Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :doing_it_wrong:
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@Rhywden German is already a marked improvement over French for ease of spelling (and a stepstone in the longass words department, too).
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@Grunnen The Duden/Rechtschreibrat/whatever is not law however, my dear.
Please explain the "ß" in the Personalausweis.
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@Rhywden That what I cited is not Duden, that is the official spelling how it must be used in schools and administration.
Vorwort
1 Geltungsbereich der neuen Rechtschreibregelung
Das folgende amtliche Regelwerk, mit einem Regelteil und einem Wörterverzeichnis,
regelt die Rechtschreibung innerhalb derjenigen Institutionen
(Schule, Verwaltung), für die der Staat Regelungskompetenz
hinsichtlich der Rechtschreibung hat.
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@Grunnen said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
@Rhywden That what I cited is not Duden, that is the official spelling how it must be used in schools and administration.
You still have not explained the street signs and Personalausweis. Both highly official documents / signs.
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@accalia said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
the horror that goes into a fully functional build system,
make
builds its own makefiles on the fly. It also creates C source code by running an executable that it also built using ??? as input. It mostly works, which is a good thing, because what it does behind the scenes ... shudder.
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@HardwareGeek I've never seen a build system that wasn't deeply worrying, and I've always been glad when I realise I haven't got the time to solve the array of bizarreness that the authors of such systems have to handle.
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@Rhywden Street signs are not "highly official". As for the Personalausweis, Wikipedia says:
Die neue deutsche Rechtschreibung schreibt seit 1996 für den Versalsatz die einheitliche Ersetzung von Eszett durch den Doppelbuchstaben „SS“ vor, entsprechend dem traditionell üblichen Gebrauch. Eine Unterscheidung etwa zwischen „Masse“ und „Maße“ ist damit im Versalsatz nicht mehr möglich.
Die Ersetzung des Eszett durch andere Großbuchstaben führt insbesondere bei Eigennamen zu Mehrdeutigkeiten. Der Name „WEISS“ könnte für „Weiß“ oder „Weiss“ stehen, der Name „LISZT“ für „Lißt“ oder „Liszt“. Deswegen bildete sich als dritte Möglichkeit der Mischsatz heraus. Das Eszett wird nicht ersetzt. Der Name „Weiß“ wird im versalen Mischsatz zu „WEIß“. Diese Schreibweise wird seit den 1980er Jahren im nicht maschinenlesbaren Teil der deutschen Reisepässe und Personalausweise angewandt, wenn der Name in Versalien gesetzt wird,[8] aber andererseits eine korrekte Wiedergabe der „Originalschreibweise“ wichtig erscheint.
So, for pragmatical reasons names with "ß" appear in mixed-case on the Personalausweis.
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@Grunnen Was that so hard? So much for your "fantasy letter".
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@Rhywden So, then, what do you think the mixed-case street sign with lower-case "ß" proves?
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Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to "Arguing about German casing rules with the rules posted in German on an English-language forum is ."
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@HardwareGeek said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to "Arguing about German casing rules with the rules posted in German on an English-language forum is ."
It is quite insightful, I think. If you already get such a discussion about the simple question what the uppercase variant of one certain letter in one certain language is, then just imagine the discussions you'll get when you want to provide a system-level functionality for all languages worldwide.
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@HardwareGeek not just quite yet, because I am going to expand it to Swedish.
It took a long while for Windows to even accept åäöÅÄÖ as part of file names. When it did, it only took a couple of files named 'r\305ksm\307rg\302s.png' (or something like thta, I CBA to look up the exact numbers) to realise that it may work, but only if you first sacrifice a goat, and so you tend to avoid any special characters in file names. There are files that I cant't check in to my CVS because they were created by an idiot who put an ä in the filename, sent it to a windows user who checked it in, and when I pulled it, it got translated to some mac-vernacular. I repeat: only idiots put åäöÅÄÖ in their filenames.
NONE of this has any bearing at all to the point of upper/lowercase letters. If I am able to name my files with uppercases (eg. PascalCase), and the filesystem can find it if I search for lowercase, I would be happy. As it happens, that's how tab-complete works in emacs unless there actually is a name conflict, so I am a happy camper.
I think OSX stores the files with the capitalisation you gave them, but treats all upper/lowercase-mutations as duplicates.
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@Grunnen It helps illustrate the complexity of the problem, sure, but the actual text doesn't help anyone except the few who are German. My knowledge of German is completely inadequate to read that, and I don't care about the issue enough to bother running it through Google translate, which would probably make a hash of it anyway.
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@Rhywden said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Then the case of the word has no immediate impact on its meaning - it's rather an artifact of language and conveys next to no useful additional information.
Sind Sie sicher, dass sie das nicht tut?
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@LaoC said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
@Rhywden said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Then the case of the word has no immediate impact on its meaning - it's rather an artifact of language and conveys next to no useful additional information.
Sind Sie sicher, dass
siees das nicht tut?:grammar-nazi:
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@HardwareGeek said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to "Arguing about German casing rules with the rules posted in German on an English-language forum is ."
