Can Firefox make a comeback?
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@tsaukpaetra said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Yeah, recently YouTube site code tends to try avoiding starting playback until the
windowtab is focused.It does seem like it may be better than it used to be. YouTubeCentre used to do a pretty good job of keeping videos from playing until you clicked on them (actually, they played for something like 0.5s before it could stop them), but when opening many tabs at once in either Chrome or Firefox, the browser would become so unresponsive that YTC wouldn't get the opportunity to run so it could do its job. (And now, unfortunately, it's almost completely broken. YT's frequent API changes meant YTC needed frequent maintenance, but the author developed a Real Life, and just gave up on YTC.) It was fun hunting for which 4 or 5 YT tabs, of all the tabs that were trying to load, were making noise simultaneously.
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@hardwaregeek said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@tsaukpaetra said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Yeah, recently YouTube site code tends to try avoiding starting playback until the
windowtab is focused.It does seem like it may be better than it used to be. ...
This is one place where Firefox is nicer than the Chromish browsers: about:config, media.autoplay.enabled = false. (I think this is what is preventing YouTube from autoplaying on my machine, anyway.)
The Chromish equivalent (I believe) is "chrome://flags/#autoplay-policy = Document user activation is required". However, Google is busy trying to convince everyone that it's better to always play videos without sound and let them guess whether you want to hear them. Yuck.
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@parody No. Do NOT autoplay any media, with or without sound. Ever. Period.
In fact, don't even start buffering the video until I've indicated that I want to watch it. Because, unless it's YouTube, or Vimeo, or some such that I've gone to specifically to watch a video, >90% of the time, I don't want to watch it. Random news site with video — no, I want to read the article, not watch your video. Video ad — hell, no; there's a reason I have an ad-blocker on my own machines.
Maybe it's just me, but sometimes I can be OCD about not wasting bandwidth downloading a video stream I don't want to watch, to the point of keeping the dev tools open so that I can delete the video from the DOM before it starts streaming.
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@hardwaregeek said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@parody No. Do NOT autoplay any media, with or without sound. Ever. Period.
I'm with you. Now just convince Google it's better to let us decide if/when to play their ads. :(
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@el_heffe said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
I rarely open more than 10 tabs at once and have 32GB of RAM, so I really don't care about memory usage. There are other more important things that are wrong with Firefox. Speed and memory usage are irrelevant if features suck or are nonexistent.
Says the power user, with 32GB of RAM. But we're not talking about it gaining users, we're talking about it making a complete comeback. There are plenty of people who still have four or even two gigabytes of RAM, or who don't understand you're supposed to close tabs. To gain real traction, you have to appeal to the simple users as well as the power users, like Chrome did.
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@timebandit said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@potatoengineer said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Chrome whines every time you try to open 20 tabs at the same time
I always have more than 20 tabs open.
I currently have 54 tabs open.
Chrome never whines
When I started developing NodeBB, my daily driver was a laptop with 2gb RAM, try opening your 50 tabs on it, bub.
Now, doesn't that look nice? A little housekeeping makes me feel special
I've also switched back to Firefox on my main machine. I'm liking the switch. Some stray thoughts:
- I'm annoyed that shift-mousewheel invokes page history. I'm used to it invoking horizontal scrolling
- I forgot how much I missed the fact that the first click into the url bar places the cursor into position, instead of highlighting the entire url
- Pocket is weird.
- Most of my add-ons are there, but Lastpass wasn't when I last checked. Using Bitwarden now, much nicer.
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@julianlam said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
I forgot how much I missed the fact that the first click into the url bar places the cursor into position, instead of highlighting the entire url
This is only on Linux, on Windows it highlights the entire text.
It's probably a bug, I wouldn't get my hopes up.
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@cartman82 to my knowledge it's always been this behaviour by default, I really don't know why but I like it.
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@julianlam said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@cartman82 to my knowledge it's always been this behaviour by default, I really don't know why but I like it.
Would they really split linux and windows versions in such way? Maybe there was so much neckbeard whining they had to, but I doubt it.
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@julianlam said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
I forgot how much I missed the fact that the first click into the url bar places the cursor into position, instead of highlighting the entire url
Given the difference in the amount of times I click the URL bar to either copy and paste the address or replace it entirely (a lot) vs wanting to modify what's already there (not much), that behaviour would annoy me.
Either way, it's better than Edge, which shifts all the text around once you click into it because it hides the HTTP:// part when not focused. That means that for the case when you want to select a part of the URL or have your cursor in a particular position you need to click, rescan, move the mouse and click/double click/click-and-drag again
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@pie_flavor said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Says the power user, with 32GB of RAM. But we're not talking about it gaining users, we're talking about it making a complete comeback.
What? Making a comeback and gaining users are the same thing. If Firefox continues at it's current ~7% market share, that's not a comeback.
There are plenty of people who still have four or even two gigabytes of RAM
Yes, but, is there really any performance difference between Firefox and Chrome on an old shitty computer with very little RAM? The performance of every program sucks, so are you even going to notice that a page loads one second faster. Or even care?
or who don't understand you're supposed to close tabs.
