The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?
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I got inspired a bit about the list of shit software that cannot into Unicode file names and spaces in paths. It so happens that while I'm using Linux as my daily driver (for what I do it's superior to anything else, including macOS, and Windows is a joke not worth consideration), it's got a lot of hiccups. Granted, compared to what was there five years ago, I'm now having what can be called the first world problems, or pretty much niche, but dammit, sometimes I wonder if some developers are friends with their brains at all.
HiDPI support. Under Wayland, you're mostly OK — if Wayland works on your configuration at all. I have switchable Intel/AMD graphics, and Wayland is blacklisted in Fedora for such configurations (and pretty much for everything except Intel). I know life so I trust it was done for a reason. Even mixed-DPI configurations will work correctly (each half of a window drawn at the correct scale of display it happens to be on). Except for XWayland, which in my particular case drew all application at half the resolution, upscaled. With no obvious way to change it. This includes pretty all JetBrains stuff, Electron, all major browsers, and... GNOME Shell's own panel! How fucked must that be.
General Wayland stability. The major selling point of X.org stack is that your desktop environment, window manager, and applications are all separate. Wayland is oh so new and shiny, and someone made a brillant decision to combine the WM and DE into one. Under Xorg, when GNOME Shell crashes (which it does sporadically), it just respawns and sort of heals itself, a minor nuisance. Under Wayland which is the Future, when it dies, it takes all applications with it. Oops.
Also, VirtualBox cannot grab the keyboard under Wayland, so, basically, fuck it.
Keyboard. I happen to own one of those fancy "terminal" Model Ms with 122 keys. I made the left Fn key block look mostly like the Sun keyboard, with dedicated keys for Copy, Paste, Find, Open... and you know what? Only maybe half the software acknowledges those keys are a thing. X.org supported Sun's keyboards since forever. The worst offender is GNOME Shell. It doesn't know what F13-F24 keys are, Open key works but not Cut, Copy, and Paste.
At the same time I learned that while you can reprogram GTK+ much to your liking, a lot of software, including GNOME Shell (again!) doesn't realize you may want to map several shortcuts to a single action. See, I plug this big ass keyboard to a laptop. When it's not plugged in, I want the other shortcuts — the ones not using special keys — to keep working, dammit.
Turns out, Chrome won't let you remap the shortcuts either. And the funniest thing is that while keys like Cut and Paste work perfectly well inside the web pages, they don't work in the UI. And, yep, you have no way of changing that except for maybe poking in the source and recompiling. I can't possibly remember when it was I needed to compile stuff without being paid for it.
Dammit, I want my full HiDPI support and full customizability back!
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@wft said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
GNOME
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@boomzilla Everything else is worse
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@wft said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Dammit, I want my full HiDPI support and full customizability back!
Did you try KDE ?
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It's open source code your own fucking HDMI drivers and keyboard support.
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@timebandit last I tried it its scaling (Retina-like, you know) support was abysmal. And I tried it in late December.
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@wft What version of KDE was it ?
From what I read, you need pretty much latest KDE.
You should try KDE Neon : https://neon.kde.org/
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@wft said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
It so happens that while I'm using Linux as my daily driver (for what I do it's superior to anything else, including macOS, and Windows is a joke not worth consideration), it's got a lot of hiccups
Ditto here. it really sucks that everything is buggy. my keyboard under Linux (tried under Debian and Arch) appears to shit itself and fail to register keys/repeat keys infinitely every once in a while. I don't know how this is possible in 2018.
on the plus side, I have had 0 kernel panics over the last three weeks (vs one BSOD/week under win10).
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@boomzilla what do you use? I wanted something that had almost all basic desktop stuff installed out of the box, so I figured I'd go with the default/suggested DE for my distro (debian stable).
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@bb36e I'm on Debian stable too, but I selected "Alternative desktop environments" on install to have KDE.
You took the default one (GNOME) so you're screwed
But there is hope : https://wiki.debian.org/KDE#Installation
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@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
my keyboard under Linux (tried under Debian and Arch) appears to shit itself and fail to register keys/repeat keys infinitely every once in a while. I don't know how this is possible in 2018.
Change your keyboard, it's faulty
B.t.w.: look at dmesg, there's probably a hint there about your faulty keyboard.
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@timebandit said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Change your keyboard, it's faulty 🤷🏼♂
doesn't shit itself under Windows
look at dmesg, there's probably a hint there about your faulty keyboard.
No dice.
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@timebandit said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
KDE
I steered clear of it because last time I used it, it looked like ass:
but apparently 5.0 looks better. maybe i'll reinstall this weekend and try it
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@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@timebandit said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Change your keyboard, it's faulty 🤷🏼♂
doesn't shit itself under Windows
Really ?
