Hacking the Deere
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"You want to replace a transmission and you take it to an independent mechanic—he can put in the new transmission but the tractor can't drive out of the shop. Deere charges $230, plus $130 an hour for a technician to drive out and plug a connector into their USB port to authorize the part."
"What you've got is technicians running around here with cracked Ukrainian John Deere software that they bought off the black market," he added.
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Oh Deere...
:micdrop:
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EU law
Manufacturers shall provide unrestricted and standardised access to vehicle OBD information, diagnostic and other equipment, tools including any relevant software and vehicle repair and maintenance information to independent operators.
And we get to know whether ginger beer is really ginger and/or beer.
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In my grandparents' town everyone has those: (URSUS C-330)
All the cables are accessible from outside.
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@coldandtired said in Hacking the Deere:
And we get to know whether ginger beer is really ginger
and/or beer."Ginger beer" has no fixed definition in the EU AFAIK.
But we do know which kind of seafood we're buying in the grocery store.
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At the risk of sounding naive... why not buy some other brand?
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@anonymous234 because they didn't realize the problem until their transmission broke?
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@asdf said in Hacking the Deere:
"Ginger beer" has no fixed definition in the EU AFAIK.
I meant more that the EU forbids the whole asterisk with tiny writing explaining that the product contains no trace of the stuff written in big letters.
Food information shall not be misleading, particularly:
(a)
as to the characteristics of the food and, in particular, as to its nature, identity, properties, composition, quantity, durability, country of origin or place of provenance, method of manufacture or production;
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@coldandtired
The John Deere solution meets that requirement. The independent operator has access to the OBD information, diagnostic tools & equipment.The tractor just won't drive afterwards until a certified tech comes and reviews the work.
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@izzion
In case you weren't trolling: You can't easily circumvent EU regulations like that. If you want the judge to have a good laugh, you can certainly try, but I wouldn't recommend it.
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@asdf
They aren't circumventing it, they're following it to the letter.Access to OBD information
Access to diagnostic equipment
Access to other equipment and tools
Access to relevant software
Access to vehicle repair and maintenance information Ability to authorize new transmission to work with tractor
E_NOT_REQUIRED_BY_LAW
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@izzion
You missed the "any relevant software" part. Any sane judge would interpret this phrase as "any software relevant for a successful repair".
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@asdf
Obviously no sane judge has interpreted it that way yet, or Deere wouldn't still be making tractors that way. I would expect it isn't worth their time to have two different production process for American and European markets, so if it was actually being enforced / interpreted that the firmware lockout was contrary to EU law, Deere would no longer be producing new tractors with it.
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@izzion said in Hacking the Deere:
I would expect it isn't worth their time to have two different production process for American and European markets
Putting a different firmware for different market is an easy solution.
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@izzion
Maybe there just hasn't been a lawsuit yet? Or the law only applies to cars, not special-purpose vehicles? (After all, only an excerpt was posted.) Who knows.Also, note that the article in the OP only claimed that farmers and repair shops in the US were denied the software. It might very well be that Deere provides the software to European repair shops upon request, but not to US ones (since there's no law).
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@asdf said in Hacking the Deere:
But we do know which kind of seafood we're buying in the grocery store.
I always know that. The answer is, "None."
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@anonymous234 said in Hacking the Deere:
At the risk of sounding naive... why not buy some other brand?
I mean...that's going to start happening a lot, I think, but it's a popular brand that had built up a lot of trust.
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This shit by John Deere doesn't surprise me in the least. When I was working for an EDI provider, my colleague was pulling his hair out over the shit he had to go through when talking to them. Basically it went like this:
John Deere (JD): "Ok, EXTERNAL_SUPPLIER_XYZ (XYZ), from now on you have to deliver your delivery statements, invoices and everything through EDIFACT. Otherwise you'll have to pay a fine of 2% per old-style paper statement."
XYZ to us: "Okay, our ERP currently can't talk to their system. You promised a solution, can you make our ERP talk to their ERP through EDIFACT?"
Colleague: "Yeah, should be no problem as soon as we get the specifications!"
XYZ: "Great! Do that then!"
Colleague to JD: "Hey, you told your external supplier that you want EDI only. We're the guys they contracted to establish the connection. Can you give us some specifications on what you want?"
JD: "Yeah, no. That's secret!"
Colleague:
Colleague: "No, seriously. If you want your supplier to talk to you using EDI then you need to tell us how to talk to you..."
JD: Hangs upIf I remember correctly it took us about two months to finally reach someone who comprehended that handing out the EDI specifications does not reveal any business secrets...
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@Rhywden said in Hacking the Deere:
If I remember correctly it took us about two months to finally reach someone who comprehended that handing out the EDI specifications does not reveal any business secrets...
It's not about revealing secrets, it's about losing that sweet 2% fine
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@boomzilla said in Hacking the Deere:
@asdf said in Hacking the Deere:
But we do know which kind of seafood we're buying in the grocery store.
I always know that. The answer is, "None."
You hate seafood? No wonder I don't get along with you.
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@fbmac It's a classic "lack of information" problem... thing is advertised as selling for $x, but total cost of ownership turns out to be $2x.
But you can't just fix this with a simple law, because estimating those costs is hard.
An unbiased consumer organization could easily have reviewed such products and warned those farmers about the hidden costs.
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@anonymous234 Maybe people would still chose them, but hack it to save some $$
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@Rhywden This is very common in regulations. "All devices sold must follow these rules. Rules are sold for 500€ and require signing a confidentiality agreement"
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@anonymous234 said in Hacking the Deere:
@Rhywden This is very common in regulations. "All devices sold must follow these rules. Rules are sold for 500€ and require signing a confidentiality agreement"
Yeah, well, for EDI this is absolute nonsense. Because the specifications only denote the type and values of data they want to receive, e.g. "A count must always be a multiple of 100", "The unit for mass shall always be kilogram" or "The order of data fields is thus:..."
