Traffic sins
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@RaceProUK That depends on what you consider a car. This guy built a self-propelled three wheeler in 1769, and caused the first car crash in the world a few years later:
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@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
Who replaces clutches?
I'll have to ask some of my drag race buddies how long theirs last. Brake stalling is arguably easier on the powertrain than revving the engine to a comparable RPM and dumping the clutch for a launch.
I bought a new Civic in 99 and sold it in 2013 with 275k miles and the original clutch.
Ah, okay, so it's not a performance car. That changes things. But I'll see your anecdote and raise you one. My stepdad had an '80s Civic for 300k miles and I believe he replaced the clutch at least twice.
I also wouldn't stress out too much over a $2k difference in the price of something you're going to keep for 5-10+ years. Fuel, maintenance and incidental costs are going to dwarf the difference in the initial price.
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@Polygeekery said in Traffic sins:
@abarker said in Traffic sins:
Some of us Americans do, too. When we can find a manual transmission, that is.
This.
On the top of the list of statistics that make me sad:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a30217/2016-corvette-manual-take-rate/
The 8L90 is a magnificent piece of machinery (as is the new 10-speed on the new ZL1), but you have to give them props for putting in a seven speed manual just for that car.
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@Groaner said in Traffic sins:
The 8L90 is a magnificent piece of machinery (as is the new 10-speed on the new ZL1), but you have to give them props for putting in a seven speed manual just for that car.
They are both great gearboxes, but the manual is just so much more fun to drive.
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@Polygeekery said in Traffic sins:
@Groaner said in Traffic sins:
The 8L90 is a magnificent piece of machinery (as is the new 10-speed on the new ZL1), but you have to give them props for putting in a seven speed manual just for that car.
They are both great gearboxes, but the manual is just so much more fun to drive.
Do you speak from experience? I've driven C7's with the 6L80 and 8L90, but haven't yet tried the manual.
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@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@Groaner said in Traffic sins:
10-speed
Is the
CorvetteCamaro now a pushbike?FTFY (but around or after model year 2018, you may be correct)
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@Groaner said in Traffic sins:
why do they clutch to such antiquated technology?
Because manuals are beyond "cool"... they're clutch.
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@Groaner said in Traffic sins:
@Polygeekery said in Traffic sins:
@Groaner said in Traffic sins:
The 8L90 is a magnificent piece of machinery (as is the new 10-speed on the new ZL1), but you have to give them props for putting in a seven speed manual just for that car.
They are both great gearboxes, but the manual is just so much more fun to drive.
Do you speak from experience? I've driven C7's with the 6L80 and 8L90, but haven't yet tried the manual.
Yes.
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@dcon said in Traffic sins:
I don't see anything wrong with that. {tosses backpack into passenger side. Car tips Flintstones style, and goes cartwheeling down the hill}
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@blek said in Traffic sins:
Don't get behind the wheel when you're methed out of your fucking mind, because there's no other way I can explain what this one guy was doing
texting. Indistinguishable from being methed-out, drunk or functionally brain-damaged.
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@abarker said in Traffic sins:
@heterodox said in Traffic sins:
I kind of get what Lorne is saying though about edging up though once there are more vehicles behind you (less "pinball" risk) and think I do that without really realizing/rationalizing it.
I don't, and I advise against it for a couple reasons. First, if the car in front of you has a manual transmission (rare in the US, but you can never tell) and you are facing uphill, they will likely have some amount of rollback. If the driver is has little experience driving a manual, then they just rolled back into you and the cops I've talked to would place blame on you for stopping too close.
That's why in Poland when you pass your driving test driving a car with automatic transmission you're not allowed to drive cars with manual transmission.
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@Groaner said in Traffic sins:
@Jaloopa said in Traffic sins:
@loopback0 said in Traffic sins:
If a car is behind you flashing its lights then there aren't multiple meanings for that
No. It means "I am an arsehole and probably driving a BMW. This road is mine, get out of the way"
BMW's have functional lights?