@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
vs one BSOD/week under win10
Could be related.
I know Win10 is crap, but a BSOD a week is not normal.
Also, a cheap keyboard is $10, worth a try.
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@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
I steered clear of it because last time I used it, it looked like ass:
Looks like MacOS
Also, there is multiple themes for it, you can even make it look like Win10 if you want
but apparently 5.0 looks better. maybe i'll reinstall this weekend and try it
You don't have to re-install, you can have many DE on the same machine and select at login screen.
# sudo apt install aptitude tasksel # sudo aptitude install ~t^desktop$ ~t^kde-desktop$
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@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@boomzilla what do you use? I wanted something that had almost all basic desktop stuff installed out of the box, so I figured I'd go with the default/suggested DE for my distro (debian stable).
I use KDE. KDE 4 is good (I've never needed any sort of fancy DPI scaling). KDE 5 is still not ready for prime time. I don't know what Debian Stable is on.
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@bb36e I mean, I rather liked it when it looked like that, but it's been like 6 years so I wouldn't have figured it still looks like that. It's linux after all.
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@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
I steered clear of it because last time I used it, it looked like ass:
I can't find any ass there and I still like it better than KDE5, but I've always thought that Windows Aero looked like ass so what do I know? I don't care for those window decorations but you'd probably think that mine were worse. Plastik FTW!
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@magus There is hundreds of themes for KDE. You can still make it look like that, or you can make it look like Win10.
Then you can get more themes by clicking on this little button
Which will bring you this window
And all of it without ever using the CLI
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@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@wft said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
It so happens that while I'm using Linux as my daily driver (for what I do it's superior to anything else, including macOS, and Windows is a joke not worth consideration), it's got a lot of hiccups
Ditto here. it really sucks that everything is buggy. my keyboard under Linux (tried under Debian and Arch) appears to shit itself and fail to register keys/repeat keys infinitely every once in a while. I don't know how this is possible in 2018.
on the plus side, I have had 0 kernel panics over the last three weeks (vs one BSOD/week under win10).
And you're sure the BSOD is a Windows problem and not just the hardware? Admittedly, a lot depends on the driver makers which in your case might not do you much good, but if even Linux seems to freak out there might be something more going on...
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@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
No dice.
If it's a fancy keyboard and if you're under X, check with
xinput
.My ("gaming") mouse had a bunch of problems with the extra keys; turns out it registers itself multiple times as different devices (it shows up as like two keyboards and three mice or something). Under Windows it has a special driver that handles those, but under linux things get a bit confused when left click reports mouse button zero (or whatever left click is) and like mouse button 22 at the same time.
</wild ass guess>
Also ... it would seem like I'm going to stick with X for a while. This doesn't exactly make Wayland sound very promising. (Also, no native nvidia drivers => no dice.)
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@timebandit said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
I steered clear of it because last time I used it, it looked like ass:
Looks like MacOS
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@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@timebandit said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
KDE
I steered clear of it because last time I used it, it looked like ass:
THAT looks like ass? Like, seriously??
Have you seen the literally brown pile of Gnome that comes with Ubuntu or whatever?@boomzilla said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
but I've always thought that Windows Aero looked like ass so what do I know?
Plastik FTW!Funny, I love Aero on 7 (Win10 looks like Win3.1 with a black theme to me) but also use Plastik for my KDE.
Everybody can have their opinion, but liking Gnome is objectively wrong.
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@topspin said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
THAT looks like ass? Like, seriously??
My theory is that the grey reminds people of Win 3.1 or something.
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@topspin said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Have you seen the literally brown pile of Gnome that comes with Ubuntu or whatever?
Ubuntu user here. It's actually a purple pile of Gnome these days.
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@timebandit said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Then you can get more themes by clicking on this little button
I don't see a theme that looks like: https://www.pdp8.net/asr33/dms.jpg
:) :) :) :)
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@wft said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Under Xorg, when GNOME Shell crashes (which it does sporadically), it just respawns and sort of heals itself, a minor nuisance. Under Wayland which is the Future, when it dies, it takes all applications with it. Oops.
Why don't they just fix it so it doesn't crash?
@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Ditto here. it really sucks that everything is buggy. my keyboard under Linux (tried under Debian and Arch) appears to shit itself and fail to register keys/repeat keys infinitely every once in a while. I don't know how this is possible in 2018.
CADT
@bb36e said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
(vs one BSOD/week under win10).
