I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games
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Because their idiot moron government has just made a decision that practically guarantees no game company will sell in their region. And it's enforceable by prison time for the game's producers.
Strangely their anti-loot-box law makes Overwatch, FIFA 2018, and Counterstrike: Global Offensive all illegal, but not Star Wars Battlefront II-- the game that started the whole brouhaha in the first place.
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@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Strangely their anti-loot-box law makes Overwatch, FIFA 2018, and Counterstrike: Global Offensive all illegal, but not Star Wars Battlefront II-- the game that started the whole brouhaha in the first place.
Well, they removed the microtransactions involved in lootboxes, didn't they? So why should they be in violation?
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@polygeekery Yes, I'm wondering about that as well. I mean, they did not ban microtransactions, paid DLCs or cosmetic stuff. They banned randomized results from monetary transactions.
However, I dare say that Hearthstone has a bit of a problem now.
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@rhywden yeah, there was one part of the article that stuck out to me:
US politician Chris Lee condemned the use of loot boxes in video games in November 2017.
He criticised the "predatory practices" of developers, specifically targeting Battlefront II by calling it a "Star Wars-themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money".
US authorities decided that games using loot crates did not constitute gambling because players do get some kind of reward when they acquire the boxes.
While in the UK, the Gambling Commission took a similar stance and said the boxes did not come under its control because rewards were usable only in the game.
But the Belgium Gaming Commission has disagreed, instead focusing on whether the loot boxes constitute a "game of chance" - the use of a game element which involves a bet that can by chance lead to profit or loss.
It cited a series of issues with how loot boxes function, such as the use of virtual currency which can be purchased for real money, and the way that some loot boxes make players think they will gain an advantage despite their random contents.
How can loot boxes lead to profit? It seems like they are just a loss. If the game has a mechanism where you can sell items for real currency and not just in-game currency then they have a point. As far as I know these games do not. To me this is not gambling. It is just buying stuff in-game. The randomness involved in loot boxes is not actual gambling, it is just a shitty game mechanic.
I think lootboxes are bullshit. I think they are a horrible game experience. But I also think that the best way to protest them is to just not play the game or not buy lootboxes. Back when I played a lot of games I remember you shelled out your $50 and the game was yours to play as much as you wanted. Then World of Warcraft came along and in addition to buying the game for $60 you also had to pay a few dollars a month in order to even use it. I thought that was bullshit in and of itself. If the product is actually the service of online play then they should give you the game for free, let you install it and then charge you for the server access.
Now games are taking it to entirely new levels. Shit like this should just cause people to not buy games that try to fleece you at every turn. I do not think it is something that law makers should be worrying themselves about.
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@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
As far as I know these games do not.
Oh, you poor, poor soul. CS:GO definitely does, at the very least.
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@magus said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
As far as I know these games do not.
Oh, you poor, poor soul. CS:GO definitely does, at the very least.
Well, that is a shitty idea. If you can buy lootboxes with randomized contents and then turn around and sell them for real money...that is gambling.
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@polygeekery Yes. And people have been to court for running gambling websites and advertising them as if they've just discovered them, giving themselves lots of good luck, and watching the money pour in.
There's a reason people have been getting more and more upset about this over the years. It's actually being abused.
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@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
the best way to protest them is to just not play the game or not buy lootboxes
@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Shit like this should just cause people to not buy games that try to fleece you at every turn.
Last time I suggested that it turned into a huge spat that died off by now. Maybe this time I'll have the time to keep responding, see if it keeps going longer...
But yeah, apparently we need fucking regulation to get rid of that shit, as shitty as that is, because people are just sheep and they keep inventing excuses about that kind of crap because they have no self-control and HAVE TO play the latest shiny. FTR, I only buy games that contain modern style DLC because if I didn't I'd barely be able to buy anything at all. We got fucked on that front already and it's here to stay, sadly.
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@magus lots of shit gets abused. But you cannot outlaw stupidity. If someone finds out a way to do so I will throw all my weight behind the initiative.
But if they are instituting gambling then they can follow the laws that regard to that.
