Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN
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I think open source development is a good thing. It's sort-of like the communal R&D lab of software. The problem, as I see it, is two-fold:
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Back in "the day," that is to say, the likes of Linux kernel development, I think people who were on an average project were simply more dedicated. At least, the repo managers were. Hell, it took a lot of dedication just to use the internet as it existed at that time, let alone participate in such a project. I do think that you can make a good open source project with nothing but an extremely dedicated repo manager -- sort of like the "monkeys writing Shakespeare" approach, but you have Shakespeare himself in the other room piecing the drivel together into an entertaining play. However, in this situation, the vast majority of "contributors" are actually not contributors at all because their awful code gets rejected. I do think that there's reason to believe with the advent of the mainstream internet and online personas, that many people are far too egotistical when online, and rejections are causing too many feelings to be hurt across many communities, which is slowly having an impact on the open source community as a whole. The only egotistical jerk should be the person gatekeeping the repo.
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I do think that to some extent, Microsoft is simply wrong to take this approach to their own product. As I said, open source is like the R&D lab of development, with actual sustainable product coming straight out of the open source community only very occasionally. Too many people get the wrong idea when Microsoft releases a new library because they expect good product out of Microsoft. That's kind of a poor way to phrase it, because I don't think the people who attempted to adopt Microsoft's code early were really at fault. Can you really be at fault when the product is still objectively shit and unfinished, regardless of how many stupid warning stickers you put on it? I personally don't think so. It's very nearly the same problem plaguing the games industry. Games which might have had smash sales at launch get a slow trickle of sales because their "early access" program was a rollercoaster of terrible patches. Sometimes games that were good or interesting in alpha/beta get ruined by community suggestions taken without serious consideration by the developers, especially when the people offering suggestions paid a lot of money before the game was released.
I think Microsoft would do themselves a favor if they just released these sorts of nightly-build-quality libraries under a new label. Maybe MS Labs or something? Anything to let you know it's obviously different.
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@blakeyrat It hasn't been released yet. These people are using pre-RC preview versions.
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@blakeyrat .NET Core is to sell Azure to hipster Javascript devs, not the enterprise. It seems like Microsoft doesn't care about current ASP.NET users.
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@magnusmaster said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
It seems like Microsoft doesn't care about current ASP.NET users.
They're still supporting it across the board, have just released an update for the .NET Framework it's built on, and are in the process of overhauling the documentation. Clearly the actions of a company that doesn't give a shit.</sarcasm>
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@CrazyEyes No.
If someone says we are going to use "semver". Make semver work.
If you are microsoft and most of your customers use your framework. Make open source work for them. That means no depreciating something after a year.
It simply isn't anymore a few dudes using CVS in their basement. People are employed to work on it and they don't do the job correctly.
I would rather they made me pay for it than give it away for nothing with it half working.
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@cheong said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@cartman82 This is what happens when you adopt open source, everything becomes shit.
The bigger mystery is why people think open source development practices are a desirable thing to have in the first place. It's always been shit, this isn't new or exclusive to Microsoft open source.
Actually the problem is not open source, but trying to do cross-platform without limiting everything to HCF of what can be done on these platforms. So you now need to have some way to signal "you can't do something in this target because one of the supported platform(s) of that target don't support doing that".
Now the problem is just that, like blood test that type O can donate to type AB person, but type AB cannot donate to type O person, projects targeting .NET framework should be able to use .NET standard or Core without problem. Now that's something that should be considered fixing for the package manager.
Now I think it again, given .NET Core will be released in quicker iteration than .NET standard/.NET framework versions, this will be difficult.
Consider if .NET Core 2.0 and 2.5 both are based on .NET v4.7, but some feature are incompatible (I don't have idea on what could possibly be, maybe I'll use some old example to illustrate this, like removal of IPAddress.Address that has been marked as obsolete for a long time - note that this is not part of .NET Core at all and I'm just using it as an example). Now two libraries that using .NET Core 2.0 and 2.5 are added to a .NET v4.7 project because after all, they're marked compatible. What will happen.
Since both versions of .NET Core libraries are running under v4.X they won't be running side-by-side. That means if the .NET Core 2.5 is loaded first, the library using .NET Core 2.0 with that removed IPAddress.Address will throw an exception that it cannot find the property. But if you contact the owner of the library using .NET Core 2.0, they'll tell you the property exists on documentation so should not be a problem. That will create support nightmare of mysterious fails.
