What is shame?
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So yeah, I was randomly thinking of the bible story about Adam and Even while in the shower (as you do). One of the conclusions is that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil allowed them to understand the shamefulness of being naked.
I have never understood this concept.
First off, to preface, I don't really get embarrassed. Everything that can be cited as an embarrassing action I have learned by trans-introspection and thoughtfully applied as the situation requires. For instance, the primary reason I wear clothes (besides chafing) is that not doing so is highly frowned upon and would have legal and social repercussions that would negatively impact my personal quality of life. This despite the fact that apparently it being "shameful" to be naked should be enough.
What am I missing here? What causes shame? And why is it shameful?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
What am I missing here? What causes shame? And why is it shameful?
I believe that pretty much all of shame is learned, its a social thing. With regards to clothing, that is entirely a social thing. Even in Europe, what is deemed ok with regards to nakedness has varied a lot. There have been cultures in Europe where showing your ankles was an affront to the sensibilities, while sporting a set of naked titties at the same time would be the preferred way to dress.
I am not unlike you in that I really don't feel ashamed. I wear clothes because others find nakedness disconcerting, and because of weather. Being naked in freezing temperatures gets a bit uncomfortable. Clothing is just one example where I don't feel shame. I also don't care if others are dressed or naked.
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@Carnage said in What is shame?:
I also don't care if others are dressed or naked.
I have a preference, but it varies from person to person.
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If you really want some answers, you should pick up some anthropology textbook. Shame (and guilt) is one of the core concepts. In a nutshell: it's core mechanism used to control society. Officially it's replaced by law (in non-primitive cultures), but in reality law only properly works in conjunction with shame and guilt.
Now why is lack of clothing shameful (to the degree that it's explicitly illegal in most places around the world), that is very advanced stuff.
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On a side note, I've come to view the story of Eden as an allegory for the end of childlike innocence and the transition into adult life with the attendant responsibilities, knowledge etc.
In the beginning were children. A distant, powerful parental figure provided everything they needed and they didn't need to question anything. They were happy running around naked and did what they were asked simply because the distant, powerful figure asked it. At some point, another character enters the story who encourages them to question authority, eventually leading to them going against a strong rule laid out for them. This leads to enlightenment, more knowledge and more freedom but also the loss of the protective garden of innocence, and they have to go their own way in the world and make their own mistakes. The parent figure is sad about this as they wanted to be able to protect them forever, but at the same time it was always part of the plan that they grow and develop. The snake who pushed them towards this is still the subject of ire though. Couldn't this all have waited for a few more years?
Of course, lots of this comes from before I had children and saw first hand just how cynical and manipulative a 4 year old can be
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@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
First off, to preface, I don't really get embarrassed.
We noticed.
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Shame is supposed to be the feeling of failure.
In Adam and Eve's specific case, the shame that they felt was being unable to live up to God's plan for them (because they ate the apple God told them not to, but more broadly because humans ultimately can't live up to God's absolute goodness.)
The reason they put on clothes after feeling shame for the first time is that they realized that their relationship with each other was based solely on lust. In a healthy marriage, there are other ways that the man and the woman should be providing for each other.
Due to the self esteem movement, people don't feel enough shame today. People with fake service dogs, for example, ought to be ashamed. Most of the people we're discussing in the Garage ought to be ashamed. Or the Driving WTFs topic. The world would be a better place if we had more shame, not less.
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Do you really only understand shame at an academic level, and don't feel it? I guess this gets personal/Lounge level quite quickly, but are you missing other 'normal' emotional responses (like empathy?) too?
The taboo around nudity is all about sex. (The bits of you that you aren't supposed to expose in public are the bits associated with sex.) Sex is widely considered (across pretty much all cultures and times, afaik) something that needs to be controlled and so moral codes are wrapped around it. Even in the most permissive of modern liberal societies, sex is at the very least something for the private space. And that comes through to the morality of clothing because you aren't supposed to expose things that make people think about sex.