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@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@magus lots of shit gets abused. But you cannot outlaw stupidity.
But you can try~~~
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@gąska said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@magus lots of shit gets abused. But you cannot outlaw stupidity.
But you can try~~~
...and fail.
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@blakeyrat if they lose pay to win games, nothing of value was losts.
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@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
[Belgium’s] idiot moron government
Which one of the half-dozen they have?
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@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Well, they removed the microtransactions involved in lootboxes, didn't they? So why should they be in violation?
I didn't realize they'd completely removed them I guess, I thought it was just a temporary thing while they rebalanced the game.
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@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Well, they removed the microtransactions involved in lootboxes, didn't they? So why should they be in violation?
I didn't realize they'd completely removed them I guess, I thought it was just a temporary thing while they rebalanced the game.
Don't quote me on that. I remember reading that they halted them. I have not heard anything about them being reinstated and I would assume that the reason they are not afoul of this Belgian law is because they had not.
That is a lot of assumptions strung together to get to the conclusion I made. I certainly could be mistaken.
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@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
How can loot boxes lead to profit?
CS:GO lets you resell items you get in loot boxes, doesn't it? Using the Steam inventory/auction system.
The other games, it's less clear.
@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
If the product is actually the service of online play then they should give you the game for free, let you install it and then charge you for the server access.
Current MMOs do the opposite. They charge you the initial game purchase price, but give you server access forever if you do.
@onyx said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
But yeah, apparently we need fucking regulation to get rid of that shit, as shitty as that is, because people are just sheep and they keep inventing excuses about that kind of crap because they have no self-control and HAVE TO play the latest shiny. FTR, I only buy games that contain modern style DLC because if I didn't I'd barely be able to buy anything at all. We got fucked on that front already and it's here to stay, sadly.
Does Belgium run a lottery?
I find all anti-gambling legislation extremely hypocritical when the governments passing them usually run their own private lottery at the same time.
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@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
CS:GO lets you resell items you get in loot boxes, doesn't it? Using the Steam inventory/auction system.
The other games, it's less clear.I was mistaken.
@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Does Belgium run a lottery?
Yes.
@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
I find all anti-gambling legislation extremely hypocritical when the governments passing them usually run their own private lottery at the same time.
Agreed.
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@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
I find all anti-gambling legislation extremely hypocritical when the governments passing them usually run their own private lottery at the same time.
I admittedly haven't read the document, but is it a ban or they just want to regulate it just as they regulate the lottery? Because I'd expect the latter.
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I seem to recall the same issue was in the news here (Netherlands) as well recently, but I don't recall whether that was about this Belgian ruling or a separate Dutch investigation.
Gambling is regulated. Companies offering gambling need a license. They are required to invest a certain percentage of the total ticket yield in prizes, and another percentage of it needs to go to charity. Ticket sales are not subject to VAT (usually 21%), but the prizes are subject to a 30% gambling tax; for non-monetary prizes this is calculated over the retail value of the prize. Legality of casinos was extended a few years back (used to be a state monopoly), but casinos have special obligations regarding monitoring for gambling addictions. Online gambling got legalized recently.
There is a national lottery, and there was a lawsuit last year because it did not make the prize threshold. I am uncertain whether it supports third-party charities; they may have classified the government as a charity.All that applies to the Dutch rules as I understand them. Belgian rules may be different.
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@sockpuppet7 That's just it, though. Games can still be pay to win, just not with randomized loot.
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@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@magus lots of shit gets abused. But you cannot outlaw stupidity. If someone finds out a way to do so I will throw all my weight behind the initiative.
But if they are instituting gambling then they can follow the laws that regard to that.
It's not only protection against stupidity but also against inexperience. I have children playing games. As an experienced gamer myself, I can guide and protect them against gambling abuse but many parents know a lot less about gaming than their own children. I don't mind the law, I don't mind that games with gambling will not be available here. One less thing to worry about when my kids play.
I doubt that the Belgian law will make a dent, but someone has got to go first. Hopefully enough countries will follow so that game developers will have no choice but to remove gambling from their games.