The problem of removal of field can be easily avoided by only removing them in major version changes, but other kind of changes like the supported SSL versions may not be able to wait this way.
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Their website is pretty straightforward ( https://www.asp.net/learn )
ASP.NET
ASP.NET is a mature web platform that provides all the services that you require to build enterprise-class server-based web applications using .NET on Windows.ASP.NET Core
ASP.NET Core is a new open-source and cross-platform .NET framework for building modern cloud-based web applications on Windows, Mac, or Linux.
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@wharrgarbl I think the problem was that you could use ASP.NET Core 1.x and target .NET Framework. To me that was always counter-intuitive, but w/e.
ASP.NET Core 2.0 won't give you that option. It only targets .NET Core.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
The open source development methodology is shit.
There is no such thing as “open source development methodology”. Open source is developed with wide variety of methodologies, some of which work and some of which suck big time. Which is similar to commercial software anyway—some of those methodologies suck just as big time.
So which methodology do you actually have in mind?
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
It's not my fault you use the same term "open source" to refer to about 47 different things.
“Open source” means that the source is available for anybody to rebuild, use, modify and redistribute for free. That and nothing else. If you mean something else, it is your fault you are not understood.
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@Bulb said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
So which methodology do you actually have in mind?
What is the methodology used by nodebb and the "JavaScript community"?
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@Bulb said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
If you mean something else, it is your fault you are not understood.
YMBNH
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@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@Bulb said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
So which methodology do you actually have in mind?
What is the methodology used by nodebb and the "JavaScript community"?
CADT?
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@Arantor and wtf is cadt?
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@wharrgarbl version 0.8
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@Jaloopa WHARRGARBL!
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@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@Arantor and wtf is cadt?
Cascade of Attention-Deficit-
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@Arantor
Because the second and third don't make much sense in this context
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@Arantor or lmgtfy is annoying, condescending and it didn't help
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@wharrgarbl then https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html and be glad I'm not a mod.
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@Arantor Why should I be glad you're not a mod? Your threat makes me think you would be a bad mod, so it's a self-evidencing affirmation or something?
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@wharrgarbl because you made me do some work and the mods don't do work.
At least try to keep up with the forum memes.
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@Arantor said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
At least try to keep up with the forum memes
He deleted them all
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@Arantor Ok. I don't like the name CADT, it's an insult for people with ADD. There must be another name we can call it.
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@Arantor said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@wharrgarbl because you made me do some work and the mods don't do work.
IOW: you wouldn't be a good mod
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@TimeBandit I have no disagreement with this assessment.
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@wharrgarbl something something white knight.
But it does describe the behaviour surprisingly well.
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@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
it's an insult for people with ADD
Fortunately they'll get over it after 5 minutes.
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This post is deleted!
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@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@Arantor Ok. I don't like the name CADT, it's an insult for people with ADD. There must be another name we can call it.
What's insulting about it?
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@Arantor said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@wharrgarbl then https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html and be glad I'm not a mod.
Note that JWZ was there when the single worst strategic mistake that any software company can make¹ was made (and apparently argued against it; yep, it is about rewriting from scratch).
¹ Funny, that article has “Part Ⅰ” in its title, but there does not seem to be any later part.
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@Zecc said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
it's an insult for people with ADD
Fortunately they'll get over it after 5
minutesseconds.FTFM
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@Arantor Ok. I don't like the name CADT, it's an insult for people with ADD. There must be another name we can call it.
What's insulting about it?
It's a pejorative form of calling shitty development that is unrelated to ADD, that is a sickness.
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@wharrgarbl it's also ageist. No reason shitty, attention deficit code has to be produced by teenagers
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@Jaloopa said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@wharrgarbl it's also ageist. No reason shitty, attention deficit code has to be produced by teenagers
Also an insult to CSS not everything cascading is shitty.
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@Karla You seriously want to go there?
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@Karla said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@Jaloopa said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@wharrgarbl it's also ageist. No reason shitty, attention deficit code has to be produced by teenagers
Also an insult to CSS not everything cascading is shitty.
But CSS is
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@masonwheeler said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
seriously
I wasn't serious about anything.
