MUFFIN
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@loopback0 said in MUFFIN:
@masonwheeler Most people don't do serious work on tablets.
It's different with surface books. I mean, its Windows 10 for crying out loud, of course you would want to be able to use it to its fullest. It is a mouse-and-keyboard interface after all. Being able to use it as a tablet is a perk, but that's all.
Most people are buying Android and iOS tablets though. My point still stands.
Most people don't care if their tablet comes with a keyboard or not because the main convenience of a tablet is that it's, well, a tablet and not a laptop.
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where the fuck else am I meant to go to make immature jokes?
IRC.
Ok, fair, but I can't onebox a post I'm making a joke about on IRC!
You know what we need? IRC with ribbons!
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@masonwheeler Horrible my ass. The ribbon is better than menus and is the interface users expect in Windows programs. Get over it.
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Filed under: Don't even care that this is probably completely false
Yeah, the timeline does not match at all. Windows 8 was two years after GNOME 3 and Unity was a reaction to GNOME 3, not the other way around.
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Unity was a reaction to GNOME 3
Was it? I'm pretty sure Ubuntu Netbook Edition or whatever it was called came first, and that's where Unity started. Moving it to "regular" desktop might have been a reaction to Gnome 3, but I don't think the UI itself started that way.
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@Onyx You're right about the release dates, but IIRC, GNOME 3 was already in development at the time and Canonical didn't like it.
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@cartman82 said in MUFFIN:
The interface I want is a "search everything" box from sublime (and Visual Studio TBH)
That only works if every option has a very full description or you know the name. Trying to use it for, e.g. enabling that cool wider scrollbar thing in Visual Studio isn't any good if you don't know it's called map mode.
Actually, that's a bad example because I've just tested it and scrollbar brings up the relevant options window. But the point still stands. Also, the main reason I don't use the VS one is because I forget it's there
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Also, the main reason I don't use the VS one is because I forget it's there
Maybe if we made it like 200px tall and always keep it at the top of the window...
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@cartman82 said in MUFFIN:
@boomzilla It's amazing how every interface OSS people make ends up looking horrible. Even if they are just copying an existing thing.
OSS people? Bah, amateurs (*) compared to high-end specialized commercial software! I have yet to see any piece of software that my employer had to paid thousands for, with an non-horrible UI. It seems to be that the more you pay for it, the crapiest the interface.
(*) yeah, I know, litterally...
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@RaceProUK said in MUFFIN:
@masonwheeler said in MUFFIN:
@asdf Would it be better to have them waste horizontal space?
In Word, probably, since documents tend to be portrait. In Excel though, the top-bar ribbon's probably better.
Hey, someone gets it. Modern screens are, progressively, becoming more and more landscape-ish (4:3=> 8:5 => 16:9 => ???), and some bright spark makes the top-of-window furniture taller? For a program handling portrait-format documents?
Um.
Does. Not. Compute.
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Gnome 3 is bold and it took courage!
They were probably chugging Nescafé when they came up with it.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in MUFFIN:
4:3=> 8:5 => 16:9 =>
???21:9Yes, really. No, I don't know why.
I miss 16:10s, I like that ratio.
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@cartman82 said in MUFFIN:
"search everything" box
so the command line in a GUI?
Search is for when you're not sure what you want.
Command line is for when you are no longer doubting (or feel like getting lucky).
Filed under: Good luck getting the
tar
invocation right every time
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Good luck getting the tar invocation right every time
Ordering GCC flags correctly can be even harder.
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Good luck getting the tar invocation right every time
Do I just not use some arcane complicated options, or am I a freaking wizard, because I never found those hard...
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@Onyx There are two things1 I do with tar so the commands are practically muscle memory.
- Feathers and roofing
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@masonwheeler said in MUFFIN:
How is the ribbon any different?
The text is smaller and the layout doesn't lend itself to a quick one-pass visual scan.
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Ordering GCC flags correctly can be even harder.
The important thing is that there is an order, and it matters. And if you're doing enough for it to be really confusing, you're doing too much. :p
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@cartman82 said in MUFFIN:
"search everything" box
so the command line in a GUI?
