Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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@M_Adams said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
And to reinject some history here. This isn't Chinsa's first rodeo in re cover-ups about outbreaks.
I believe this is at least the third incident (SARS, H1N1, and now COVID-19).The middle east maybe a hotbed of military style terrorism, but China is shaping up to be the hotbed of biological terrorism (sic).
maybe so, but judging by Western reactions, my conviction is that no society on Earth was prepared to such an event and even now we can see people in this very forum saying that our reaction is overzealous and proof of the "compassion we have towards our elders". That is not the case and I believe that this pandemic will be a huge lesson for everybody in general.
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
because I don't believe this shit would have turned out differently anywhere else in the world.
If we are to believe that, then it means that you don't think that quarantine or social distancing would make any difference. Which is clearly wrong. Chinese suppression and lying cost the world at least a month, even if you refuse to see the obvious.
One week after the lockdown in Wuhan, the whole of Europe was still trading with China.
Trading is not the same as passenger travel. Like all the Chinese living in Italy going home for Lunar New Year and then coming back.
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@M_Adams said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
And to reinject some history here. This isn't Chinsa's first rodeo in re cover-ups about outbreaks.
I believe this is at least the third incident (SARS, H1N1, and now COVID-19).The middle east maybe a hotbed of military style terrorism, but China is shaping up to be the hotbed of biological terrorism (sic).
maybe so, but judging by Western reactions, my conviction is that no society on Earth was prepared to such an event and even now we can see people in this very forum saying that our reaction is overzealous and proof of the "compassion we have towards our elders". That is not the case and I believe that this pandemic will be a huge lesson for everybody in general.That's true, that no one was prepared for how significant this is and how it's changing things. But what if we'd started a month earlier than we did? What if China had done their thing a month earlier? How about we implement all your recommendations (interstate travel, etc.) but in a month? Do you think that would have the same result as doing it now? Doing it several weeks ago?
Stop sucking Chicom cock.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
because I don't believe this shit would have turned out differently anywhere else in the world.
If we are to believe that, then it means that you don't think that quarantine or social distancing would make any difference. Which is clearly wrong. Chinese suppression and lying cost the world at least a month, even if you refuse to see the obvious.
Chinese suppression and lying happened when the illness was still confined to a few cases mostly connected to the Wuhan seafood market. I very strongly doubt that this was the true cause of the international spread of the virus. Nobody would have taken it seriously (except for maybe a few countries issuing advisories "cautioning" against travel in the Hubei area). They didn't with a whole metropolis under fucking lockdown!
One week after the lockdown in Wuhan, the whole of Europe was still trading with China.
Trading is not the same as passenger travel. Like all the Chinese living in Italy going home for Lunar New Year and then coming back.
See, this is ignorant. I happen to have a Chinese student (as in, Chinese from China). She went there for the Lunar New Year and came back two weeks late because she (and her family) observed two weeks quarantine there in China, despite coming from a region which is 3 000 km away from Hubei and not going out much. And when they came back, they observed another two weeks' quarantine. And they did so out of choice, not obligation, as did presumably most of their fellow Chinese, because the fear was real and the idea of coming to Italy and spread the illness over here would have meant social suicide for the whole ethnicity. (And when I say "stop trading", I also meant travel). Again, there have been very few cases of Covid-19 linked to Chinese people returning (or coming) from China.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@M_Adams said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
And to reinject some history here. This isn't Chinsa's first rodeo in re cover-ups about outbreaks.
I believe this is at least the third incident (SARS, H1N1, and now COVID-19).The middle east maybe a hotbed of military style terrorism, but China is shaping up to be the hotbed of biological terrorism (sic).
maybe so, but judging by Western reactions, my conviction is that no society on Earth was prepared to such an event and even now we can see people in this very forum saying that our reaction is overzealous and proof of the "compassion we have towards our elders". That is not the case and I believe that this pandemic will be a huge lesson for everybody in general.That's true, that no one was prepared for how significant this is and how it's changing things. But what if we'd started a month earlier than we did? What if China had done their thing a month earlier? How about we implement all your recommendations (interstate travel, etc.) but in a month? Do you think that would have the same result as doing it now? Doing it several weeks ago?
My belief is that we're only doing this stuff because it got so bad. If it hadn't got so bad, then I strongly doubt much would have been done. (Otherwise we would have seen bans on European travel by the US much, much earlier, for instance). So yes, at most we would have gained a month or so but shit would have unravelled in the exact same way because we fucked up (and keep fucking up) collectively.
Stop sucking Chicom cock.
See, @Rhywden is not wrong when he says that you do garagey shit outside of the garage. I'm not taking part in the Garage thread because frankly I have no desire to, and I'd like it if you kept it that way. Thank you.
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Folks... we already have a "Covid19 shouting match" thread. I don't think we really need another one.