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@bjolling You can't account for stupidity. If your kid spends money on loot boxes because you didn't parent them well enough (or make sure they couldn't), then that's your own damn problem. This is not gambling, and B*****m is being really really stupid with this (can't account for it in government either).
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@pie_flavor You do know you haven't gotten any less wrong on this, right? Just checking.
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@magus Yes, I know I haven't gotten any less right.
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@bjolling said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@magus lots of shit gets abused. But you cannot outlaw stupidity. If someone finds out a way to do so I will throw all my weight behind the initiative.
But if they are instituting gambling then they can follow the laws that regard to that.
It's not only protection against stupidity but also against inexperience. I have children playing games. As an experienced gamer myself, I can guide and protect them against gambling abuse but many parents know a lot less about gaming than their own children. I don't mind the law, I don't mind that games with gambling will not be available here. One less thing to worry about when my kids play.
I doubt that the Belgian law will make a dent, but someone has got to go first. Hopefully enough countries will follow so that game developers will have no choice but to remove gambling from their games.Watch your kids. Problem solved.
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@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
How can loot boxes lead to profit?
If loot boxes can lead to profit according to this law, then literally any gameplay mechanic that involves random chance is gambling.
Killed a raid boss and didn't get the drop you wanted? Ban the game in B*****m.
And why limit it to games? Surely any computer program that can cause emotions or the gain or loss of currency that involves random chance would be gambling under this law. And because every secure protocol involves some degree of randomness, all websites are gambling.
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@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@magus said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
As far as I know these games do not.
Oh, you poor, poor soul. CS:GO definitely does, at the very least.
Well, that is a shitty idea. If you can buy lootboxes with randomized contents and then turn around and sell them for real money...that is gambling.
You can't get real money. You can get Steam Wallet money, which functions like real money on Steam, but can never be taken out of Steam.
@magus said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@polygeekery Yes. And people have been to court for running gambling websites and advertising them as if they've just discovered them, giving themselves lots of good luck, and watching the money pour in.
There's a reason people have been getting more and more upset about this over the years. It's actually being abused.
Valve has been very clear that third party real money item trading websites are against Steam's TOS, and they've taken several of those websites to court.
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@ben_lubar said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Valve has been very clear that third party real money item trading websites are against Steam's TOS, and they've taken several of those websites to court.
Maybe they shouldn't design a system where that's the natural thing to have happen?
"Hey, we know you shouldn't do this thing that would be easy to do with our system, but if you do, we'll take you to court! Only we get to make all the money by exploiting human nature!"
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@pleegwat The Dutch investigation was different. IIRC they mentioned that 4 of 11 games they tested fell through, but didn't give out any names. And IIRC the problem was only if the loot box contents could be re-sold. So I guess in the Netherlands e.g. Overwatch should be safe, but CS:GO not.
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@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@bjolling said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@polygeekery said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@magus lots of shit gets abused. But you cannot outlaw stupidity. If someone finds out a way to do so I will throw all my weight behind the initiative.
But if they are instituting gambling then they can follow the laws that regard to that.
It's not only protection against stupidity but also against inexperience. I have children playing games. As an experienced gamer myself, I can guide and protect them against gambling abuse but many parents know a lot less about gaming than their own children. I don't mind the law, I don't mind that games with gambling will not be available here. One less thing to worry about when my kids play.
I doubt that the Belgian law will make a dent, but someone has got to go first. Hopefully enough countries will follow so that game developers will have no choice but to remove gambling from their games.Watch your kids. Problem solved.
Not everybody knows or understands what happens inside the games their kids play. Plenty of people have no clue that it might involve (some form of (hopefully INB4: it's not gambling, stupid!) ) gambling.
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@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Because their idiot moron government has just made a decision that practically guarantees no game company will sell in their region. And it's enforceable by prison time for the game's producers.
The most moronic thing they did was trying to tackle this problem on their own instead of doing it on the level of the EU. Because this is national legislation, the UK, the Netherlands and now Belgium have different interpretations of what constitutes gambling in games. It's impossible for game developers to comply with every regulation for every country.
