Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!)
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@lolwhat said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
I think you will always be able to override a robocar, just like you can override the autopilot in commercial aircraft.
Yeah, that won't happen unless it's fought against.
If you don’t signal and try to change lanes, motors connected to the steering gear will countersteer to try to prevent you from changing lanes. You have to fight the computer’s determination to prevent your lane change. This is actually far more dangerous – far less saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafe – than not signaling a lane change when there’s no traffic around.
obey speed limits
Do I need to re-post that video from that guy in Canada about speed limits sometimes being set stupefyingly low?
While the article there points out some really stupid things (taking the car out of gear if you have the door open, WTF??), I'd point out there's probably a different reason for the feature you're describing. Rather than it being designed to force you to signal, it's probably designed to prevent you from accidentally departing the lane, and this behavior is a side-effect of that (since, if you've got your turn signal on, you're intentionally changing lanes)
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@sloosecannon And if you're swerving suddenly to avoid something in the road?
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@lolwhat said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@sloosecannon And if you're swerving suddenly to avoid something in the road?
If you're swerving to avoid something, you're moving the wheel much harder than a little counter-steer is gonna stop.
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@sloosecannon And if you aren't prepared for the pushback, you may not swerve enough.
Anyway, speaking of sociopathy:
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Video of the accident from the car's cameras (looking both forward and at the driver):
https://www.recode.net/2018/3/21/17149428/uber-self-driving-fatal-accident-video-tempe-arizona
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@mzh said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Video of the accident from the car's cameras (looking both forward and at the driver):
Wow. I might have panicked and ended up swerving off (after hitting the pedestrian) and killed myself, too.
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@mzh said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Video of the accident from the car's cameras (looking both forward and at the driver):
Holy crap.
That said, if the car had more than visible light sensors, like lidar and sonar, it could have seen the pedestrian no matter how dark it was. I have no idea what sensors the volvo system is equipped with though.
The video is a, well maybe not nice so lets say good, showcase of how invisible you are as a pedestrian at night however.
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The article is written by a douche. It's not because he can't find use for some features they shouldn't be there or they shouldn't be on by default. Modern cars are indeed way more smarter and try to take preventive actions, like when the windscreen wipers are active and I put it in reverse the back windscreen wiper is activated.
I do get the annoyance that car settings are incredibly sparse ... almost all behavior is baked in or can only by changed by making a diagnostic connection.This is why cars have back-up cameras now, incidentally. A handful of negligent parents didn’t parent their kids – backed up over their kids, whom they’d lost track of – and now we are all parented.
have you been smoking dude? now back-up camera's and sensors are unnecessary feature ... I guess we also don't need satnav as well.
This is actually far more dangerous – far less saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafe – than not signaling a lane change when there’s no traffic around.
Did he actually try this? His description seems to either indicate xhe didn't or xhe's overreaching heavily. The pushback is a gentle nudge on all cars I have driven with this feature. If you swerve unintended it will generally won't be enough to keep you straight again. If it is intentionally the sheer action of turning the wheel (even slightly) overrides the nudge. The lane detection is often screwed by temporary lanes during road works. If your car control is undermined by this nudge you are not in control of your vehicle.
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@lolwhat said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
And if you're swerving suddenly to avoid something in the road?
You don't have lane control do you? If you need to change direction suddenly you do so. You will feel a tremble in the steering wheel for a second like you drive over an auditive lane marking.
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Reddit user does some math based on the released video.
Bottom line, Uber may be scummy, but neither they nor the driver were at fault here. Don't jaywalk at night in black shirt without reflectors.
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@luhmann Also, seeing no one around doesn't mean there's no one around. You should always signal in case there's someone you didn't see. The article has "don't let facts get in the way of a rant" written all over it.
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@khudzlin
While driving to work this morning I also got a notification from the collision detection that if I didn't follow the bend in the street I would collide with the parked cars. I guess I could write a rant about that or I'll just take it as a pre-emptive warning and keep on hoping that it will remain with false warnings.