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
even now we can see people in this very forum saying that our reaction is overzealous
andor proof of the "compassion we have towards our elders".I trust your error was a simple mistake.
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@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
You certainly have a point, and at a time when I would visit skanky bars I would occasionally make the judgment call that my crotch was cleaner than the sink and not wash my hands.
The problem in such situations is the urge to clean your hands before you touch your crotch. An unsolvable dilemma.
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I happen to have a Chinese student (as in, Chinese from China). She went there for the Lunar New Year and came back two weeks late because she (and her family) observed two weeks quarantine there in China, despite coming from a region which is 3 000 km away from Hubei and not going out much. And when they came back, they observed another two weeks' quarantine. And they did so out of choice, not obligation, as did presumably most of their fellow Chinese, because the fear was real and the idea of coming to Italy and spread the illness over here would have meant social suicide for the whole ethnicity.
I can anecdotally confirm that. Chinese expats here took COVID-19 extremely seriously (as in, locked themselves in their apartments) long before any politician or native citizen even started to think about restriction on public life. Some of us laughed at their reactions just a few weeks ago. Nobody's laughing now.
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@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I depend on having a few hours a week alone
I would feel exhausted if I cannot have a few hours a day alone.
If your house is full of people and you can't find a quiet corner to hide yourself in, maybe get a noise-cancelling headset and a book to pretend you're alone can help.
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@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
But are masks and gloves effective?
Masks can be effective if everyone wears them. They (except those N95 ones if wore properly) can effectively prevent the droplet from your sneeze and cough being sprayed in the air, hence limiting the distance the droplets can travel, thus reduce the rate of spread.
This is especially important when you're fighting against a virus that can spread asymptotic (and German research discovered higher concentration of virus in those asymptotic victims then those already have cough or fever, implying they're more infective when still in asymptotic stage).
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@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Given how I've seen them being used, I'd say that gloves are almost always counterproductive - unless you're deliberately using them to give supermarket customers a false sense of proper hygiene. When people use their hands, at least they remember to occasionally wash them and think about what they touch.
I'm not one for regulations but I would be all for a federal requirement that restrooms doors open outward from the inside so that no one has to touch door handles when leaving restrooms.
Or install that button on emergency room doors where you kick the button and the door opens automatically.
Or just make it single room toilet that has sink (like those toilet for disabled people), after you press the water button from the sink, the water will run for 30 seconds then open the door, so unless you're asshole that won't wash your hands for whatever reason, you're wash your hands and hopefully wash longer than what would originally be.
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@cheong said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
But are masks and gloves effective?
Masks can be effective if everyone wears them.
I believe that, due to the current scarcity of masks (I'm assuming surgical masks, as FP2/FP3 masks are even more scarce), it would be better for no "laymen" to wear them. Those masks are only effective (somewhat) in preventing the infected from spreading the virus, and are arguably worse for the healthy because they tend to trap everything. So at the moment it would be best to save those masks for the ill, for those who have lots of social contact such as clerks and shop assistants, for carers and possibly for medical staff (who, unfortunately, have a higher risk of contracting the disease and of spreading it to other people; on the other hand there at least here in Italy we are separating Covid-19 staff from other staff).
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Dude, covering for a brutal dictatorship's lies is ugly. Also, Taiwan thought there was:
Taiwan says WHO failed to act on coronavirus transmission warningWe (not only Taiwan, but people in Hong Kong) know that if there are warning from multiple doctors from a single city being silenced very quickly, there is high chance that "This could be real".
If no pressure from officials "high above", the network police usually won't act too quickly to words from professionals, especially when the initial "whistleblowing" was among the medical professional circles only.
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@Karla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
OH yeah, dude.
I don't have issues. Just take a half step back. No weird dancing required.
Sorry for those with a low flow rate,...
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
So if you have to grab the door handle it is substantially similar to grabbing the crotch of several hundred people who visited that restroom recently.
The real danger isn't their crotch but their ass, if they took a dump.
I was getting kinda excited until you reminded me about that. Fucking cloacas.
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@JBert said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, this reminds me that the original timing of the automatic lights was incredibly stupid.
We have just 2 toilets in the space where I'm at and those are completely closed stalls (3 brick walls and a door). Each one has its own automatic light.
The electrician who installed the light in the left one must have not bothered to test it at all. You entered, you locked the door, turned around and CLICK - no more light. Wonderful.
I am well practiced in the art of blind shitting.
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@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
You certainly have a point, and at a time when I would visit skanky bars I would occasionally make the judgment call that my crotch was cleaner than the sink and not wash my hands.
The problem in such situations is the urge to clean your hands before you touch your crotch. An unsolvable dilemma.
I have no such urges..