They do. But they're just functionally retarded.
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@masonwheeler said in Traffic sins:
Park facing out, not in. Parking involves moving from an area where there are other things moving to an area where there's nothing moving. Leaving a parking stall involves going from an area where there's nothing moving around you into a traffic zone where things are moving. (That's a bit of an oversimplification, but not much of one.) Backing up is harder than moving forward, for reasons that should be intuitively obvious to anyone with any real-world experience driving. Therefore, it is beyond stupid to think that performing the more dangerous maneuver in the more difficult style (ie. backing out of a parking stall) is a good idea! And yet, if you go to almost any parking lot, you'll see that about 70% of the cars are parked facing in, rather than out! And it's ridiculous! A couple days ago, I went to the grocery store, and some idiot tried to back out right into my car, because I was at an angle where he couldn't clearly see me. I had to blare my horn at him for almost 3 seconds before he realized that that sound probably means there's another car behind him and stopped moving. (I couldn't back up easily to get out of his way because there were pedestrians with shopping carts behind me.) If he had parked right in the first place, he'd have been able to see me with no trouble.
Lots are not designed this way.
Therefore, it's best to assume that people leaving a parking space can't see you, and give them ample room to leave.
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@heterodox said in Traffic sins:
Now, obviously highway driving is different but I'm not familiar with much but congestion.
Only if roads are clear and you're willing to drive 20 mph faster over a 100+ mile drive. Otherwise, no, you won't gain much there either.
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@kt_ said in Traffic sins:
That's why in Poland when you pass your driving test driving a car with automatic transmission you're not allowed to drive cars with manual transmission.
Same in the UK.
It makes sense to get your license for a manual, since that also covers automatics but not vice versa, and there aren't many autos around, especially in the market you're generally looking at for a first car. So the vast majority of people learn in a manual and have a manual as their first car. At this point, all the extra complexity is second nature so even if you were a bit hesitant about driving manual, you know it and start to wonder how certain things are done in an automatic. What do you do with your left foot, does it just sit there or do you use it for the brake? Is engine braking as useful? For hill starts, would you use the handbrake or keep braked with your left foot and release it like a clutch? Suddenly, all the new things you'd have to learn for an automatic make that seem like the more complicated choice.
I owned an automatic for a while, and it didn't take as long to get used to as I'd thought it might, but I was also driving my manual as well, so several times my muscle memory would desert me and I'd put both feet on the brake to do a stop as if I was doing clutch and brake, or I'd forget to do the clutch in the manual. Some people I know say they wouldn't want to go back to a manual after owning an automatic, but I wasn't particularly swayed. If I was buying used, automatic wouldn't put me off but it wouldn't be a selling point. New, it wouldn't occur to me to look for an automatic option
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@Jaloopa said in Traffic sins:
If I was buying used, automatic wouldn't put me off but it wouldn't be a selling point. New, it wouldn't occur to me to look for an automatic option
If you're doing most of your driving in heavy traffic, an automatic is a lot nicer. It's where they really shine. Similarly, if you're doing a lot of long-distance travel then you really want cruise control, especially if you can get adaptive CC so that you won't smash into the car in front if there's suddenly lots of traffic.
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@dkf said in Traffic sins:
then you really want cruise control
It's harder these days to get a car without cruise control.
Heavy traffic and long-distance are the main reasons I drive an automatic. There's no real benefit to a manual for the remaining driving IMO - if I wanted to manually change gear I can still do that either using the gear selector or the flappy paddles but I rarely feel the need to.
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@Groaner said in Traffic sins:
I bought a new Civic in 99 and sold it in 2013 with 275k miles and the original clutch.
Ah, okay, so it's not a performance car. That changes things. But I'll see your anecdote and raise you one. My stepdad had an '80s Civic for 300k miles and I believe he replaced the clutch at least twice.
Nope - not a performance car. I've been in several performance cars and I don't see the appeal.
I also wouldn't stress out too much over a $2k difference in the price of something you're going to keep for 5-10+ years. Fuel, maintenance and incidental costs are going to dwarf the difference in the initial price.