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@lolwhat When you start my parents' car, the touch screen shows you a message like "Please drive safe and follow all the local traffic laws and regulations". And you have to tap "I agree" to turn it off.
I wonder if some of these drive safe weenies is gonna try to excuse that.
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@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
The video is a, well maybe not nice so lets say good, showcase of how invisible you are as a pedestrian at night however.
We can't say that a person would not have been able to see the pedestrian without knowing about the characteristics of the camera used. For example, chances are that if you turn your phone's camera on in a dark room, the viewfinder will be mostly dark, even if you can see everything in the room clearly. It may be possible that a human driver would have had maybe 3, 4s to respond. I guess we'll wait for the investigation.
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@cartman82 said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Bottom line, Uber may be scummy, but neither they nor the driver were at fault here.
Doesn't that depend on what other sensors the car had? If there was a LIDAR or some other active system, then the darkness shouldn't have mattered. The woman was directly in front of the car; why wasn't any evasive or braking action taken?
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@mzh this is the most worrying part of this. We don't know what their LIDAR system saw, but it should have detected the pedestrian. If she was in the LIDAR data but was not recognized, then I think Uber's extra screwed. This is not an acceptable failure case.
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@mzh said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@cartman82 said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Bottom line, Uber may be scummy, but neither they nor the driver were at fault here.
Doesn't that depend on what other sensors the car had? If there was a LIDAR or some other active system, then the darkness shouldn't have mattered. The woman was directly in front of the car; why wasn't any evasive or braking action taken?
It is a prototype, and prototypes fail.
In this case, it does seem a bit odd that both LIDAR and RADARs missed the pedestrian. That the visible spectrum cameras did miss isn't very strange. But it may have been a case of "Two out of three systems says there is nothing there, one system reports something strange, so third system is probably mistaken, ignore and carry on."
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@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
That the visible spectrum cameras did miss isn't very strange.
This assumes that the video comes from the same cameras that the car computer uses and not, say, a cheap dashcam.
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@mzh said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
That the visible spectrum cameras did miss isn't very strange.
This assumes that the video comes from the same cameras that the car computer uses and not, say, a cheap dashcam.
Well, yes. But cameras are in general rather poor when it comes to managing large differences of available light.
A powerful street light could effectively make a camera blind to stuff that is outside of the light. Human eyes have far better range than most cameras in this area, and even human eyes are pretty shit at being inside a lit area and seeing anything outside if it is significantly darker.
Though, I am fairly disinterrested in optics and camera sensors, but I am afflicted with a handful of friends that does that stuff for a hobby, and they keep telling me that.
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@mzh What the fuck is wrong with those people.
She was wearing black
She had a fucking street light if she moved her deceased ass 40 meters
Her fucking bike had no reflective elements whatsoever!I know a suicide when I see one.
If she lived, I'd made her pay for repairing the car and changing the driver seat (which he probably shat).
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@cartman82 said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Reddit user does some math based on the released video.
Bottom line, Uber may be scummy, but neither they nor the driver were at fault here. Don't jaywalk at night in black shirt without reflectors.
That analysis strikes me as total bullshit, because:
- The car "sees" using LIDAR (shooting a pulsed laser outwards and measuring return times), not visible light, so the illumination should be irrelevant to the car's ability to see a pedestrian, and
- The camera the footage is taken from seems to have vastly less darkvision than the human eye. I haven't driven in many years, and never drove much at night, but unless I'm profoundly confused I could always see more than 2 dashed lines ahead of me on the road with my headlights on; the only circumstances where I'd expect my visibility to be as poor as is conveyed by that camera footage is in thick snow or fog.
Leaving hyperbole about Uber being murderers aside (because hyperbole is the worst thing in the world and everyone who engages in it deserves to be shot), this seems to me like it very much is Uber's fault, and that their car fucked up badly and killed someone in pretty easy-to-handle circumstances where any attentive human driver who hadn't been destroying his darkvision by staring at a bright phone screen in the car would've easily avoided the collision.