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@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
This is not gambling
That depends on what Belgian laws define “gambling” to be, doesn’t it? I consider an AR-15 without its lower receiver to still be a firearm, but American laws don’t, for example, and in America, the latter opinion is what counts. IANAL, but In Belgium, the law’s opinion might just be that the thing under discussion here is gambling, and so that opinion is what counts there.
B*****m is being really really stupid with this
As someone who regularly watches the Flemish TV news, I can’t say I’m surprised :)
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@bjolling said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Because their idiot moron government has just made a decision that practically guarantees no game company will sell in their region. And it's enforceable by prison time for the game's producers.
The most moronic thing they did was trying to tackle this problem on their own instead of doing it on the level of the EU. Because this is national legislation, the UK, the Netherlands and now Belgium have different interpretations of what constitutes gambling in games. It's impossible for game developers to comply with every regulation for every country.
Oh God, don't say that. Imagine if the EU really did pass a law banning loot boxes.
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@ben_lubar said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Killed a raid boss and didn't get the drop you wanted? Ban the game in B*****m.
How much did it cost you to kill that raid boss?
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@jaloopa You bought the game, didn't you?
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@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@bjolling said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@blakeyrat said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Because their idiot moron government has just made a decision that practically guarantees no game company will sell in their region. And it's enforceable by prison time for the game's producers.
The most moronic thing they did was trying to tackle this problem on their own instead of doing it on the level of the EU. Because this is national legislation, the UK, the Netherlands and now Belgium have different interpretations of what constitutes gambling in games. It's impossible for game developers to comply with every regulation for every country.
Oh God, don't say that. Imagine if the EU really did pass a law banning loot boxes.
Not exactly what I meant. It's the EU rather than Belgium that should come up with a definition of what kind mechanism are allowed or not in games, maybe connected to an age-rating or other criteria. If they would take the UK definition over the Belgian one, thus allowing loot boxes, that would be fine by me.
Edit: and if the EU would disallow gambling with loot boxes, it will be easier for the game industry to adapt
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@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Yes, I know I haven't gotten any less right.
Getting less right would somehow involve persuading others that these games aren't at least exceptionally close to gambling…
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@grunnen said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@pleegwat The Dutch investigation was different. IIRC they mentioned that 4 of 11 games they tested fell through, but didn't give out any names. And IIRC the problem was only if the loot box contents could be re-sold. So I guess in the Netherlands e.g. Overwatch should be safe, but CS:GO not.
Right. And there's also a parallel with physical trading card games to consider. Why would hearthstone be illegal if magic the gathering is not?
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They haven't made an anti-loot box law, they've just enforced the existing gambling laws which already made them illegal. You can't just choose not to enforce laws because people are doing things digitally rather than with paper.
I for one am sick of seeing so many people throw thousands of euros on virtual hats. I don't care if "it's their money", it's entirely irrational spending on their part and entirely undeserved money for the seller. And the market affects everyone.
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@jaloopa said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
How much did it cost you to kill that raid boss?
@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@jaloopa You bought the game, didn't you?
Plus two broken monitors, three new keyboards, 16 hours of Internet access, 3 months' subscription to Discord Nitro, and the new blood pressure medication...
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@izzion said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
3 months' subscription to Discord Nitro
You're the one!!!
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@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Oh God, don't say that. Imagine if the EU really did pass a law banning loot boxes.
Looking forward to it. It's a scummy business model designed to get far more money out of people than just selling what they want. You've just let them tell you it 'promotes player choice' and believed them, as they continue to exploit people.
@anonymous234 said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
I for one am sick of seeing so many people throw thousands of euros on virtual hats. I don't care if "it's their money", it's entirely irrational spending on their part and entirely undeserved money for the seller. And the market affects everyone.
And yet there's a difference between spending thousands of euros at virtual hats, and spending several times that to get the same number of hats, because they've decided the only way to get the things you want is chance.
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@magus said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
there's a difference between spending thousands of euros at virtual hats, and spending several times that to get the same number of hats, because they've decided the only way to get the things you want is chance
QFT
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@magus said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@ben_lubar said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Valve has been very clear that third party real money item trading websites are against Steam's TOS, and they've taken several of those websites to court.
