone as a "second screen" for the game, but guess what? That sucks ass, and nobody uses it when they have the choice not to.
I seriously want on the fence about buying a Wii-U but that gigantic plastic moron-controller was the deciding thing slamming a giant "no" in my brain.
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There's also a forgotten distribution system
However, possibly the most audacious part of Nintendo’s new scheme was the installation of Disk System Kiosks in retail outlets all over Japan. “These allowed Famicom owners to purchase a blank Disk Card for ¥2000 and then insert it into the kiosk to have a game of their choice written to it for an additional ¥500,” explains Dillard. “Because the Disk Cards were rewritable, consumers could then bring their disk back to the kiosk to have a new game written over it when they'd finished their previous one.”
You could have an online system like Steam but distribute kiosks to allow anyone to download the encrypted files to a USB drive.
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@dfdub said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Well, what would have been the point? The PlayStation won the console war and nobody would have bought the next Wii U if it was just a regular console. They needed a differentiator or everybody would have just waited for the PS 5 (or the next Xbox - although I don't know why you'd choose that platform these days when all interesting exclusives are released for the PS).
Xbox 360 dominated the last generation, the next Xbox might dominate the next. Hard to say at this point.
But yeah, the Xbone has been at best disappointing. Microsoft could have just done a copy-and-paste of the Xbox 360 OS and ended up with a far superior machine to the one they actually shipped. The Kinect thing was a huge strategic mistake. And while those issues are both resolved now (although honestly even in 2018 the OS is still better on the 360), the customer base isn't rushing back to the product because the first impression was so lousy.
That said I still can't bring myself to pay Sony for hardware after their shitty DVD player destroyed my Alien box set. Fuck Sony. And from my experience with the Vita, I know their console OS and store is utter broken shit compared to Microsoft's.
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@dfdub said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
I'm actually wondering whether consoles will be download-only as soon as actual broadband is ubiquitous.
Broadband is ubiquitous already. It has been for many ye... oh, you mean USA.
Well then, lets hope USA never gets better internet. I like having physical offline copy of everything I own.
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
In the world can't even get a sustained 10 MB/sec download rate, which means downloading a modern tens-of-GB game can take a day or longer.
It takes 3-5 business days for a physical cartridge to ship.
- Downloads are expensive and just getting worse, particularly in the USA. With a highly uncompetitive broadband industry free to set high prices, and then apply caps and overage fees on top of that, and the repeal of net neutrality removing disincentives to do so, downloading large games is making less sense every day.
If that's true, then Netflix and YouTube must be at the cusp of being wiped out and being replaced with Blockbuster again. But they aren't, so your argument has no merit.
- From the business side, supporting large downloads is expensive, because it means you have to have all these enormous game images stored on some cloud server somewhere. Just imagine what Steam's infrastructure costs are!
Probably less than Nintendo's warehouse and shipping costs must've been when they had to store physical cartridges somewhere. What, do you think they magically puff into existence?
- Cartridges may be more expensive than discs, but given that most big modern games sell for more than NES/SNES games did, and the low cost of hardware these days, this expense should be minimal. (For example, you can get an SSD big enough to hold a AAA game for under $25 retail. Wholesale, it'd be even less than that.)
$25 for the SSD + $5 shipping + $?? for the royalties + $?? for the storage costs + tax. The physical device and shipping can be replaced with a nominal charge for bandwidth. The physical storage costs can be replaced with a small charge for storing it digitally. That's at least $30 saved right there.
What would be the disadvantages?
Pretty much everything that has ever been shitty about physical media. I mean, helplessly blowing into your cartridge is a fond pastime but I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore.
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@gąska said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Broadband is ubiquitous already. It has been for many ye... oh, you mean USA.
Well then, lets hope USA never gets better internet.I hate to say it, but I have friends who live miles outside of town in rural counties with a population of only a few thousand people, and even they have 100 Mbps fiber connections now. (Which, funny enough, is a much better connection than big city dwellers who are forced to run CenturyLink DSL because of dumb apartment/ISP monopoly agreements.)
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@blakeyrat said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
The Kinect thing was a huge strategic mistake.
It was basically Microsoft's tablet controller - just like Nintendo with the Wii U, they bet on a trend that didn't turn out to become a thing. The Wii U controller became completely ridiculous and unnecessary when Android/iOS tablet started being sold and the Kinect stopped being cool after the first VR demos. Also, Microsoft overestimated the longevity of the "sports game" hype the original Wii created.
Sony only won because they were conservative. I'm still not a fan of the company, though - I own too many mediocre Sony products for that.
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@dfdub said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
It was basically Microsoft's tablet controller - just like Nintendo with the Wii U, they bet on a trend that didn't turn out to become a thing.
Right but like I said at least if I buy a Xbone now I don't have to pay for (and throw away or store) the Kinect bar. If you buy even the last Wii-U from the factory, you're forced to pay $150 for the dumb screen-controller you never wanted.
So Microsoft made a bad mistake, but at least they didn't boneheadedly stick to it.
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@blakeyrat said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
So Microsoft made a bad mistake, but at least they didn't boneheadedly stick to it.
Well, at the time the mistake became obvious, it was arguably too late for that console generation anyway. At least they then made Splatoon near the EOL of the Wii U, to show off what they wanted to achieve with that controller. And I have to admit, it made me wonder whether the controller might have been more useful had the Wii U had a large enough market share for developers to actually give a shit about it in their ports.
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@the_quiet_one said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
I mean, helplessly blowing into your cartridge is a fond pastime but I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore.
When's the last time you blew into a USB stick?
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@masonwheeler Activating the DUI interlock on my Tesla
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@the_quiet_one said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
helplessly blowing into your cartridge is a fond pastime but I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore.
You know, this was just a strategy to make you unplug and plug back your cartridge hoping the contact would be made
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@timebandit said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
@the_quiet_one said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
helplessly blowing into your cartridge is a fond pastime but I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore.
You know, this was just a strategy to make you unplug and plug back your cartridge hoping the contact would be made
Yes, of course I do. Tongue in cheek is a fond pastime of mine, too.
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@anonymous234 said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
From the business side, supporting large downloads is expensive, because it means you have to have all these enormous game images stored on some cloud server somewhere. Just imagine what Steam's infrastructure costs are!
I feel like someone should remind companies that P2P is a thing.
Steam uses that IIRC.
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@masonwheeler said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
Sorry, I should have clarified. Those are handheld gaming systems; I was talking about a classic-style console that connects to a TV, and as far as I know, there hasn't been one of those that uses cartridges since the N64.
The Switch is a handheld console that connects to the TV. Have you never even seen the thing in action?
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@blakeyrat said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
@twelvebaud That's great, but anybody who has eyeballs can say there's no comparison between the PS4 and the Switch if you're looking at comparable games. That Zelda game is so "impressive" because they turned the cel-shading up to megafinity to make the GPU run smoother (and called it a "art style"-- guess what, Skyrim runs better if you remove all the textures too!), and it still gets frame skips at times.
And it's 30FPS when everything else on the Switch is 60.
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@pie_flavor said in A new cartridge-based gaming console: brilliant or brillant?:
The Switch is a handheld console that connects to the TV. Have you never even seen the thing in action?
Nope.
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@pie_flavor I mean you could argue how much of that is due to the Switch hardware and how much is due to their experience in making open-world games. Bethesda's been doing it a long time.
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@blakeyrat Super Mario Odyssey runs just fine and looks beautiful too.