I think you just won the entire discussion.
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@dkf said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
So, have we at least established this stuff is complicated?
Right. Now, given that it is complicated, why are we expecting the operating system kernel to deal with all those gnarly bits for you?
Because if your entire application layer is built as to be case-insensitive, it's more than likely that very funny things will happen when someone does manage to create two files differing only by case. For instance, Git on Windows very much doesn't like having to pull two branches which differ by case only...
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@Mikael_Svahnberg said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
I think OSX stores the files with the capitalisation you gave them, but treats all upper/lowercase-mutations as duplicates.
It's possible to run OSX with a case-sensitive file system, but IME (case-insensitive OSX) it works pretty much like you described. You can have either
~/important.txt
or~/Important.txt
, but not both. Annoyingly, tab-completion is case-sensitive, so~/imp
tab wouldn't autocomplete~/Important.txt
.
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@accalia said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
no one person cna fully comprehend the horror that goes into a fully functional build system, at least not while remaining sane.
The "fun" thing about build systems is that they're all inner platforms, so you can get the urge to create them out of your system that way.
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@ixvedeusi said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Yes, I'd understand "teetasse", but I'd expect a case-insensitive file system to find the folder "WASSERFAELLE" if I do a search for "wasserfälle". Also, would your hypothetical case-insensitive file system allow a file "WASSERFAELLE.PNG" next to "wasserfälle.png"?
Not a good point, that's just a locale-specific convention that's not related to case because there are upper- as well as lowercase umlauts.
But I don't think one could come up with a scheme that would correctly treat ß and SS as equivalent and at the same time allow me a misspelled Grosßtadt.png next to Großstadt.png. For reasons that are obvious when you're familiar with the case folding behind the scenes but that are completely baffling to a non-technical user. You could of course try lowercasing everything internally but then GROSSSTADT.PNG and großstadt.png would be allowed next to each other even though they shouldn't.And yes, Ä is a perfectly valid uppercase ä, but so is AE. If your algorithm doesn't get that, it's wrong.
Nope.
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@Rhywden said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Sind Sie sicher, dass
siees das nicht tut?:grammar-nazi:
Das Groß- und Kleinschreibung?
:nazier_than_thou:
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@LaoC said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
@Rhywden said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Sind Sie sicher, dass
siees das nicht tut?:grammar-nazi:
Das Groß- und Kleinschrebung?
:nazier_than_thou:
*twitch*
Rrrrrrr! Gleich wird zurrrrückgeschossen!
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Skipped reading at about page 3, where the thread seems to have collapsed into germans shrieking about the SS.
Are we there yet, Auntie Godwin?
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@tufty said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Skipped reading at about page 3, where the thread seems to have collapsed into germans shrieking about the SS.
Are we there yet, Auntie Godwin?
Nein, nein, nein!
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
- well, turns out that "parking_sign.png" and "parking_sign.PNG" are not the same file.
Yeah. and very difficult to tell when Windows hides the file "extensions".
I don't know what you're talking about. Windows doesn't hide the file extensions.
Unless you leave that idiotic "feature" turned on. But I don't know why anyone would do that.
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@Rhywden said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Are you unable to understand the word "Teetasse" just because I spelt it "teetasse"?
Yes... if you'd spelt it "potato", I'd have known precisely what you meant.
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@accalia said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
aaah. yesssssss. build systems.... no one person cna fully comprehend the horror that goes into a fully functional build system, at least not while remaining sane.
All I know is ours craps out about every other build... (jenkins) Usually because it dropped a network connection while getting files.
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@flabdablet said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Please pass on my sincerest apology for misspelling its remarks to your nearest cow.
munchmunchmunch. Needs more cheese.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
For instance, Git on Windows very much doesn't like having to pull two branches which differ by case only...
Shit. Don't remind me. We had "v6" and "V6" for a while...
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@hungrier said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Annoyingly, tab-completion is case-sensitive, so
~/imp
tab wouldn't autocomplete~/Important.txt
.You can fix that. In my ~/.inputrc:
set completion-ignore-case on set show-all-if-ambiguous on TAB: menu-complete
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@anotherusername said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Unless you leave that idiotic "feature" turned on. But I don't know why anyone would do that.
Fucking defaults.
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@dcon said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
You can fix that. In my ~/.inputrc:
Thanks, I'll try that when I get home.
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@HardwareGeek said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
It helps illustrate the complexity of the problem, sure, but the actual text doesn't help anyone except the few who are German.
While not helpful, Swiss people are probably amused by the text, though. Switzerland got rid of the β and just always write "ss". So ... say, what? Your name is "Weiß"? Well, not anymore, Mr. Weiss.
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@hungrier said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
@dcon said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
You can fix that. In my ~/.inputrc:
Thanks, I'll try that when I get home.
Being mainly a windows-dude, that drove me nuts until I finally found that magic incantation.