Maybe they shouldn't design a system where that's the natural thing to have happen?
"Hey, we know you shouldn't do this thing that would be easy to do with our system, but if you do, we'll take you to court! Only we get to make all the money by exploiting human nature!"
... real world trading will happen in any situation where virtual items are somewhat rare and desirable and there is a trading system in the game.
Which of those things do you think Valve shouldn't have put into the system?
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- Randomized loot you buy with real money
- The ability to sell loot for things outside the game
Because honestly, your Steam wallet acts a while lot more like real money than Bitcoin does.
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@ben_lubar said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
... real world trading will happen in any situation where virtual items are somewhat rare and desirable and there is a trading system in the game.
Which of those things do you think Valve shouldn't have put into the system?The ability to buy the items for real money from Valve.
When you pay explicitly pay for the random loot drop, the company is incentivized to make it more and more tempting, so they extract a possibly unlimited amount of money.
However, you don't explicitly pay for the chance to kill a boss.
You pay for the game once and kill the boss as many times as you want.
Even in a subscription online game, you pay for the time - the cost is capped and known well in advance.
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@anonymous234 said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
I for one am sick of seeing so many people throw thousands of euros on virtual hats. I don't care if "it's their money", it's entirely irrational spending on their part and entirely undeserved money for the seller. And the market affects everyone.
I for one am sick of seeing so many people throw
thousands of dollars on cable television. I don't care if "it's their money", it's entirely irrational spending on their part and entirely undeserved money for the seller. And the market affects everyone.And yet what people do with their own money remains their own choice.
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@dkf said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Yes, I know I haven't gotten any less right.
Getting less right would somehow involve persuading others that these games aren't at least exceptionally close to gambling…
Well, they're not. Gambling is when you sink money in with the hope of getting more money out. It is not when you sink money in to get an in-game non-sellable reward, except you don't know what that reward is ahead of time.
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@magus said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Looking forward to it. It's a scummy business model designed to get far more money out of people than just selling what they want. You've just let them tell you it 'promotes player choice' and believed them, as they continue to exploit people.
It's good game design is what it is. Let's take Overwatch for example. It has a bunch of cosmetics - player icons, sprays, voice lines, emotes, skins, and highlight intros. Of them, some are good, some are not so good, and some are completely meh. If you could just buy the cosmetic you wanted, then they lose all their appeal, because the best cosmetics just become a target to buy instead of a target to earn. The players who don't buy feel dicked over, so you replace the entire lootbox system with a currency system. Now everyone can buy the single cosmetic they want, and 99% of the cosmetics that Blizzard painstakingly sunk time and effort into get completely unused. So maybe you instead raise the prices drastically. Now it goes back to "just buy it", and for those who don't, it's a goddamn grind.
The lootbox system ensures that (a) you cannot lunge directly for the cosmetic you want and never pay attention to drops instead, and (b) there is no unfairness between those who buy and those who earn.
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@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Now everyone can buy the single cosmetic they want, and 99% of the cosmetics that Blizzard painstakingly sunk time and effort into get completely unused.
Which is 100% benefit for the playerbase.
@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
Now it goes back to "just buy it", and for those who don't, it's a goddamn grind.
It's cosmetic, so there isn't really room to complain there.
@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
(a) you cannot lunge directly for the cosmetic you want and never pay attention to drops instead
Which is only a negative thing.
@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
(b) there is no unfairness between those who buy and those who earn.
"Fairness" does not come in here. It's cosmetic. For users who pay money, the difference is between paying money for what you want, and paying 8x as much and maybe getting something you want. I would be totally fine if free players couldn't get the cosmetics at all. The fact that they can grind for them means they have to think about it more, and are given more chances to see the "refill premium currency" screens, and the low, low numbers on premium currency prices.
@pie_flavor said in I hope Belgiumites don't like playing video games:
It's good game design is what it is.
Not in a million years. Lootboxes are done 100% because it makes more money. It will always make more money than not having them, because having them means people can pay money to get nothing they wanted, except maybe one slightly intriguing thing. Which entices them to keep on spending.