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@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@Karla said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@Jaloopa said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@wharrgarbl it's also ageist. No reason shitty, attention deficit code has to be produced by teenagers
Also an insult to CSS not everything cascading is shitty.
But CSS is
Meh.
ETA: I have no dog in this fight. I'm more of a backend girl.
INB$:
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Anyway, the point is that the process of ignoring bug reports is unique to open source.
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@Greybeard said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
Anyway, the point is that the process of ignoring bug reports is unique to open source.
No it's not. :)
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@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@Arantor Ok. I don't like the name CADT, it's an insult for people with ADD. There must be another name we can call it.
What's insulting about it?
It's a pejorative form of calling shitty development that is unrelated to ADD, that is a sickness.
Bullshit. It's saying that people get bored with maintaining old stuff and want to have fun writing new stuff. It's analogous to ADD. It's a sickness. Something that's bad. If you are deliberately doing something analogous to a sickness it seems appropriate to be pejorative about it.
So...what's insulting? You stated the obvious, but not why it's insulting. How about a different question: Who is being insulted by it?
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
Who is being insulted by it?
People with ADD that doesn't ignore bug reports.
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@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
Who is being insulted by it?
People with ADD that doesn't ignore bug reports.
Have you surveyed all of them? Or are you just going by a sample size of one?
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@wharrgarbl if you were insulted by it, that's one thing. But white-knighting in case people are offended is somewhat different.
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What does it mean if you leave a website community because everyone there thinks you're an arsehole, then when you return you're still a raging arsehole?
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@wharrgarbl said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
Who is being insulted by it?
People with ADD that doesn't ignore bug reports.
TDEMSYR
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@Arantor said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
@wharrgarbl if you were insulted by it, that's one thing. But white-knighting in case people are offended is somewhat different.
Offended would be an overstatement, I just said I don't like it.
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@Bulb said in Microsoft fucks their developers in the ass... AGAIN:
There is no such thing as “open source development methodology”.
I'm talking about those meme-y pieces of shit like:
- Release early, release often
(Aka release broken shit so your users will hate you and never use your product again.)
- Do one thing and do it well
(No actual real life successful software has ever been made this way, ever. In the history of ever. What is the "one thing" Microsoft Excel does? How do you explain its success? How do you explain how it became far MORE successful when it added features that were useless for financial spreadsheets, but very useful for people making lists? Like Mail Merge. Remember what a horrible failure Napster was because it both downloaded files and played MP3s? It did TWO THINGS!)
- All eyes make bugs shallow
(I think this has been thoroughly disproven in the last few years. Just because someone is capable of looking at the code and verifying its correctness doesn't mean anybody actually will. They had to hire developers to fix OpenSSL, volunteers didn't do jack.)
There's no memes, but a few other behaviors common to open source projects:
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Ignore bug reports from users (while simultaneously telling non-technical users that their best way to contribute is to file bug reports).
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Refuse contributions from anybody who can't work Git, including usability experts, graphic designers, etc. Generally treat them like dirt so that all leave and do something more fun than interacting with the open source community, like for example pulling tree trunks with their teeth.
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Do all your communication on obsolete 1970s mediums, like email or IRC, despite the fact that far superior alternatives have existed for years.
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Have zero respect for backwards compatibility.
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Have zero respect for software accessibility. (You're blind? Fuck you, you can't use my beautiful open source program! Yes I would have gotten text-to-speech for free if I'd just used the OS' native controls instead of that GTK+ monstrosity, but fuck you!)
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Have zero respect for the user in general. If a person can't use Git, they're human garbage good only for jeering at.
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Write software by just plugging together 40,000 other pieces of buggy open source software instead of writing new code, even if writing the new code would be significantly quicker and easier than managing your new dependency. (Given: mostly a JavaScript thing.)
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(Apparently) do a somehow successful campaign to promote these bullet points to companies like Microsoft that previously had actually-healthy development practices and built reliable software.
I'm sorry that I'm not using your approved term to describe all this. Let me know what term you'd prefer.
I was going to respond to the rest of your post, but while trying to use my scroll wheel to read it this lovely open source forum software, which exemplifies the rules listed above, decided to scroll all the way to the footer of the page instead.
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@wharrgarbl no, you said 'it's an insult for people with ADD'. If you were insulted by it, that'd be one thing, but claiming that it might insult others is a form of white-knighting and makes presumptions about what might or might not offend other people and is fucking annoying.