I don't stress it but shifting becomes second nature and I forget I'm even doing it. That and I'm a tightwad so that's what I do
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@Jaloopa said in Traffic sins:
do you use it for the brake?
No
@Jaloopa said in Traffic sins:
engine braking as useful?
Don't know. But, the auto should downshift as you slow down.
@Jaloopa said in Traffic sins:
keep braked and release it like a clutch?
Riding your brakes is not good. It's not a clutch. If you use the handbrake in a manual, use it in an auto.
@Jaloopa said in Traffic sins:
but I wasn't particularly swayed
If you're good at shifting, you'll be more gas efficient than a low quality car. At least that was true when I was a teenager. By now, not so sure.
I did notice that I can coax an auto into shifting early by letting off the gas.
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@kt_ said in Traffic sins:
That's why in Poland when you pass your driving test driving a car with automatic transmission you're not allowed to drive cars with manual transmission.
That really wouldn't be a bad idea everywhere.
We have the concept of "certifications" which can be added to modify your driver's license -- a particular certification can mean you need something in order to drive (e.g. the "glasses" certification means you must wear corrective lenses in order to drive legally), or it can be required in order to drive something (e.g. to drive a motorcycle legally, your license has to have the "motorcycle" certification). Your drivers license test is modified based on these certifications... e.g. you're only allowed to wear corrective lenses for the tests if your license has that certification (or conversely, if you take the test while wearing them, your license will require you to wear them at all times); if you want the motorcycle certification you'll also be tested on riding it specifically.
It would make a lot of sense to also have a "manual transmission" certification.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
It would make a lot of sense to also have a "manual transmission" certification.
It seems like much ado over nothing. It's trivial to learn how to drive a manual.
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@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
It would make a lot of sense to also have a "manual transmission" certification.
It seems like much to do over nothing. It's trivial to learn how to drive a manual.
It's even more trivial to learn how to drive an automatic, but we require people to get a drivers license nonetheless.
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@Jaloopa said:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
Consider: the person behind you doesn't have a polite way of asking you to move over. There literally isn't one. The only thing they can do is come up behind and hope you get the message
Or flash their lights, honk their horn and generally be a dickweed. That's the sort of person I don't tend to let past until I've annoyed them a little bit more.
These are the ONLY people worth harassing... It's truly enjoyable to have someone immediately jump on your ass - and then do the "I'll hug the left of the lane so you KNOW I'm there because OBVIOUSLY you haven't moved because you can't see me in the driver side mirror".
If you stay a car length or two behind me and slowly creep up? I'll do my best to get out of your way... if you do the aformentioned asshatery? I'll take 5 miles before you get the room to pass.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
It would make a lot of sense to also have a "manual transmission" certification.
It seems like much to do over nothing. It's trivial to learn how to drive a manual.
It's even more trivial to learn how to drive an automatic, but we require people to get a drivers license nonetheless.
No we don't. We require people to get a drivers license to drive a car on public roads. There is nothing specific about auto/manual in getting a drivers license or a plate.
What problem does the "manual" certification solve?
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@brianw13a driving a manual is incrementally more difficult than learning to drive an automatic. So it'd be logical to have them tested on it before they're allowed to drive it, same as motorcycles.
You can't just say, "well, it's trivial". Driving itself is fairly trivial. The vast majority of people can learn to do it without unusual difficulty. And yet, we still require people to get tested before they're handed a drivers license.
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@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
What problem does the "manual" certification solve?
It teaches how to pull away in a manual, how to do hill starts, block changing, how to stop/emergency stop in a manual. All things that you won't encounter if you only learn in an auto and can cause a lot of problems if you're not used to them.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@brianw13a driving a manual is incrementally more difficult than learning to drive an automatic. So it'd be logical to have them tested on it before they're allowed to drive it, same as motorcycles.
You can't just say, "well, it's trivial". Driving itself is fairly trivial. The vast majority of people can learn to do it without unusual difficulty. And yet, we still require people to get tested before they're handed a drivers license.