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@Akko said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
"ae" is just an ancient way to write "ä" in German in systems that do not know about umlauts
In Dutch, for example, "ae" is an archaic way of writing what in modern spelling is written "aa". I’m sure still different things apply for other languages.
@Rhywden said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Pretty much any German teacher I know (and pretty much all of the ones I don't know) will laugh at you with your notion that "AE" should be considered equivalent to "Ä".
Has nobody told that to http://www.hoechstaedt.de, http://www.osnabrueck.de, http://www.muenchen.de, or http://www.stadt-schoenau.de?
@Dreikin said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
There might be cases where there are significant locale changes within a country without changing the language, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Belgium?
Not sure what you mean … Belgium has language changes without changing the locale (nl_BE, fr_BE, and de_BE), but not the other way around.
@Bulb said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Belgium simply has two languages.
See above.
@Luhmann said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Also 'Simply' does in no way describe the Belgian
languagesituation.@masonwheeler said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
@heterodox said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
"Color" is preferred in American English but "colour" is not a misspelling.
Is it pronounced with a U? In Britain or anywhere else?
Is it pronounced with a second O? Anywhere? AFAIK the pronunciation is approximately /kɔlər/.
@Khudzlin said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
English is among the worst languages for its spelling-pronunciation relationship (right up there with French).
English is far worse than French — at least with French, if you see a word written down you can probably pronounce it correctly (given a basic knowledge of the rules, of course) but you can be hard-pressed to write a word correctly if you only know its pronunciation. In English you can’t reliably do either.
@Mikael_Svahnberg said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
I think OSX stores the files with the capitalisation you gave them, but treats all upper/lowercase-mutations as duplicates.
In
OS XmacOS you can’t name files the same except for capitalization. If you try in the Finder, it will tell you the name is already in use and you should choose another. If you try it in a terminal window, results may differ, but:$ touch this $ touch THIS
produces only a single file, named
this
.@hungrier said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Annoyingly, tab-completion is case-sensitive
Because Bash (or whatever your shell is) handles that part, and it grew up in a case-sensitive environment. However, the terminal is also case-insensitive, because trying something like
less foobar
when all you have is a file calledFoobar
will happily display its contents.
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@Gurth said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Is it pronounced with a second O? Anywhere? AFAIK the pronunciation is approximately /kɔlər/.
In English, any vowel plus R in an unstressed syllable tends to be pronounced as /ər/, so yes, it's consistent.
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@masonwheeler True, but the point is that implying the u is a misspelling because it’s not pronounced means the same could be said for the second o. Then again, at least it’s not Irish. I don’t think I’ve encountered any language where half the letters written in a word don’t seem to be pronounced, and (seemingly) half the sounds in the words aren’t represented when it’s written down.
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@Gurth said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
at least with French, if you see a word written down you can probably pronounce it correctly (given a basic knowledge of the rules, of course)
You mean, "Ignore half the letters, that's just one syllable" I assume?
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@Magus Basically, yes — but that’s more a problem for writing than for pronunciation, once you know that, for instance, eau is /o/, but /o/ could be o, au, eau, and whatever else.
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@Gurth said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
AFAIK the pronunciation is approximately /kɔlər/.
More like /kʌlər/, at least in 'Murkin. /kɔlər/ would be collar.
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@ixvedeusi said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Same goes for SS -> ss or ß.
There is a capital ß in Unicode as well, just to confuse the hell out of everyone.
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@Rhywden said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
There's no uppercase ß so the question does not even pose itself.
Bzzzt! Wrong!
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@Gurth said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
the terminal is also case-insensitive
I don't think it's the terminal; I think it's the filesystem. HFS+ uses case-preserving, case-insensitive filenames.
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@Gurth said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
@Rhywden said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Pretty much any German teacher I know (and pretty much all of the ones I don't know) will laugh at you with your notion that "AE" should be considered equivalent to "Ä".
Has nobody told that to http://www.hoechstaedt.de, http://www.osnabrueck.de, http://www.muenchen.de, or http://www.stadt-schoenau.de?
Say, this whole "LATIN-1 is not ASCII" thing just went over your head, didn't it? Not a problem of cases. That's one regarding character sets
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@Grunnen said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
That sign is just wrong, using a fantasy letter.
Here's a Wikipedia article which lists fonts that have a capital ß. Some of them are over 100 years old:
You can argue that it doesn't conform to the current official rules, but the letter definitely exists.
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@asdf said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
@Rhywden said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
There's no uppercase ß so the question does not even pose itself.
Bzzzt! Wrong!
Problem solved, then.
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@hungrier said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
Annoyingly, tab-completion is case-sensitive, so ~/imptab wouldn't autocomplete ~/Important.txt.
Excuse me, Sir, do you have a moment to talk about
Jesuszsh?
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@asdf said in Case (in)?sensitive filesystems are :
You can argue
thþat it doesn't conform tothþe current official rules, butthþe letter definitely exists.FTFY
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@Yamikuronue Do I have to pronounce that with a liþp?
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BTW: I still don't get why ß is written as "SS" when it's capitalized. "SZ" would make much more sense.