You see that to more or less extreme degrees - for example in much of Europe you can sunbathe topless (as a woman) or even naked, but you still can't walk down the street like that. In more conservative parts of the world women can't show any of their body, or sometimes their hair, or even their face.
Shame is what you (well, most people) feel when knowingly doing something 'bad' i.e. immoral according to your moral code. For most people that moral code comes from the society they live in. Some people will live by a different code, so they don't feel shame for some things others would consider bad, but they would still feel it for violating their own code (e.g. gangs violating all sorts of social norms, but having an internal code of conduct). And a few people just don't feel those emotions at all and have to learn appropriate behaviour academically rather than feeling it.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
Shame is supposed to be the feeling of failure.
Don't agree (that's disappointment). Shame is the feeling of knowingly doing something you're not supposed to. (Related to guilt which is the feeling of knowing you've done something which had a bad outcome - often a shameful action will have a bad outcome and result in guilt later.)
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@bobjanova said in What is shame?:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
Shame is supposed to be the feeling of failure.
Don't agree (that's disappointment). Shame is the feeling of knowingly doing something you're not supposed to. (Related to guilt which is the feeling of knowing you've done something which had a bad outcome - often a shameful action will have a bad outcome and result in guilt later.)
Disappointment is the feeling you feel when you perceive someone to have failed in a way that negatively impacts you.
Shame is the feeling you feel when you specifically fail. When you feel shame for "doing something you're not supposed to," that's because you're failing to live up to the law or the moral code that tells you what action you are supposed to have taken.
Guilt is shame in the specific case where your failure negatively impact someone else.
A baseball player who strikes out hasn't done anything wrong morally, but he can still feel ashamed that he was unsuccessful at living up to his own high standards and guilty that he let his teammates and fans down.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
the primary reason I wear clothes (besides chafing)
I think I'll try not to think about that.is that not doing so is highly frowned upon and would have legal and social repercussions that would negatively impact my personal quality of life.
Round here, one of the primary reasons for wearing clothing is in order to stay at a comfortable temperature. OK, where you are you might find avoiding sunburn to be a more useful feature.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
The reason they put on clothes after feeling shame for the first time is that they realized that their relationship with each other was based solely on lust. In a healthy marriage, there are other ways that the man and the woman should be providing for each other.
Not the main topic of this thread, but do you have any theological arguments for your interpretation? Reading all of that into Gen 3 seems very far-fetched to me.
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@dfdub especially since they were married before that (before the whole garden sequence began).
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@bobjanova said in What is shame?:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
Shame is supposed to be the feeling of failure.
Don't agree (that's disappointment). Shame is the feeling of knowingly doing something you're not supposed to. (Related to guilt which is the feeling of knowing you've done something which had a bad outcome - often a shameful action will have a bad outcome and result in guilt later.)
This is a bit different than the way these are presented in the church, and specifically in faith-based 12-step programs. Guilt is the knowledge of having done a bad thing; shame is the feeling of being a bad person.
Guilt is knowing that you did something you're not supposed to (specifically, violating one of God's laws or a human law, given that we are commanded to obey them, too, insofar as they do not conflict with God's laws); you are guilty of having committed that action. A feeling of guilt is an appropriate response to being guilty of something, at least up to the point you confess your sin and ask for forgiveness (and receive it, which is why it ceases to be appropriate at that point).
Shame is the feeling that you are a bad person for having done the bad thing. Shame is an inappropriate response in view of God's forgiveness, love, and acceptance of you, at least if you believe in Him and have accepted the forgiveness He offers. If you have accepted His forgiveness, He views you through the filter of that forgiveness as pure and spotless, and you should keep that in mind when looking at yourself. Of course, if you don't believe in Him, you are a bad person and should feel ashamed.
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@Benjamin-Hall Not to mention is that the passage is exclusively about the relationship between God and humans, not interpersonal relationships.