But why? Has there been a surge of people causing accidents because they didn't know how to drive their new manual transmission vehicle?
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@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
But why? Has there been a surge of people causing accidents because they didn't know how to drive their new manual transmission vehicle?
As far as I know, nobody has ever bothered to break the "surge of people causing accidents because they didn't know how to drive their new vehicle" statistics down by transmission type. There have been, however, some statistics that suggest that elderly drivers are more accident-prone when driving manual transmission. This confirms my idea that it requires a degree of more skill, and therefore should be tested.
Young, inexperienced drivers are more accident-prone in general. It stands to reason they'd also be even more accident-prone if they're inexperienced at driving a manual transmission, since it's more difficult to drive manual than automatic.
There are some statistics that suggest the trend is the opposite for skilled drivers who are familiar with the type of vehicle -- drivers who've learned to drive manual are better drivers than those who've only learned to drive automatic. But common sense would say that only starts to reverse after they've become reasonably skilled at driving it. The learning curve is higher.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
As far as I know, nobody has ever bothered to break the "surge of people causing accidents because they didn't know how to drive their new vehicle" statistics down by transmission type.
Precisely. So we are to implement a "solution" that increases the state's cost, and inconveniences people for a problem that may not even be a problem.
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@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
So we are to implement a "solution" that increases the state's cost, and inconveniences people for a problem that may not even be a problem.
Good point, we should just do away with drivers licenses entirely...
It wouldn't even be that much of an additional cost. The test would be the same exact driving test that everyone else has to take, just performed in a manual vehicle -- their manual vehicle that they brought to the test (technically I think you're supposed to have a licensed driver drive you to the testing location, but I think they're pretty relaxed about it -- it's not like they have a cop stationed in the parking lot to check your drivers license as you pull in).
You'd need to retest people who'd only ever been tested on automatic and needed to get certified for manual, but you already have that situation with motorcycles, and it's both manageable and worthwhile to test them.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
Good point, we should just do away with drivers licenses entirely...
Or, in the name of safety, we could go in the other direction entirely and require certifications for any and every vehicle that they might drive. Horns, parking brakes, etc can all be in different locations and in panic the driver shouldn't have to think about the location of controls.
Why do you keep going back to motorcycles? The controls are different and don't resemble a car.
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@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
Good point, we should just do away with drivers licenses entirely...
Or, in the name of safety, we could go in the other direction entirely and require certifications for any and every vehicle that they might drive. Horns, parking brakes, etc can all be located in different locations and in panic the driver shouldn't have to think about the location of controls.
Why do you keep going back to motorcycles? The controls are different and don't resemble a car.
You're being obtuse now. AFAIK the horn is always somewhere on the steering wheel. You don't or shouldn't ever need to use the parking brake in an emergency while driving. Etc. You're reasonably expected to learn where the controls are on your vehicle, but it's not a big enough deal ordinarily for you to need to be retested if you get a new vehicle.
There is, however, a significant difference between driving an automatic and driving a manual. There are controls for the manual that you don't even have in an automatic. And I believe it's at least as big of a difference as driving a motorcycle, which is why I keep going back to that.
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New gripe. It is dumb to do 50 mph in a 20 mph zone while turning onto a short road that quickly meets a 3-way stop where your side doesn't have a stop sign. There just might be another car already in the intersection who had left one of the stop signs long before they could see you, and you forfeit your right to road-rage when you almost crash into them because you're a dummy who thinks your reckless driving means I broke the rules of a 3-way stop.
Glorious MS Paint illustration:
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@mott555 said in Traffic sins:
It is dumb to do 50 mph in a 20 mph zone
Yes.
Now to read the rest of it.
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Reverse car analogy!
Manual transmissions are the Firefox 22 of the car world.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
You're being obtuse now. AFAIK the horn is always somewhere on the steering wheelYes it is. But they aren't always in the center which can make a big difference.