The person with an old shitty computer with only 2GB of RAM probably never opens more than one tab, unless they click on a link and the browser opens it in a new tab for them. I know a lot of people who do that (and most of them aren't even using an old shitty computer).
To gain real traction, you have to appeal to the simple users as well as the power users, like Chrome did.
I've never understood how Chrome could be appealing to "power users". It's missing a lot of features and is very stripped down compared to Firefox.
I understand the appeal to the "simple users" -- they don't know or care. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, performance, features, and Chrome vs Firefox are all irrelevant to most people. It's all the same to them -- it's simply "that thing I click on to get to Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/Whatever". As a result, Google has been able to run a very successful marketing campaign for Chrome.
Can Firefox make a big comeback? Sadly, I doubt it. Google has pretty much destroyed the web browser. Chrome now IS the web browser in the minds of many, many people, just like Internet Explorer was, many years ago.
But, as long as Mozilla can still get millions of dollars a year from someone, we'll always have an alternative to Chrome, and FF 57 seems a little less retarded than previous versions, and seems like they're slowly moving in the right direction. So, there's that.
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@parody well now that you've got my attention, were you going to say something in reply to my post?
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@el_heffe said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Yes, but, is there really any performance difference between Firefox and Chrome on an old shitty computer with very little RAM? The performance of every program sucks, so are you even going to notice that a page loads one second faster. Or even care?
I can speak to the fact that if you try to open too many tabs on Chrome on a computer with 2GB of RAM, the machine locks up hard (no mouse movement).
If you're quick enough, you can Ctrl-Alt-F1 to get to a terminal and quickly kill off Chrome, but that gets old fast :(
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@julianlam said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
When I started developing NodeBB, my daily driver was a laptop with 2gb RAM
And once you opened a page with in it, watching that machine crawl to a halt, it convinced you to write a replacement ?
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@timebandit I was going to say he accidentally opened 20 pages with in it, but I think in that case the server would probably be stressed more than his desktop would. The desktop would be twiddling its thumbs waiting for the server to get its shit together and catch up...
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@el_heffe said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
it's simply "that thing I click on to get to Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/Whatever".
Where is Grumpy Cat???
I'd like to link the thread about Mozilla's most sophisticated users, but even Google search isn't finding it for me.
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@anotherusername said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
The desktop would be twiddling its thumbs waiting for the server to
get its shit together and catch upcrash and burn...FTFY
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So... multiple people in here have alluded to having "too many" tabs open on Chrome.
I call bullshit on that. Chrome (and it's derivatives) have the super dumb idea of shrinking the size of the tab depending on how many tabs you have open. Meaning either you guys are running 8k resolutions on your machines or you are multiplying the actual number by like 10.I use my Opera (the Chrome version) for TDWTF and have ~99 other tabs open. I can barely register the seperate tabs which forces me to clean up every once in a while.
Opera (and I think Chrome, too) also refuses to use lazyloading since like 3 versions ago which is super annoying.I swtiched mainly because of this topic. I cannot say I see noticable differences in speed and the new design is acceptable after a bit of fiddeling. I dunno who thought it was a good idea to put the pocket-icon into the url-field but at least you can drag it out.
Dev tools still take ~4 seconds to open on a website like youtube....
The tab sizes Firefox uses in general is a bit smaller than usual. Allowing me 5 additional tabs in my bar (without shriking into obscurity like in chrome).All in all, I didn't notice the change much. Besides -as mentioned before - fiddeling with the look for 4 seconds as is custom on every new FF installation.
Side note: I started using Opera as a second browser when I overloaded my firefox with too many sites open at once... now Opera and Firefox both have ~100 tabs... Oh well, if one starts lagging, I usually just switch to the other temporarily.
Filed Under: I am not a loyal browser defender
Addendum: I really like the feature Firefox added like 2 versions ago, where opening a video in a new tab will not autoplay it until you click the tab. It allows me to open all the youtube videos I wanna watch in one go!
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@kuro said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
So... multiple people in here have alluded to having "too many" tabs open on Chrome.
I call bullshit on that. Chrome (and it's derivatives) have the super dumb idea of shrinking the size of the tab depending on how many tabs you have open. Meaning either you guys are running 8k resolutions on your machines or you are multiplying the actual number by like 10.Nobody said all these tabs are in the same window
Hint: I have 5 Chrome windows currently
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@timebandit
Fair point.
I was really just ranting about the tab shriking in general!Also, still calling because that's what you do on this forum!
Filed Under: I mean, I do the same thing ... I just use two browsers
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@el_heffe said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
[...] and memory usage are irrelevant
Memory usage is always irrelevant until you run out of physical memory. Then it's extremely relevant.
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@ben_lubar said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@el_heffe said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
[...] and memory usage are irrelevant
Memory usage is always irrelevant until you run out of physical memory. Then it's extremely relevant.
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@julianlam said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Bitwarden
Looks interesting, but then I noticed their icon is literally . They couldn't come up with something original?