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@bobjanova said in What is shame?:
The taboo around nudity is all about sex. (The bits of you that you aren't supposed to expose in public are the bits associated with sex.) Sex is widely considered (across pretty much all cultures and times, afaik) something that needs to be controlled and so moral codes are wrapped around it. Even in the most permissive of modern liberal societies, sex is at the very least something for the private space. And that comes through to the morality of clothing because you aren't supposed to expose things that make people think about sex.
Why do humans prefer to mate in private?
Yitzchak Ben Mocha, an anthropologist with Zürich University, has conducted a study of human procreation habits as part of an effort to understand why humans prefer to mate in private. In his paper published ...
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@HardwareGeek said in What is shame?:
Of course, if you
don'tbelieve in Him, you are a bad person and should feel ashamed.FTF
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@bobjanova said in What is shame?:
Do you really only understand shame at an academic level, and don't feel it? I guess this gets personal/Lounge level quite quickly, but are you missing other 'normal' emotional responses (like empathy?) too?
As someone that doesn't feel shame, I'll answer this. I do have empathy. I have most feelings, some rather powerful ones as well.
But I certainly feel less empathy now than I did when I was younger. But I also haven't felt blood lust in years now, so I'd say that is a nice counterbalance.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
they realized that their relationship with each other was based solely on lust.
That is a very interesting viewpoint. I don't recall the scriptures ever mentioning their relationship at that time as anything more than "we're together because you're literally a part of me".
I suppose it can be extrapolated that because they realized the were naked (as the phrase goes) that could be an aspect.
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@bobjanova said in What is shame?:
Do you really only understand shame at an academic level, and don't feel it? I guess this gets personal/Lounge level quite quickly, but are you missing other 'normal' emotional responses (like empathy?) too?
I am technically borderline psychopathic. 💃😘
You haven't been here for very long, but I have not hidden my quest for more realistic emotion whatsoever. More blatantly is the desire for lust, to be sure, but the rest are there to, for those paying attention. 😉
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@Carnage said in What is shame?:
But I also haven't felt blood lust in years now,
Yeah, with a few exceptions I think that's why I'm one of the mediators in the star Trek game I've started playing. Some of our members are super quick on the vengeance draw...
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Another way of interpreting the passage from Genesis is that Adam and Eve realized (because of the knowledge of good and evil they had gained) that they were naked (ie exposed) in the sight of God and that he knew their transgression. And they felt shame/guilt because of their sin and wanted to hide from his face (even though that's impossible). When instead, He wanted them to confess and repent. Some accounts have it as the serpent who suggests that they hide and reminds them that they're naked (and thus plants the seed of shame there).
And that's the lesson for all of us in that passage--God doesn't want us to (try, without chance of success) hide our sins and our guilt from Him. He already knows it. He wants us to face Him, to feel godly sorrow, and rely on the mercy and merits and grace of His Son to heal those self-inflicted wounds.
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@dfdub said in What is shame?:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
The reason they put on clothes after feeling shame for the first time is that they realized that their relationship with each other was based solely on lust. In a healthy marriage, there are other ways that the man and the woman should be providing for each other.
Not the main topic of this thread, but do you have any theological arguments for your interpretation? Reading all of that into Gen 3 seems very far-fetched to me.
Sure. My references are to The Catechism of the Catholic Church, with the link to the relevant part at https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM
Again, this is from the Catholic perspective, so if you're a member of a Protestant church or the LDS Church, your views on things I say "is" or "is supposed to" may vary. (Also, "man" means "mankind" and not "Adam" or "men but not women.")
For example, the story of creation presented in Gen 3 uses figurative language, but still represents an actual event where man turned against God by violating what would later be called the First Commandment ("I am the Lord you God. You shall have no other God's besides me".) (390 and 398).
After man committed the Original Sin, "The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination." (400)
But because God did not abandon man, man gained a responsibility to do battle with the Tempter. (409 and 410). And in various other parts of the Bible, the Lord articulates the responsibilities that men, women, and children have to their families.