You don't or shouldn't ever need to use the parking brake in an emergency while driving. Etc.
Never? So when my brake line rusted through and I had to rely on the mechanical parking brakes to stop I was doing it wrong?
You're reasonably expected to learn where the controls are on your vehicle, but it's not a big enough deal ordinarily for you to need to be retested if you get a new vehicle.
I would agree and yes I am being obtuse. The clutch and shifter is just another piece of equipment to learn. I have yet to see anyone want to jump into a manual and try to drive it because.
There is, however, a significant difference between driving an automatic and driving a manual.
I don't see it that way. We'll have to agree to disagree.
There are controls for the manual that you don't even have in an automatic.
More obtuseness: What about that manual transmission Jeep that has yet more controls for engaging 4 wheel drive? What about rear wheel drive - that's a lot different in the snow and ice than front wheel drive.
And I believe it's at least as big of a difference as driving a motorcycle, which is why I keep going back to that.
There are a lot of differences between vehicles.
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@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
Never? So when my brake line rusted through and I had to rely on the mechanical parking brakes to stop I was doing it wrong?
Yes. Waiting until crucial safety equipment fails in the middle of operation is
.I have yet to see anyone want to jump into a manual and try to drive it because.
There is, however, a significant difference between driving an automatic and driving a manual.
I don't see it that way.
Have you ever driven a manual?
If you haven't, you will not be able to on the first attempt. "Knowing" how it works won't help you. You're going to need practice. It's significantly different. And that's precisely why you "have yet to see anyone want to jump into a manual and try to drive it because". Because it's different.
What about that manual transmission Jeep that has yet more controls for engaging 4 wheel drive?
Not relevant in an emergency.
What about rear wheel drive - that's a lot different in the snow and ice than front wheel drive.
Drive slowly and cautiously and you'll be just fine. Certainly it's not a big enough change that you literally can't drive one because you haven't learned it because you've only ever driven the other.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
Never? So when my brake line rusted through and I had to rely on the mechanical parking brakes to stop I was doing it wrong?
Yes. Waiting until crucial safety equipment fails in the middle of operation is
.That's good.
I have yet to see anyone want to jump into a manual and try to drive it because.
There is, however, a significant difference between driving an automatic and driving a manual.
I don't see it that way.
Have you ever driven a manual?
I've been driving manual for 25 years.
If you haven't, you will not be able to on the first attempt.
Nope sure won't.
"Knowing" how it works won't help you.
Um, yeah I think that's an important first step.
You're going to need practice.
Yep.
It's significantly different.
Slightly.
And that's precisely why you "have yet to see anyone want to jump into a manual and try to drive it because". Because it's different.
Yup, and by the time they get on a public road they don't have that problem any more. Negates the need for a certification.
What about that manual transmission Jeep that has yet more controls for engaging 4 wheel drive?
Not relevant in an emergency.Could be. Depends on the emergency.
You can't even switch between 2-wheel and 4-wheel drive while you're in motion -- you have to come to a stop first.
Your information is out of date. Of course there's also the need to certify for part-time vs full-time 4 wheel drive. We wouldn't want anyone to leave their transfer case on the highway for the next unlucky driver.
What about rear wheel drive - that's a lot different in the snow and ice than front wheel drive.
Drive slowly and cautiously and you'll be fine.
That's what I would say about driving a manual.
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@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
that's an important first step
Fair point.
by the time they get on a public road they don't have that problem any more
If they're still rolling back a significant amount when trying to start on a hill, then yes they fucking do.
Could be. Depends on the emergency.
No it could not be. Any possible emergency that requires you to use 4-wheel drive is not time-sensitive enough that Bad Things will happen if it takes you an extra couple of seconds to remember how to engage it. Unless you're an idiot who realizes that he needs 4-wheel drive while on the highway 0.5 seconds before he spins out and crashes into something. In which case, 4-wheel drive still isn't going to help you.
Your information is out of date.
I edited that out before you posted, because it's actually 4WD Low that requires you to be stopped.