Also, this is neither a standard nor a regulation. Every company has their own formats.
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@Fox said in Hacking the Deere:
You hate seafood? No wonder I don't get along with you.
You're really on a roll here...
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@Fox said in Hacking the Deere:
@boomzilla said in Hacking the Deere:
@asdf said in Hacking the Deere:
But we do know which kind of seafood we're buying in the grocery store.
I always know that. The answer is, "None."
You hate seafood? No wonder I don't get along with you.
yeah. seafood ain't food. it's food poisoning in waiting.
especially when you buy from a supermarket. They get the crap stuff, the good stuff is direct from the suppliers who sell it fresh off the boat. That stuff is still food poisoning waiting to happen, but it's fresher so the odds are closer to being in your favor if you're a betting person.
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@accalia Don't you live right next to the ocean? I thought if anywhere, that would be somewhere you could reliably get fresh seafood.
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@hungrier said in Hacking the Deere:
@accalia Don't you live right next to the ocean? I thought if anywhere, that would be somewhere you could reliably get fresh seafood.
i do, yes.
and i can, yes
but i won't because i ain't willing to risk projectile outputting through every orifice again.
once was one time too many.
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@accalia said in Hacking the Deere:
yeah. seafood ain't food. it's food poisoning in waiting.
especially when you buy from a supermarket.I've never had an issue with supermarket seafood. Heck, the only time I was ill after eating seafood, it wasn't the seafood that was the cause: it was the over-eating combined with the booze that did it.
Maybe I'm just lucky?
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The most important part of the article:
A license agreement John Deere required farmers to sign in October forbids nearly all repair and modification to farming equipment, and prevents farmers from suing for "crop loss, lost profits, loss of goodwill, loss of use of equipment … arising from the performance or non-performance of any aspect of the software." The agreement applies to anyone who turns the key or otherwise uses a John Deere tractor with embedded software. It means that only John Deere dealerships and "authorized" repair shops can work on newer tractors.
People are way too eager to sign away their rights. If the law allowed it, I bet half the people would have literally sold themselves as slaves to some company by now.
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@RaceProUK That's been my experience as well, with both grocery and restaurant seafood. In fact I can't recall if I've ever been sick from seafood.
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@accalia said in Hacking the Deere:
i do, yes.
and i can, yes
but i won't because i ain't willing to risk projectile outputting through every orifice again.
once was one time too many.A sample size of one doesn't really prove anything.
I've been eating and enjoying seafood my entire life and never once gotten sick from it, let alone experienced severe effects such as you're describing. Most likely you just had really bad luck one time.
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@anonymous234 said in Hacking the Deere:
People are way too eager to sign away their rights. If the law allowed it, I bet half the people would have literally sold themselves as slaves to some company by now.
More often than not, those things aren't really legally binding.
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@masonwheeler said in Hacking the Deere:
Most likely you just had really bad luck one time.
Yeah, maybe.
I ain't risking it again.
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@accalia if you stubbed your toe on a table would you refuse to ever go near a table again?
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@Jaloopa said in Hacking the Deere:
@accalia if you stubbed your toe on a table would you refuse to ever go near a table again?
If it smelled like seafood? Yeah.
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@Jaloopa do you go near tables? Reckless...
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@fbmac only wooden ones. I'm not crazy
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@Jaloopa said in Hacking the Deere:
@accalia if you stubbed your toe on a table would you refuse to ever go near a table again?
does stubbing my toe give me projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea for multiple days? If so, then yes, that's exactly what i would do.
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@accalia I got food poisoning from ice cream once (that's my excuse for throwing up at the after party, anyway). I still eat ice cream
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@Jaloopa said in Hacking the Deere:
@accalia I got food poisoning from ice cream once (that's my excuse for throwing up at the after party, anyway). I still eat ice cream
i doubt you got food poisoning as bad as I did.
because multiple days of constant output from both ends will stick in the mind.
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@accalia said in Hacking the Deere:
give me projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea for multiple days
You ordered "sea food" or "sea flood" ?
Maybe you just misspelled
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@RaceProUK said in Hacking the Deere:
Maybe I'm just lucky?
No, you're just a different species. It happens.
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Question: Why are farmers buying Deere machinery?
Is it better than everything else?
Or there isn't anything else?
Or they are not aware they will be gorged on maintenance costs?
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@TimeBandit said in Hacking the Deere:
@accalia said in Hacking the Deere:
give me projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea for multiple days
You ordered "sea food" or "sea flood" ?
Maybe you just misspelled
seal food, obviously. Definitely not meant for foxes
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@TimeBandit said in Hacking the Deere:
Maybe you just misspelled
I don't think that's very likely...
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@accalia said in Hacking the Deere:
@Jaloopa said in Hacking the Deere:
@accalia I got food poisoning from ice cream once (that's my excuse for throwing up at the after party, anyway). I still eat ice cream
i doubt you got food poisoning as bad as I did.
because multiple days of constant output from both ends will stick in the mind.
Wow... I mean I've had food poisoning. I had projectile vomiting from eating some bad sushi.
Still went to work the next day and still eat sushi. I just don't eat sushi that looks iffy anymore.
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@cartman82 said in Hacking the Deere:
Or there isn't anything else?
Or they are not aware they will be gorged on maintenance costs?Probably these two.
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@anonymous234 said in Hacking the Deere:
People are way too eager to sign away their rights. If the law allowed it, I bet half the people would have literally sold themselves as slaves to some company by now.
Plus it was probably hidden in 3pt Comic Sans in some EULA the size of a phone book.