Skipping forward to the modern definitions of the English words "shame" and "guilt", man should feel ashamed and guilty when he fails in his battle with the Tempter and commits personal sin because he failed in his obligation to avoid sin. Committing sin in a way that hurts his family is an example of how many can fail in his battle with the Tempter.
Based on how human nature works, some of those tensions that were newly introduced after the Fall of Man are that men and women are often distrustful of each other's motives. And, again based on human nature, if you newly learn that you can't trust someone, you become distrustful of actions they took in the past. (Similarly, if you become aware of a new rule that you should have followed in the past, you feel bad about your previous actions.)
Thus, after the Fall, Adam and Eve were distrustful of each other's pre-Fall actions and ashamed of their own.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
Sure. My references are to The Catechism of the Catholic Church, with the link to the relevant part at https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM
Again, this is from the Catholic perspectiveI actually grew up Catholic, but this is still the first time I see someone reading a mandate for intramarital chastity into that passage. And I honestly fail to see how your quote supports your interpretation, either:
The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.
This merely says that lust was created by the original sin, not that it had anything to do with Adam and Eve hiding in shame or that the moral of the story has anything to do with lust.
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@dfdub said in What is shame?:
I actually grew up Catholic, but this is still the first time I see someone reading a mandate for intramarital chastity into that passage.
Lust is a desire to use someone for your own sexual gratification, without regard for how it affects the other person.
Done correctly, sex within marriage builds the bonds of intimacy and actively benefits both partners. A man wanting to have sex with his wife for that reason is different than lust.
@dfdub said in What is shame?:
The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.
This merely says that lust was created by the original sin, not that it had anything to do with Adam and Eve hiding in shame or that the moral of the story has anything to do with lust.
It also says that their relationship going forward was subject to tensions, which we know from human nature includes being distrustful of each other's motives.
The moral of the story is that man's relationship with Creation was altered and corrupted going forward. Adam's relationship with Eve is just a special case of that.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
The moral of the story is that man's relationship with Creation was altered and corrupted going forward.
Now on that we agree.
Anyway, all I wanted to point out is that Gen 3 doesn't really say anything about interpersonal relationships or marriage. If you want to look for theological advice on that, you'll have to look elsewhere in the Bible. I wasn't trying to make a theological argument against your views on marriage - I just wanted to remark that you shoehorned completely unrelated topics into your interpretation of the story of the original sin.
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@dfdub said in What is shame?:
I wasn't trying to make a theological argument
Right right, I didn't want a theological discussion about this, it was only mentioned in OP because it's the fastest example I could think of to demonstrate my question.
Perhaps I should have been more did selective. 😊
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
Lust is a desire to use someone for your own sexual gratification, without regard for how it affects the other person.
Very interesting.
One of my forays into learning lust is to find the sexual aspect of every context. Maybe I'm on the wrong track? I suppose that means I don't really lust at all, for any potential sexual encounter I might desire to participate in I would be focused outward. A giver, rather than a taker, as it were...
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@dfdub said in What is shame?:
Anyway, all I wanted to point out is that Gen 3 doesn't really say anything about interpersonal relationships or marriage. If you want to look for theological advice on that, you'll have to look elsewhere in the Bible.
I think we can agree on this part too.
But if you read Genesis 3 in concert with all the other places the Bible warns us about sin, marriage, and relationships, it's obvious that Adam and Eve's heretofore blissful marital relationship was altered, just like their relationship with Creation.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
blissful marital relationship was altered
Right, right, but that's besides the point. My question, in religious parlance, is, what inspires shame in the natural man?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
Lust is a desire to use someone for your own sexual gratification, without regard for how it affects the other person.
Very interesting.
One of my forays into learning lust is to find the sexual aspect of every context. Maybe I'm on the wrong track? I suppose that means I don't really lust at all, for any potential sexual encounter I might desire to participate in I would be focused outward. A giver, rather than a taker, as it were...