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@cabbage I don't think it was a phone, rather the dashboard. Maybe some additional instrumentation they required the poor sod to monitor.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
which
xhe probably shatDo keep up!
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Just as confirmation that I'm not insane about the light thing - notice that the ability of the camera to see in the dark is so bad that in the video you literally can't see the poles of the street lights, just the lights at the top of them. I've never witnessed that with my eyes in real life.
See also this alternative image of the same road from another car's less shit dashcam:
If the lighting as a human would perceive it was more like that, it's pretty hard to imagine not being able to see a crossing pedestrian until you were about to hit them, like the police-released video suggests happened.
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@cabbage Also, you haven't had deer or a fox jump at you. The fuckers do choose unlit parts of the road deliberately. You may have the best dark vision and still miss them.
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@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
it does seem a bit odd that both LIDAR and RADARs missed the pedestrian
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@luhmann oh fuck off :)
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@cabbage the yardstick isn't what magical tech Uber might have that makes it better than human driver. The question is if this was an entirely human driven car and they hit an unlit jaywalker at night going below speed limit and had this video to show, would they get convicted. And I think not.
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@bb36e said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
it does seem a bit odd that both LIDAR and RADARs missed the pedestrian
For extra shits and giggles, here is the press event when volvo showcased it's automatic breaking system that they had advertised in advance as stopping automatically for pedestrians, with mch chest beating over how good and safe Volvo cars are. the first clip in the video is the one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNi17YLnZpg
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if this was an entirely human driven car and they hit an unlit jaywalker at night going below speed limit and had this video to show, would they get convicted. And I think not.
And I think they would be convicted, if the prosecutor explained convincingly to the jury that actually, no, the slow-walking jaywalker who had already walked across a lane and a half before being hit was lit perfectly and could probably have been seen for like 10 seconds before the collision and the only reason that it looks like they weren't clearly visible in the video is that the exposure is terrible. This was a wide open road with plenty of time to react and, judging by the alternative photos that have posted, excellent lighting that clearly illuminates every inch of road; I don't buy for a moment that an ordinary human driver would have hit that pedestrian, and I think that we should expect drivers not to!
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the yardstick isn't what magical tech Uber might have that makes it better than human driver
Sure, but if the illumination is actually irrelevant to the car due to it using LIDAR (which I believe to be the case), then we can conclude that it would've done exactly the same thing if this had happened in broad daylight. That's relevant when figuring out whether the tech is safe enough to be on the roads.
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@cabbage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Just as confirmation that I'm not insane about the light thing - notice that the ability of the camera to see in the dark is so bad that in the video you literally can't see the poles of the street lights, just the lights at the top of them. I've never witnessed that with my eyes in real life.
See also this alternative image of the same road from another car's less shit dashcam:
If the lighting as a human would perceive it was more like that, it's pretty hard to imagine not being able to see a crossing pedestrian until you were about to hit them, like the police-released video suggests happened.
Well look at that. I mentioned on another chat that a poor quality dashcam could have been used, and it looks like it was. Pedestrian was still an idiot for crossing where they were, but I can definitely see manslaughter charges being brought against the driver for not paying attention in an experimental prototype where their entire job is to be ready to take over immediately in case of failure.
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@gąska said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
The worst thing you need to prepare for is ice in the winter, and an occasional møøse.
A møøse once bit my sister?
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@gąska said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
It's fairly easy to get if you want, but hardly anybody wants. There's really big social stigma on hard drugs, even among teenagers. Of course there are social groups that don't have much problem with that, just like they don't have problem with robberies, violent assault, thievery and recklessly driving their
BMWs and Audis[citation needed] Volkswagens.Last week I decided keep track of the make of cars every time I was tailgated. It happened 10 times in 5 days **. 5 times out of the 10, it was by a Volkswagen. The rest was by an amalgam of reasonably priced cars (Renault, Hyundai, Citroen, Ford), not by luxury sedans.