However, as I said above, if you're realizing that you need 4WD 0.5 seconds before Bad Things happen, the vehicle's 4WD or lack thereof is not the problem. You are.
That's what I would say about driving a manual.
If you stall while going from 1st to 2nd gear there's a significant chance that you'll get rear-ended. And didn't we just have the whole "MOTHERFUCKER YOU SLOWED DOWN FOR NO GOOD REASON IT'S YOUR FAULT THAT WE HAD AN ACCIDENT" discussion like 150 posts above in this very thread? (Being an incompetent driver is not a good reason to abruptly stop in traffic, by the way.)
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
And I believe it's at least as big of a difference as driving a motorcycle,
I have to disagree with you. Driving a car with a manual transmission involves some skills that an automatic doesn't, but 90% of the skills are the same, and the manual is a strict superset of the automatic. Riding a motorcycle requires an almost entirely different set of skills. Not only are the controls completely different, you don't have to, for example, balance on two wheels to drive a car. (In fact, I'd guess that if you manage to get the car onto two wheels during your test, that's probably going to be a FAIL.)
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@HardwareGeek said in Traffic sins:
you don't have to, for example, balance on two wheels to drive a car
Depends on your driving style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMTx0ZTOaIc
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@HardwareGeek said in Traffic sins:
Not only are the controls completely different
The controls aren't completely different; they're just in different places.
you don't have to, for example, balance on two wheels to drive a car.
You know what else you have to balance on two wheels to drive? A bicycle.
Which, I'll point out, does not require a drivers license to operate on public streets... oh and the brakes are in the same place too.
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@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
Depends on your driving style:
Yes, well, as I wrote, I don't think you're going to get a passing mark if you drive like that on your licensing exam.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
You know what else you have to balance on two wheels to drive? A bicycle.
Which, I'll point out, does not require a drivers license to operate on public streetsThough given how reckless cyclists can be, I sometimes think they should.
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@anotherusername I'm guessing you've never ridden a motorcycle before.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@brianw13a said in Traffic sins:
by the time they get on a public road they don't have that problem any more
If they're still rolling back a significant amount when trying to start on a hill, then yes they fucking do.
And yet it seems that the manual drivers of the world can do it on a regular basis without issue.
Could be. Depends on the emergency.
No it could not be. Any possible emergency that requires you to use 4-wheel drive is not time-sensitive enough that Bad Things will happen if it takes you an extra couple of seconds to remember how to engage it. Unless you're an idiot who realizes that he needs 4-wheel drive while on the highway 0.5 seconds before he spins out and crashes into something. In which case, 4-wheel drive still isn't going to help you.
True but we were talking about the proper use of controls.
I edited that out before you posted, because it's actually 4WD Low that requires you to be stopped.
Your information is still out of date (at least for certain vehicles).
If you stall while going from 1st to 2nd gear there's a significant chance that you'll get rear-ended. And didn't we just have the whole "MOTHERFUCKER YOU SLOWED DOWN FOR NO GOOD REASON IT'S YOUR FAULT THAT WE HAD AN ACCIDENT" discussion like 150 posts above in this very thread?
I didn't read that far back. But.... if you get rear ended - it's the fault of the person behind you. Failure to maintain a safe distance and all that.
(Being an incompetent driver is not a good reason to abruptly stop in traffic, by the way.)
No it's not. People pull that and worse all the time. It annoys the hell out of me but then that's what citations and defensive driving are for.
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@mott555 moped, not a motorcycle but it had all the exact same controls as a motorcycle.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
The controls aren't completely different; they're just in different places.
Steering: handlebars vs. wheel
Brake: squeeze a lever with your hand vs. press a pedal with your foot
Throttle: twist a handle vs. press a foot pedal
Clutch: hand lever vs. foot pedal
Shifter: do something with your foot vs. hand leverWhat the controls do is the same, but how you operate them is completely different.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@mott555 moped, not a motorcycle but it had all the exact same controls as a motorcycle.
lol
Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot - Wikipedia
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