Yes. If command lines work well (for some things), and GUIs work well (for some other things), then why not take the good parts of each and combine them?
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@flabdablet Why didn't you change anything in that post? ;)
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@anonymous234
And so the FrankenInterface was born!
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@Steve_The_Cynic
So, basically, you're copacetic with the Ribbon, as long as someone moves it to the side of the screen instead of the top? Got it. ;)
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@masonwheeler said in MUFFIN:
You were saying?
Let me know how many menu entries you have to scan through to find the Horizontal Line option.
Oh, wait, I opened the wrong menu because I assumed an HR was a formatting option. Maybe it's in this menu?
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@bb36e Not the greatest example, as it's hidden away in the Ribbon too:
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@RaceProUK dammit! well LO can learn from microsoft :^)
I think the lesson to take away from this is that all software is bad
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@antiquarian said in MUFFIN:
@masonwheeler said in MUFFIN:
The Ribbon is horrible! Why is it that people feel the need to copy a dominant player's mistakes as well as the things they got right? (See also: Android phones with no keyboard.)
There's a faction in the OSS community that believes making software usable means making it look like Microsoft products.
It's usually better than cargoculting phone interfaces onto a desktop.
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Let me know how many menu entries you have to scan through to find the Horizontal Line option.
Just hit
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three times and thenEnter
?Friggin noobs, all'aya!
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@antiquarian Wait, what???
Gnome are the Microsoft-likes now?
What is KDE then??
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Gnome are the Microsoft-likes now?
What is KDE then??They both are, but KDE stopped at Windows 7.
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@TimeBandit said in MUFFIN:
What's not discoverable about a text menu ?
Off the top of my head:
- It's hard to scan visually, because it's only text
- You actually have to look inside the menu and scroll past all greyed out (disabled) entries to find out which actions you can perform on your current selection
Office 2003, Visual Studio 2015 and current versions of Libreoffice all use something called "toolbars". Which can be contextual. And use icons.
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It's usually better than cargoculting phone interfaces onto a desktop.
I like Windows 10 in that regard. They finally understood you need two different modes, and as soon as I remove the keyboard, the UI adjusts just enough to be usable with my finger.
It's a good idea to be consistent across different device classes, since the difference is fading away anyway, but it's also a good idea to remove all the unnecessary padding and simplifications once I attach a mouse and keyboard to my computer.
Office 2003, Visual Studio 2015 and current versions of Libreoffice all use something called "toolbars". Which can be contextual. And use icons.
And use the precious vertical space @masonwheeler is complaining about as well. Basically, a toolbar is a somewhat condensed ribbon, with smaller buttons that are a bit harder to hit and recognize.
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toolbar
Looking back toolbars started to ribbonize when more and more interactive elements were added instead of just buttons
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@ben_lubar said in MUFFIN:
Did you guess "the text that says camera"? Because that's the correct answer!
camera == wireframe That's not even close to intuitive. Even Blender, which some people consider the poster child of bad UI design, is better than that:
@ben_lubar said in MUFFIN:
You can probably find Ctrl+Z and Ctrl+Y now that I've told you they're there.
Oh, yeah; I overlooked those the first time. [Edit: Hit the wrong button and submitted before I was done.] Also, I blame mobile.
@ben_lubar said in MUFFIN:
Ok, so you click the icon that @blakeyrat says looks like a light bulb to add a light source. What button do you click to add a forklift?
The same button. Which button do you use to add an alien?
The same button. Which button do you click to add a camera?
The exact same button. No, not the one that looks like a camera. I have no idea what that one does.Having a single "Add Object" button makes sense. Making it look like a specific type of object, not so much.
@ben_lubar said in MUFFIN:
The "manipulate terrain" button is inside the menu opened by the "apply texture" button.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in MUFFIN:
4:3=> 8:5 => 16:9 =>
???21:9Yes, really. No, I don't know why.
I miss 16:10s, I like that ratio.
My monitor is 21:9, but my graphics card only does 16:9, which gets stretched to fit the monitor. I dream of someday having a graphics card that supports the monitor properly, so that I get the extra screen real estate that I wanted instead of a distorted view of the 1920x1080 desktop.
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@pydsigner said in MUFFIN:
"Hey, 2009? 2017 called, it wants your Gnome back."