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@boomzilla
How can that table contain both Germany, France and UK AND EU?edit: and Italy, Spain and Belgium. So is their EU Luxembourg, Portugal, Greece, Denmark and Eastern Europe or something? Sorry Poland, Hungary and Austria you're not important enough
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@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Chips, peanuts, pub mix, etc.
Pipi-nootjes! Or piss nuts ...
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@Rhywden
Hmmm I think mythbusters did something along those lines too
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I guess we'll see what Elon can do.
Not much that'd have an impact, unless he's spinning up a chemical plant.
My God, Its Full of Stars
<p>I'm hearing&nbsp;<em>anecdotal&nbsp;</em>reports that material numbers of hospitals are starting to&nbsp;<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>stockpile and
Out of the 61 people who had "assisted breathing" by machine three survived. That's a 4.9% survival rate.
In fact free flow oxygen via nasal cannula didn't do well either. Only one in five persons who had that intervention survived. The other 80% are dead.
May I remind you that supplemental oxygen via cannula does not require a hospital; we do that all the time for people with COPD and such via either concentrator or bottle at lower levels. Yet if you get there, 80% of the time you die.
On the other hand:
I'm hearing anecdotal reports that material numbers of hospitals are starting to stockpile and use hydroxychloroquine as part of their Covid-19 response protocols.
Because:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/therapeutic-options.html
Based upon limited in-vitro and anecdotal data, chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine are currently recommended for treatment of hospitalized COVID-19 patients in several countries.
Apparently antiviral drugs increase your odds a lot more than a ventilator does. Especially if you get them early.
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@Luhmann said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden
Hmmm I think mythbusters did something along those lines tooYeah, they did the "Sneeze into hand, elbow or handkerchief?"
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@acrow
I heard there are a lot of patients with side effects and just a slight positive effect. So it's no silver bullet.
In any case, the department of health has apparently stockpiled this stuff (or seized it) and is controlling distribution to the hospitals with a fixed price and no patient cost. So there seems to be serious interest although it seems to fly a bit under the radar.
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@Luhmann Of course. It's an antiviral. Meaning, it slows the replication of the virus, but can not reverse the damage. If you took one right after getting infected, it'd have the greatest effect. Administering one after someone's already showing symptoms has much less effect. Administering to someone on a ventilator has little to no effect.
Problem is, they're not accepted officially for treating corona. So in the U.S. they were only administered if the patient was deemed a terminal case (i.e. in the ventilator). Until now.
But if the Market Ticker guy was correct (and
to check), ventilator saves 5% of cases that don't survive without one. So... the if the drug saves an additional 5%, then you've doubled your elderly survivors!Edit: saver -> saves
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
See, @Rhywden is not wrong when he says that you do garagey shit outside of the garage. I'm not taking part in the Garage thread because frankly I have no desire to, and I'd like it if you kept it that way. Thank you.
Then at least stop apologizing for China's actions while criticizing others for not doing enough.
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@Luhmann said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla
How can that table contain both Germany, France and UK AND EU?edit: and Italy, Spain and Belgium. So is their EU Luxembourg, Portugal, Greece, Denmark and Eastern Europe or something? Sorry Poland, Hungary and Austria you're not important enough
I guess each country sends money and the EU also sends money from the funds they get from members?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
You certainly have a point, and at a time when I would visit skanky bars I would occasionally make the judgment call that my crotch was cleaner than the sink and not wash my hands.
The problem in such situations is the urge to clean your hands before you touch your crotch. An unsolvable dilemma.
I have no such urges..
Well... you're not married either, if memory serves...
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Not sure if this has been asked in this thread yet or not:
Since only a small percentage of people die from infection, and since the people at higher risk of death can generally be identified, does it make more sense to isolate the whole world, or would it make more sense just to isolate the vulnerable?
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@jinpa The way I see it, if you don't isolate the whole world it becomes harder to isolate the vulnerable, as the likelihood of infecting someone close to the vulnerable increases.
Besides, we are sort of doing that already. The most vulnerable become infected and wind up in hospitals.
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@Zecc said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa The way I see it, if you don't isolate the whole world it becomes harder to isolate the vulnerable, as the likelihood of infecting someone close to the vulnerable increases.
Besides, we are sort of doing that already. The most vulnerable become infected and wind up in hospitals.
Were the ones who became infected taking extra measures (e.g. masks, gloves when around others) or not? Or were they just doing what everyone else did?
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Well... you're not married either, if memory serves...
He's married to science. Like Tesla! No, not those toy cars. The Serbian guy. No, not that Serbian guy.
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@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Not sure if this has been asked in this thread yet or not:
Since only a small percentage of people die from infection, and since the people at higher risk of death can generally be identified, does it make more sense to isolate the whole world, or would it make more sense just to isolate the vulnerable?