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@coderpatsy Perhaps the project author would rather spend his time writing code than picking out logos.
All the best developers have terrible design skills, right?
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@julianlam said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
All the best developers have terrible design skills, right?
I resemble that remark.
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@dcon said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@julianlam said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
All the best developers have terrible design skills, right?
I resemble that remark.
The icon for my software is a single sock...... so......... i think i resemble it as well.
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This thread gave me a flashback of when i used to use firefox :D
https://addons.cdn.mozilla.net/user-media/previews/full/26/26028.png?modified=1331218902
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@accalia When we started writing NodeBB, I took it upon myself to come up with a logo.
Node.js' logo was a hex with "js" in it, so I stole that idea and put a speech bubble inside it. That was our original logo, and it lasted far longer than I expected it to
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This post is deleted!
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@magus I used Noia too.
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@zecc It's so ugly in retrospect :D
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@anotherusername said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@parody well now that you've got my attention, were you going to say something in reply to my post?
Obviously I didn't intend it (given to whom I was quoting and responding) but I can throw in this, I suppose:
I installed Tampermonkey instead of Greasemonkey in FF 57 and its options include dumping your scripts to various file sharing services. I didn't try it out to see if it's automatic after that, but you could give it a whirl.
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Why squared tabs? That's why I couldn't use edge for more than a few seconds. I hate those.
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@slapout1 said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Why squared tabs? That's why I couldn't use edge for more than a few seconds. I hate those.
Because Windows 10, obviously.
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@kuro said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
So... multiple people in here have alluded to having "too many" tabs open on Chrome.
I call bullshit on that. Chrome (and it's derivatives) have the super dumb idea of shrinking the size of the tab depending on how many tabs you have open. Meaning either you guys are running 8k resolutions on your machines or you are multiplying the actual number by like 10.
I use my Opera (the Chrome version) for TDWTF and have ~99 other tabs open. I can barely register the seperate tabs which forces me to clean up every once in a while.
Opera (and I think Chrome, too) also refuses to use lazyloading since like 3 versions ago which is super annoying.... or you can have multiple windows.
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@timebandit said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Hint: I have 5 Chrome windows currently
Not using a tab tree/vertical tab list is
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@anotherusername said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@timebandit I was going to say he accidentally opened 20 pages with in it, but I think in that case the server would probably be stressed more than his desktop would. The desktop would be twiddling its thumbs waiting for the server to get its shit together and catch up...
Discourse has no memory problems in tabs, nor does it take nearly as long as NodeBB does to put its pages together. Just sayin'.
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@kuro said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Addendum: I really like the feature Firefox added like 2 versions ago, where opening a video in a new tab will not autoplay it until you click the tab. It allows me to open all the youtube videos I wanna watch in one go!
Chrome does that too.
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@pie_flavor said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Discourse has no memory problems in tabs, nor does it take nearly as long as NodeBB does to put its pages together. Just sayin'.
You experience with Discourse is different from everyone else on this forum
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@pie_flavor said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Discourse has no memory problems in tabs, nor does it take nearly as long as NodeBB does to put its pages together.
I'm surprised to hear this actually... you should give our latest version a try. After the first load, subsequent loads are measured in the tens of ms (probably exaggerating a bit here, but it's really short).
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@pie_flavor said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Discourse has no memory problems in tabs,
uhh....
okay..........
just out of curiosity.,.... when was the last time you ran MEMTEST86+ on your RAM? i think you might have some parity errors there....
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@julianlam said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@pie_flavor said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Discourse has no memory problems in tabs, nor does it take nearly as long as NodeBB does to put its pages together.
I'm surprised to hear this actually... you should give our latest version a try. After the first load, subsequent loads are measured in the tens of ms (probably exaggerating a bit here, but it's really short).
Well, WTDWTF must not be running the latest version then.
Edit: Oh, first load. Well, most of the time that's the only load, and Discourse is this fast on all loads.
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@pie_flavor said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
@kuro said in Can Firefox make a comeback?:
Addendum: I really like the feature Firefox added like 2 versions ago, where opening a video in a new tab will not autoplay it until you click the tab. It allows me to open all the youtube videos I wanna watch in one go!
Chrome does that too.
I'm pretty sure it's a feature of YouTube and not any particular browsers.
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@pie_flavor I don't dispute that Discourse has the same ... performance characteristics, let's say... on subsequent loads as it does on the first, but you're delusional if you think the word "fast" describes it.
That said, I still wonder if truncating the
post_actions
table would have made things bearable...
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@pie_flavor No, you misunderstood what I meant with "first load", I apologise. I mean first load by anyone after NodeBB is started from the command line. Once the template is JIT compiled, it never has to be, again.
So we managed to reduce cold load times to almost the same as a page transition.
Also no, I don't believe you guys are running latest. A small minority trolled @ben_lubar for running bleeding edge code 🚎
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@julianlam That reminds me. Is version 1.5.3-280-g158e47e-dirty currently supported?