I'm not sure what "learning lust" means. From my perspective, lust is inherently harmful for both parties in the relationship, and often for bystanders (children, other loved ones, another partner in a non-monogamous relationship etc.)
Also, in case you didn't notice that I'm quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you and I are coming from very different starting points on sex and morality.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
Also, in case you didn't notice that I'm quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you and I are coming from very different starting points on sex and morality.
Sure! But that's still beside the point in fact. 😉 the topic isn't really about sex. Or, at least, it wasn't supposed to be. It's just the easiest demonstrable topic that showcases my question.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear my wife and I just after each other, and acting on that lust brings us closer together
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We're getting too off topic, and, shocking as it may seem coming from me, I'd like to circle back in on the actual question:
@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
What am I missing here? What causes shame? And why is it shameful?
There are many things that are considered shameful. Why is it?
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@Dragoon said in What is shame?:
@bobjanova said in What is shame?:
The taboo around nudity is all about sex. (The bits of you that you aren't supposed to expose in public are the bits associated with sex.) Sex is widely considered (across pretty much all cultures and times, afaik) something that needs to be controlled and so moral codes are wrapped around it. Even in the most permissive of modern liberal societies, sex is at the very least something for the private space. And that comes through to the morality of clothing because you aren't supposed to expose things that make people think about sex.
Yitzchak Ben Mocha, an anthropologist with Zürich University, has conducted a study of human procreation habits as part of an effort to understand why humans prefer to mate in private. In his paper published ...
Paging @error & Co.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
blissful marital relationship was altered
Right, right, but that's besides the point. My question, in religious parlance, is, what inspires shame in the natural man?
The feeling of having not lived up to an obligation.
If you mean in a Russeau-ian state of nature sense "natural man," then they wouldn't feel shame because shame pre-supposes the existence of relationships that carry obligations.
But once you're beyond/rejecting of that sort of state of nature and you accept the existence of obligations, shame is the feeling of not meeting the obligation.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
We're getting too off topic, and, shocking as it may seem coming from me, I'd like to circle back in on the actual question:
@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
What am I missing here? What causes shame? And why is it shameful?
There are many things that are considered shameful. Why is it?
From a secular point of view, shame is the way that societies self-police. The sense of "people will like/trust me less if I do this" eventually becomes internalised to "I will like/trust myself less". You can break the conditioning if your head and heart disagree on what is shameful (e.g. raised where nudity is very shameful, decide intellectually that being naked in your own house is fine but have to keep reminding yourself that you're not doing anything wrong each time you catch sight of your naked self in a mirror) but it takes a lot of concerted effort
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
shame is the feeling of not meeting the obligation.
I see. So, I have another example of where I think shame should be applying. My step-siblings are extremely, shall we say, relaxed when it comes to doing chores in the house, such as dishes, cleaning table, trash, etc.
By this measure, they feel no shame for epicly failing to maintain the house, because they feel no obligation to participate in its upkeep?
I suppose this makes sense...
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@Jaloopa said in What is shame?:
You can break the conditioning if your head and heart disagree on what is shameful
Well considering my "heart" consists of a very complicated set of trained responses, I would think resolving such cognitive dissonance should be pretty easy for me, but I'm starting to understand why others might find it not so.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
shame is the feeling of not meeting the obligation.
I see. So, I have another example of where I think shame should be applying. My step-siblings are extremely, shall we say, relaxed when it comes to doing chores in the house, such as dishes, cleaning table, trash, etc.
By this measure, they feel no shame for epicly failing to maintain the house, because they feel no obligation to participate in its upkeep?
I suppose this makes sense...
To the extent that they actually don't feel shame for not participating in the household chores, that's true.
My assumption is that a more reasonable explanation is that they do feel shame, but that shame is insufficient motivation for them to actually alter their behavior.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
shame is insufficient motivation for them to actually alter their behavior.
Well that's really the only thing there to do so, as we're basically not allowed any real punitive actions against them and someone (usually the mom) will end up doing everything anyways.