Hey 2009 ? Ignore that call. Everything is fine.
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Do I just not use some arcane complicated options, or am I a freaking wizard, because I never found those hard...
tar -czvf foo.tgz files...
tar -xzvf foo.tgz
Rarely,tar -gzvf foo.tgz
if I want to know what's in the archive without extracting it.That pretty much covers everything I ever need. The first creates the compressed archive; the second extracts the files from it. (Verbose flag optional; most of the time, no.) I rarely need to exclude files from the archive, and I don't think I've ever needed to use -C (cd to directory before — or in the middle of — processing the archive) or worry about links, so I've never bothered learning those options.
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[Re. GCC flags] And if you're doing enough for it to be really confusing, you're doing too much.
I do that every day. But all the complexity is in makefiles (generated by Ruby scripts processing YAML config files, generated by Python scripts, produced by ..., ), but I don't have to maintain any of that stuff, and it (mostly) Just Worksâ„¢.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in MUFFIN:
4:3=> 8:5 => 16:9 =>
???21:9Yes, really. No, I don't know why.
So you can have one really wide monitor. Personally, I'd rather have 2 normal ones. Maximize works better.
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Oh, wait, I opened the wrong menu because I assumed an HR was a formatting option. Maybe it's in this menu?
That's what I do in ribbons. (oh, there's a little arrow on that icon, maybe it's under there)
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Oh, wait, I opened the wrong menu because I assumed an HR was a formatting option. Maybe it's in this menu?
That's what I do in ribbons. (oh, there's a little arrow on that icon, maybe it's under there)
Yeah, the ribbon doesn't really solve that problem. Multiple menus; which menu? Multiple ribbon tabs (or whatever they call them); which tab?
My main problem with the ribbon was really just when it was first introduced. The stuff I used, I knew where to find it in the menus. The ribbon moved my cheese, and it took a while to learn where to find it. Now that I am used to using the ribbon, meh. I usually have it hidden, though, because vertical space on the screen.
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@HardwareGeek I have it hidden on my Surface, but visible on my desktop and workstation.
No, I don't understand why either.
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@HardwareGeek said in MUFFIN:
tar -xzvf foo.tgz
If you're not creating the archive, skip the z. If you are creating the archive, use J instead of z because it's much better compression.
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@Steve_The_Cynic
So, basically, you're copacetic with the Ribbon, as long as someone moves it to the side of the screen instead of the top? Got it. ;)Well, aside from not using that particular word, sure. And heck, the Ribbon isn't that tall, so I don't even mind it where it is.
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@HardwareGeek said in MUFFIN:
Oh, wait, I opened the wrong menu because I assumed an HR was a formatting option. Maybe it's in this menu?
That's what I do in ribbons. (oh, there's a little arrow on that icon, maybe it's under there)
Yeah, the ribbon doesn't really solve that problem. Multiple menus; which menu? Multiple ribbon tabs (or whatever they call them); which tab?
My main problem with the ribbon was really just when it was first introduced. The stuff I used, I knew where to find it in the menus. The ribbon moved my cheese, and it took a while to learn where to find it. Now that I am used to using the ribbon, meh. I usually have it hidden, though, because vertical space on the screen.
Those of us who remember our history will recall that Office changed where interesting things were in the menus on every new major version and some of the minor ones as well. And that was when they were just menus, no ribbon involved.
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And if you're doing enough for it to be really confusing, you're
doing too muchprobably trying to manually debug your complex C++ build, which requires large amounts of alcohol to be somewhat bearable.FTFM
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And if you're doing enough for it to be really confusing, you're
doing too muchprobably trying tomanually debug your complex C++ buildget a WCF client working with a slightly non-standard config, which requires large amounts of alcohol to be somewhat bearable.FTFM
FTFTFMFM
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@HardwareGeek said in MUFFIN:
But all the complexity is in makefiles (generated by Ruby scripts processing YAML config files, generated by Python scripts, produced by
Yo dawg, I heard you NEED A SANE BUILD SYSTEM. :P
@HardwareGeek said in MUFFIN:
it (mostly) Just Works
I pity the soul who inherits this mess when you leave.