BSODs are caused by faulty hardware. (Or drivers, which weird people on this forum insist to me don't count as hardware somehow even though their entire existence is to support a piece of hardware.) Fix your shit.
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@blakeyrat said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
BSODs are caused by faulty hardware. (Or drivers, which weird people on this forum insist to me don't count as hardware somehow even though their entire existence is to support a piece of hardware.)
WORDS HAVE MEANINGS!
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@blakeyrat said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Or drivers, which weird people on this forum insist to me don't count as hardware somehow even though their entire existence is to support a piece of hardware.
Yeah, weird people who can tell the difference between hardware and software. Fuckin' weirdos.
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@masonwheeler If I have a hose who's sole purpose is to plug into a specific vacuum cleaner, that hose ships with and is part of the vacuum cleaner.
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@blakeyrat Hardware... Software... IT"S ALL THE SAME THING
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@timebandit These days I kind of understand that point of view.
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From Wikipedia:
Computer hardware are the physical parts or components of a computer, such as the monitor, keyboard, computer data storage, graphic card, sound card and motherboard. By contrast, software is instructions that can be stored and ran by hardware.
Hardware is directed by the software to execute any command or instruction. A combination of hardware and software forms a usable computing system.
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@timebandit Yes, thank you. I understand the technical position. Speaking of a philosophical position.
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@timebandit said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
From Wikipedia:
Computer hardware are the physical parts or components of a computer, such as the monitor, keyboard, computer data storage, graphic card, sound card and motherboard. By contrast, software is instructions that can be stored and ran by hardware.
Hardware is directed by the software to execute any command or instruction. A combination of hardware and software forms a usable computing system.
Easier definitions:
Hardware: the part of a computer you can kick.
Software: the part of a computer you can only scream at
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@blakeyrat said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Why don't they just fix it so it doesn't crash?
Presumably it's easier to make it respawn on a crash than to fix all crashes current and future, and it doesn't prevent you from fixing the crashes at a later time anyway.
Just saying...
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@heterodox said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@timebandit Yes, thank you. I understand the technical position. Speaking of a philosophical position.
It's still inside the computer when I remove the device. It can be copied to other computers even without the presence of the device. I call software.
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@blakeyrat said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@masonwheeler If I have a hose who's sole purpose is to plug into a specific vacuum cleaner, that hose ships with and is part of the vacuum cleaner.
But...it's still a hose and not, say, an electric motor. Or any other thing that it isn't.
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@heterodox said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@timebandit Yes, thank you. I understand the technical position. Speaking of a philosophical position.
Better to philosophize that the system as a whole contains both hardware and software such that both are required to be useful.
@mzh said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Easier definitions:
Hardware: the part of a computer you can kick.
Software: the part of a computer you can only scream atIf we can touch a thought then we can touch a running process.
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@boomzilla said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
If we can touch a thought then we can touch a running process.
kill -9
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@timebandit I mean...I'm not saying we can.
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@zecc said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Presumably it's easier to make it respawn on a crash than to fix all crashes current and future, and it doesn't prevent you from fixing the crashes at a later time anyway.
Riiight, but with how long it's been around surely they've finished "fixing all the crashes all a later time" right? I mean Windows and OS X are rock-stable, and I think OS X is actually younger than Gnome. And everybody tells me how great open source development methodology is, right.
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@blakeyrat said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@zecc said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Presumably it's easier to make it respawn on a crash than to fix all crashes current and future, and it doesn't prevent you from fixing the crashes at a later time anyway.
Riiight, but with how long it's been around surely they've finished "fixing all the crashes all a later time" right? I mean Windows and OS X are rock-stable, and I think OS X is actually younger than Gnome. And everybody tells me how great open source development methodology is, right.
Is the firewall still an integral part of font management?
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@blakeyrat said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
And everybody tells me how great open source development methodology is, right.
Not I.
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@boomzilla said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@blakeyrat said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@zecc said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Presumably it's easier to make it respawn on a crash than to fix all crashes current and future, and it doesn't prevent you from fixing the crashes at a later time anyway.
Riiight, but with how long it's been around surely they've finished "fixing all the crashes all a later time" right? I mean Windows and OS X are rock-stable, and I think OS X is actually younger than Gnome. And everybody tells me how great open source development methodology is, right.
Is the firewall still an integral part of font management?
Is X still shit?
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@pie_flavor said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Is X still shit?
Oh, yeah, X is the shit!
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@boomzilla said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
@pie_flavor said in The 2018 is the year of Linux on a laptop, right?:
Is X still shit?
Oh, yeah, X is the shit!
If only it were the shit. But it is only a shit. There are lots more things that are shit on Linux.