It will be interesting to see what happens now that she's had pretty major surgery to fix her arm and she's basically bedridden for the next month or so.
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@HardwareGeek said in What is shame?:
Guilt is knowing that you did something you're not supposed to (specifically, violating one of God's laws or a human law, given that we are commanded to obey them, too, insofar as they do not conflict with God's laws); you are guilty of having committed that action. A feeling of guilt is an appropriate response to being guilty of something, at least up to the point you confess your sin and ask for forgiveness (and receive it, which is why it ceases to be appropriate at that point).
Shame is the feeling that you are a bad person for having done the bad thing. Shame is an inappropriate response in view of God's forgiveness, love, and acceptance of you, at least if you believe in Him and have accepted the forgiveness He offers. If you have accepted His forgiveness, He views you through the filter of that forgiveness as pure and spotless, and you should keep that in mind when looking at yourself. Of course, if you don't believe in Him, you are a bad person and should feel ashamed.The standard definition is that guilt is a personal feeling (or a feeling between you and God) that occurs when you have done something wrong, and shame is what you feel when other people find out that you have done something wrong. Shame is very much a social phenomenon, whereas guilt is rooted in personal morality.
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Beware, wall of text ahead...
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
shame is the feeling of not meeting the obligation.
I would disagree on that, to me that's more "guilt" than "shame."
This can be seen by the fact that you might feel shame for things that are not of your doing (so there is no obligation on your part), such as being publicly associated with someone doing weird things (e.g. a drunk friend or family member). There is no obligation on you, unless you stretch very much the idea of obligation to "you should have prevented that person from drinking" (but you may feel shame even though you just met them in the street and they're already drunk), or "you should prevent that person from acting weird, or from having the frame of mind that led them to drink" but really there isn't many moral, let alone legal, frameworks where anyone would feel you have any sort of obligation to do so (unless you consider that anyone not living up to whatever example/guidance you might provide them is a fault of your own, but that's crossing quite far into hubris there!).
Another example would be being the poorest one in a posh party, which some people might feel ashamed of, despite there being absolutely nothing you could have done about it in any way, and no obligation of any sort on you (apart again if you unreasonably stretch "obligation" to something like "somehow having managed to get as rich as those other people").
So I think the definition about obligation is actually probably the right one for "guilt."
But then why do we have rhetorical questions such as "aren't you ashamed of [whatever]?" ([whatever] usually being something you should have done/not done, so there is an obligation here), when from what I said those questions should rather be "don't you feel guilty for [whatever]?"
It could be that language evolved such that the vernacular expression doesn't really match the meaning of the word. But my understanding is that "guilt" is more about what you did, and "shame" what others think of you for having done it. You might feel guilt for not having done your homework (you should have done it), but not be ashamed of it ("yeah, I know I should have, but I don't give a fuck about it"), in part for example because it fits the ethos of your group of friends. Conversely in the drunk-friend example, you may feel shame ("come on, man, stop doing that, you're embarrassing me, passers-by are looking at us") without feeling guilt ("it's not my problem that he got drunk"). The main difference to me seems to be that guilt is something you might feel outside of any social framework (Robinson Crusoe on his island may feel guilty of not having kept his house clean), whereas shame can only exist in a society (he probably wouldn't feel shame -- or maybe shame in regard to his God, but that's still an external entity).
So guilt is about you, shame is about other the others see you (or you think they do). The examples above about feeling shame when there is definitely no fault of yours show that, well, there doesn't seem to be any fault of yours. But in both cases (and I would argue all cases), shame happens when you don't fit with the others. I don't think you can really feel shame for doing the same as everyone. If no-one in the class has done their homework, you may all feel guilty, and maybe some of you felt ashamed when going to school, but likely as soon as you realise that everyone did the same, some of your shame will go away (but not your guilt!) because you're no longer different from the others. You felt shame for only as long as you thought you would be (one of) the only one not having done your homework.