Homes for the elderly and infirm no longer allow visitors. I'm not entirely sure on hospitals (more limited than usual or not at all).
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@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Were the ones who became infected taking extra measures (e.g. masks, gloves when around others) or not? Or were they just doing what everyone else did?
No idea. I don't know any of them, and honestly I haven't been following the news too closely.
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@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Not sure if this has been asked in this thread yet or not:
Since only a small percentage of people die from infection, and since the people at higher risk of death can generally be identified, does it make more sense to isolate the whole world, or would it make more sense just to isolate the vulnerable?
Homes for the elderly and infirm no longer allow visitors. I'm not entirely sure on hospitals (more limited than usual or not at all).
Hospitals here have announced that they've change visiting policies. I remember during the Swine Flu days they did that, too. My wife was having a procedure done and I couldn't go back to see her because I had our two year old son with us and they weren't allowing kids that young back into patient rooms.
He actually did get the swine flu later that summer although it wasn't severe at all. No one else in the house ever showed any symptoms from it.
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@boomzilla mate, do you realise that whatever China did is not an excuse for other countries who have had the fucking privilege of not being first (that is why I'm lenient with my country honestly, being the first Western country to be hit, and badly too) to keep on fucking up? That would be childish! "But he started it!".
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Here's a set of data I'd like to see from more places on a regular basis:
Number of tests run
Number of tests positiveFlorida does it, and from what I can tell from other states, our positive test result / total tests ratio is right about with others at ~10%. If this starts spiking, infection is spreading fast. If it's stable, the increase in cases is due mostly to an increase in tests. Once the numerator stops going up and stays stable, we're past the peak.
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla mate, do you realise that whatever China did is not an excuse for other countries who have had the fucking privilege of not being first (that is why I'm lenient with my country honestly, being the first Western country to be hit, and badly too) to keep on fucking up? That would be childish! "But he started it!".
The thought had never occurred to me at all, actually, just like it doesn't seem to have occurred to you that we shouldn't ignore or even excuse malfeasance, which can only encourage it in the future. Again, this isn't a case of, "Didn't catch on quick enough." It's affirmative action to prevent the rest of us from catching on (in addition to not protecting their own citizens earlier, of course).
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@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yeah, when all of this is over, hopefully some people have learned at least a bit about proper hygiene.
You're adorable.
My main hope from all this is people stay home when they're sick.
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@mikehurley said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
My main hope from all this is people stay home when they're sick.
Perhaps the long-term consequence will be that programming jobs will increasingly go to foreign candidates, since employers will have been forced to gain experience in having their programmers telework full-time.
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I'm here because I'm an outdoor billboard.
What about you, what are you doing outside?
Alltogetherapart against coronavirus
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@Zecc
You'll never walk alone 
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@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@dcon You're aiming for the Quotes Out Of Context thread.
Not aiming. More like pointing a shotgun in the general direction.
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@Karla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Office lights are motion also but they don't turn off until a long time of lack of motion. Only happens if I stay at work late.
Last place I worked, the lights in the snack area turned off after about 1 (maybe 2) minutes. You'd often see 2 people talking in the "dark". (not really dark because of all the windows and surrounding lights) I always wondered how much higher total lifetime cost was because of the bulbs turning on/off so often vs electricity saved...
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
If it's stable, the increase in cases is due mostly to an increase in tests.
That's a bit of a stretch. More likely, it'd mean that the virus is spreading at a constant rate, which would mean the current measures are working as intended.
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@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
If it's stable, the increase in cases is due mostly to an increase in tests.
That's a bit of a stretch. More likely, it'd mean that the virus is spreading at a constant rate, which would mean the current measures are working as intended.
Constant rate and "increase due to increase in tests" are basically the same thing in terms of severity. It means it's not spreading exponentially--that either we're picking up more of them because we're testing more (those people were already infected) or because R0 ~ 1. I'd say the second is better than the first, personally. The second means that we're at the peak of the (current) infection curve, minus any further flare-ups. So I was being pessimistic in assuming that we're on the left side of the curve, in the exponential growth part.
At least if I'm thinking about this right, which is always doubtful.
But I did make another mistake. If the numerator (total positive cases) stops going up, we're done with the infection. Because this is a strictly-increasing, integrated measurement. Basically a running total.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The second means that we're at the peak of the (current) infection curve
Only if it stays the same, i.e. if no bans are lifted and the public doesn't change its behavior.
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@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The second means that we're at the peak of the (current) infection curve
Only if it stays the same, i.e. if no bans are lifted and the public doesn't change its behavior.
Hence the "current" word there. Local maximum of the derivative (spread rate), not global maximum. But if we can shove R0 below 1 for a while, it should die off exponentially as well. That's the beauty of exponential curves.
news:
TSA Admits Liquid Ban Is Security Theater