** Anecdotes are not evidence, past performance is no guarantee for the future
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@polygeekery said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@wft crash in to semis, crash in to fire trucks, run over pedestrians. Whatever floats your boat.
I just know I don't want a self-driving car that I cannot override and drive manually.
The way it's presented now, self-driving cars are to replace taxis. You don't expect to override a taxi driver from the backseat of his taxi?
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@bjolling said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
The way it's presented now, self-driving cars are to replace taxis. You don't expect to override a taxi driver from the backseat of his taxi?
Good point. I never considered that because I do not take taxis.
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@bjolling said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Last week I decided keep track of the make of cars every time I was tailgated. It happened 10 times in 5 days **. 5 times out of the 10, it was by a Volkswagen. The rest was by an amalgam of reasonably priced cars (Renault, Hyundai, Citroen, Ford), not by luxury sedans.
** Anecdotes are not evidence, past performance is no guarantee for the future
Beat-up 20 year old Volkswagen, beat-up 20 year old BMW, new shiny Volkswagen, new shiny BMW - it's the same breed of morons, just different moment of specimen life and/or financial success level*.
* talking about car owners in Poland, not every BMW owner in the world is a moron, probably
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@bb36e said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Does anyone have any evidence that these companies have tested their systems using simulations of cities and other traffic? E.g. building a few blocks of stuff on their own property and testing there.
Maybe this?
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@bjolling said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Maybe this?
I love that idea (though it's just one guy, not a major player). It has cops and drivers potentially disobeying the rules of the road, it has exhibits of road rage... it should actually join public sessions for maximum "chaotic situation" potential, learning what to do when faced with flying cars, kamikaze jumbo jets, and tanks rolling down the road.
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@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
But it may have been a case of "Two out of three systems says there is nothing there, one system reports something strange, so third system is probably mistaken, ignore and carry on."
I believe there was a Tom Cruise movie about this situation.
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@hungrier There was a Philip K. Dick story about that, too...
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@lolwhat Now you're just talking nonsense.
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In all seriousness, even if it does come out that Uber fucked up, they shouldn’t be forbidden from further R&D. Fine them, find the lady’s family, if there’s any, give them compensation. Make Uber have their programmers visit the lady’s grave and get off the high horses about how they’re gonna change the world and be on the top of it, and start feeling some responsibility. Don’t fire anyone who demonstrably changes their attitude, but let them feel the shame.
I bet it was bound to happen sooner or later, but you wouldn’t scream blue murder if it was google or apple.
Also, make them send two people for field testing, so that the bloke at the wheel minds the road and the bloke in the passenger seat minds the instruments.
These are things they can start doing no matter whether they actually fucked up or not. Until they are absofuckinglutely sure and a trusted 3rd party is sure the technology beats human drivers at safety, they should be paranoid as fuck. But don’t issue blanket bans on the whole shit, because with that attitude we’d never have high speed trains and airplanes.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Uber ... some responsibility
:smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: 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@lorne-kates true of any company.
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@wft You don't understand. Lorne really, really dislikes them.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
I bet it was bound to happen sooner or later, but you wouldn’t scream blue murder if it was google or apple.
It already has happened!!! It has happened to Tesla. Why is everyone saying that Uber was using self-driving in production when they weren't, and forgetting that Tesla actually is?
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@luhmann said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
You don't have lane control do you? If you need to change direction suddenly you do so. You will feel a tremble in the steering wheel for a second like you drive over an auditive lane marking.
That is super annoying. I turned that off also. If you did not signal before a lane change it would buzz the seat and push back on the steering wheel. Which is fine and all, but I tend to use common sense on whether or not I signal when changing lanes. If there is literally no one around me for several hundred yards in each direction then I do not worry about it.
buzz
Fuck off driver assists.