Which would lead me to a definition that's very similar to what several other people said here: shame is what you feel when [you think that] other people notice that you're [unwillingly] not following social conventions.
So "aren't you ashamed of [whatever]?" really means "don't you feel that society frowns upon you for [whatever]?" rather than "don't you feel that you have not fulfilled your obligation?" And in fact a typical conversation leading to it might be "do you accept that you've done X? And that it was not what you should have done?" which is the guilt part, before leading onto the shame part that shifts back things from the person having done the thing, to how those around them perceives them.
Although I'm ESL, so keep in mind that I might attach to the English words the meaning of the corresponding word/concept in my native language, which might be slightly different...
@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
By this measure, they feel no shame for epicly failing to maintain the house, because they feel no obligation to participate in its upkeep?
I think properly if it's really that they don't think they should do it, then they feel no guilt about it (or, as @GuyWhoKilledBear accurately said, not enough guilt to alter their behaviour). Changing (or reinforcing) that would first need to make it clear that they do have an obligation, such that they do feel guilty for not doing it.
That might still not be enough though, and they may feel that not doing doesn't matter. This would be where they feel no (or not enough) shame about it. "Yeah I should have done it, but who cares?" (notice how the rhetorical "who cares?" refers to other people, whereas "I should have done it" only refers to themselves ... though "I don't care" could also be used, but I understand it as "you may care, but I don't", which still contains the same idea)
If you want them to feel shame, then it's for the society around them (the household) to make it clear that they are seen as "inferior" (morally) for not following the social norms. If they don't feel that how they're perceived by others is negatively impacted, then they likely aren't ashamed. Of course they need to actually care about how others see them, which depends on their natural personality (some are very attuned to what others around them feel/think, some don't care) and their relationship with the "others" (in the drunk-friend example, most people would probably feel less ashamed walking in a foreign city than in their own neighbourhood where they may meet people they know).
Compounding guilt and shame speaks to both the rational and the social parts of ourselves, so the combination of the two is more likely to motivate someone to change than any of the two alone. But of course how much they will feel each of the two very much depends on the intellectual/emotional state of mind of everyone.
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@remi said in What is shame?:
If they don't feel that how they're perceived by others is negatively impacted, then they likely aren't ashamed.
Yeah. In this specific example, they don't seem to care, with the added whammy of "someone else's problem" since they're not always present and maintain the mantra "well I wasn't here for that, why should I have to clean up for something I didn't do?".
You wouldn't believe how much grief I get for daring \to suggest that *gasp* they should take their clothes with them when they come out of the shower instead of leaving them on the floor. I mean, what the fuck? It's literally directly on the route (clothes hamper being right next to the bedroom door) so it's not like there's any amount of inconvenience at all... Except maybe doing the horrifying act of carrying half a pound of material.
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@remi said in What is shame?:
So "aren't you ashamed of [whatever]?" really means "don't you feel that society frowns upon you for [whatever]?" rather than "don't you feel that you have not fulfilled your obligation?" And in fact a typical conversation leading to it might be "do you accept that you've done X? And that it was not what you should have done?" which is the guilt part, before leading onto the shame part that shifts back things from the person having done the thing, to how those around them perceives them.
I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that society generally tries to instill in its members an obligation to refrain from doing things society frowns upon.
You pointed this out in the abbreviation text in your "shame is the feeling you feel when you're not following social conventions" definition, but the important part is that YOU feel that you're transgressing, not that a third party necessarily recognizes your actions as a transgression. (Because people feel ashamed of things that aren't their fault, right?)
What of the baseball player who strikes out in a key at-bat, and his team loses the game as a result? He doesn't have a moral obligation to hit a home run, and he hasn't violated a social convention (because most of the fans in the stands couldn't hit the home run either.)
Does he feel shame? I'd posit that he does, because he feels an obligation to his team and to his fans. It's not a moral obligation that we'd recognize as third party observers, but it's a higher standard to which he holds himself.
In any case, the English words "shame" and "guilt" are near synonyms, and any native-English speaker will spend more time thinking about whether there's a difference between the two while reading this topic than they have during the rest of their lives.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
In any case, the English words "shame" and "guilt" are near synonyms, and any native-English speaker will spend more time thinking about whether there's a difference between the two while reading this topic than they have during the rest of their lives.
Sometimes I ask the hard questions. 😘💃
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in What is shame?:
I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that society generally tries to instill in its members an obligation to refrain from doing things society frowns upon.
Yes, and I think that shame is the way people internalise that external pressure... But the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that shame necessarily exists only because of society (whereas guilt doesn't necessarily). There might, or might not, be an obligation of some sort, but there must be the belief that there is an external viewer for there to be shame.
You pointed this out in the abbreviation text in your "shame is the feeling you feel when you're not following social conventions" definition, but the important part is that YOU feel that you're transgressing, not that a third party necessarily recognizes your actions as a transgression. (Because people feel ashamed of things that aren't their fault, right?)
Absolutely, the feeling of transgression does come from you, but that feeling only exists because you think (believe, imagine...) that society will frown upon you. Your baseball player imagines that people will look down on him for having failed -- if he was alone (and no-one was recording his actions... and yet it wouldn't be for training but for a real match... ok, that's a totally unrealistic scenario!) I posit that he might feel guilty (even though, you're right, he's under no actual obligation to succeed), or maybe disappointed with himself, but not ashamed. Crusoe on his island cannot feel shame, I think. Or another example: you're clowning around (e.g. with friends) in a deserted street, you probably feel no shame, but as soon as you notice that actually someone was at their window looking at you, you may suddenly feel ashamed. It's only the knowledge of an external viewer that triggers shame. In this case it's somewhat similar to shyness, changing your behaviour because you know (think, believe, imagine...) that someone is looking at you, and I think in such cases shyness and shame are related (you're shy because you would feel shame if you didn't refrain from doing something, roughly?).
In any case, the English words "shame" and "guilt" are near synonyms, and any native-English speaker will spend more time thinking about whether there's a difference between the two while reading this topic than they have during the rest of their lives.
I don't think the language of the speaker makes a huge difference here, the same is probably true in most, if not all, languages. We're definitely splitting hairs...
I would say that @Tsaukpaetra asking this question does lend some weight to my views, since we know that he's not very... fluent (?) in human interactions, so it doesn't seem unexpected that he has difficulty understanding/feeling something if that something strongly relies on human interactions.
@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
Yeah. In this specific example, they don't seem to care, with the added whammy of "someone else's problem" since they're not always present and maintain the mantra "well I wasn't here for that, why should I have to clean up for something I didn't do?".
Using the distinction I made, I would say that if they truly think like this (as opposed to just saying it), then they feel no guilt about it -- and no shame either, obviously. Making them feel guilty would imply an authority figure making it clear that it's their responsibility to do those things. Making them ashamed would imply people they care about making it clear that they will be seen as morally inferior for not doing it.
Using a very stereotypical sexist patriarchist caricatural stereotype (can I add any more qualifiers to that...?), the Father menacing them of being whipped if they don't do it might make them feel guilty about it, while the Mother weeping that they aren't good kids if they don't do it might make them feel ashamed.
Which of the two would work best depends on their relationship with the authority/caring figure, and their individual character...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in What is shame?:
they feel no shame for epicly failing to maintain the house, because they feel no obligation to participate in its upkeep?
I’d say so. You can’t feel ashamed about something you don’t give a fuck about — exactly because you don’t give a fuck about it. If you do care, and you feel your performance has not been up to snuff (especially as you imagine other people will see it), that usually leads to feeling ashamed about it.
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Shame (and also guilt) is the emotional equivalent to what we call "pain" in the realm of physical sensations. It's a very important signal to let you know that something is wrong and you need to take action to fix it before it causes further harm to you.
