Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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In most cases, it just blocks or hides cookie related pop-ups.
Installing right now!
When it's needed for the website to work properly, it will automatically accept the cookie policy for you
Nevermind, I'll stick to uBlock and reading mode.
BTW anyone knows of any Firefox extension that disables the
filter
CSS attribute entirely?
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The study looked at 52,297 Omicron cases and 16,982 Delta cases that occurred across Southern California between November 30 and January 1.
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The study, which was conducted by Kaiser Permanente Southern California but has not yet been peer-reviewed, also showed that people with Omicron infections are 74% less likely to need to be placed in the intensive care unit (ICU). And the study found a 53% reduction in risk of being hospitalized, said Rochelle Walensky, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
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@boomzilla I've seen (tweets about) similar reports of reduced lethality in the UK. Which is good, or would be if it wasn't for the extreme infectiousness of omicron. Oh well…
Also, watch out for “deltacron”, a cross between delta and omicron with the worst aspects of both; yes, both high infectiousness and high rate of complications. Apparently, this was detected in Cyprus, but I wouldn't be surprised at it turning up elsewhere too. (Variant recombination is definitely a thing in viruses, so this development is very unsurprising.)
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, watch out for “deltacron”, a cross between delta and omicron with the worst aspects of both; yes, both high infectiousness and high rate of complications. Apparently, this was detected in Cyprus, but I wouldn't be surprised at it turning up elsewhere too.
Didn't this turn out to be an error? I think it was posted here somewhere.
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If there's one thing I learned this pandemic: if something sounds like straight out of Sharknado - and this "deltacron" definitely qualifies - it's most likely a nothingburger.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla I've seen (tweets about) similar reports of reduced lethality in the UK. Which is good, or would be if it wasn't for the extreme infectiousness of omicron. Oh well…
Still very good.
Also, watch out for “deltacron”, a cross between delta and omicron with the worst aspects of both; yes, both high infectiousness and high rate of complications. Apparently, this was detected in Cyprus, but I wouldn't be surprised at it turning up elsewhere too. (Variant recombination is definitely a thing in viruses, so this development is very unsurprising.)
Maybe, but I've also heard that they now believe that was a laboratory error.
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@loopback0 said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, watch out for “deltacron”, a cross between delta and omicron with the worst aspects of both; yes, both high infectiousness and high rate of complications. Apparently, this was detected in Cyprus, but I wouldn't be surprised at it turning up elsewhere too.
Didn't this turn out to be an error? I think it was posted here somewhere.
Yeah, this was the result of a contaminated sample, not an actual virus that people had.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla I've seen (tweets about) similar reports of reduced lethality in the UK.
It feels like the data about Omicron w.r.t. reduced severity is still on shaky grounds, but so far most data points in the same direction and it's significance is beginning to strengthen.
The first two UK studies said "20% less severe" and "2/3rds less severe", if I remember correctly. While both good news, the spread between those two numbers was twice as large as the signal in the first, so I figured there's a huge amount of uncertainty in that.@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Which is good, or would be if it wasn't for the extreme infectiousness of omicron.
Low severity and high infectiousness might turn out to be advantageous for us compared to low severity and low infectiousness, as high infectiousness reduces the selection pressure for other mutations to spread. At least I think it might. Of course, a huge number of cases means a huge potential for new variants to arise, but they will only become dominant if they have an advantage in how they spread.
I hear some virologists caution "but wait, there's more" and this won't be the last variant we'll see. But if what's currently said about Omicron turns out to be correct, I am beginning to be cautiously optimistic we're going into the endemic phase in the next few months.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Low severity and high infectiousness might turn out to be advantageous for us compared to low severity and low infectiousness, as high infectiousness reduces the selection pressure for other mutations to spread.
Yep. Viruses tend to evolve to produce less severe disease. This is exactly what we needed to happen to get COVID down to another cold / flu.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
This is exactly what we needed to happen to get COVID down to another cold / flu.
Now the problem is that panic unfortunately does not have any easy exit strategy, so many politicians can be expected to try all they can to keep it going despite it making less and less sense.
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
This is exactly what we needed to happen to get COVID down to another cold / flu.
Now the problem is that panic unfortunately does not have any easy exit strategy, so many politicians can be expected to try all they can to keep it going despite it making less and less sense.
That's why it's important to remind the politicians where their powers come from every once in a while.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
This is exactly what we needed to happen to get COVID down to another cold / flu.
Now the problem is that panic unfortunately does not have any easy exit strategy, so many politicians can be expected to try all they can to keep it going despite it making less and less sense.
That's why it's important to remind the politicians where their powers come from every once in a while.
Lobbyists?
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
This is exactly what we needed to happen to get COVID down to another cold / flu.
Now the problem is that panic unfortunately does not have any easy exit strategy, so many politicians can be expected to try all they can to keep it going despite it making less and less sense.
That's why it's important to remind the politicians where their powers come from every once in a while.
Problem is that the scaremongers are still the loudest.
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
This is exactly what we needed to happen to get COVID down to another cold / flu.
Now the problem is that panic unfortunately does not have any easy exit strategy, so many politicians can be expected to try all they can to keep it going despite it making less and less sense.
Don't forget that they need to keep the pandemic-specific economy going, too. So many mask resellers owned by the minister's relative's nephew's something or other.
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
This is exactly what we needed to happen to get COVID down to another cold / flu.
Now the problem is that panic unfortunately does not have any easy exit strategy, so many politicians can be expected to try all they can to keep it going despite it making less and less sense.
That's why it's important to remind the politicians where their powers come from every once in a while.
Lobbyists?
The biggest unified group of financial backers, by domestic revenue. And since manufacturing was offshored, that's probably Facebook et.al..
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@lolwhat Where's this from?
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@lolwhat what would you need 7 masks for if you were isolating? And if you weren't literally isolating, how is 7 masks enough for anything? It won't even last the 2 weeks necessary to flatten the curve.
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@Gąska To protect you from yourself!
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@Gąska After you're out of full isolation, you can wear one on your way to the supermarket to buy more.
You may also need one when you have to go out to get tested.
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- Thou shalt wear thine mask when attending upon the preachings of Fauci, bless His Name.
- Thou shalt prove thine virtue by always wearing masks overlaid 2 by 2.
- Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of horse deworming.
It's like a perfect Three Commandments starter kit, even has that little bit of temptation so you can prove that you're really worthy of His Fauciness.
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@izzion I wonder what's on the other stone tablet.
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@izzion I wonder what's on the other stone tablet.
Revealing the other tablet is definitely material for a different thread.
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@izzion said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Thou shalt prove thine virtue by always wearing masks overlaid 2 by 2.
Two shall be the number of masks thou wear, and the number of thy masks shall be two. Three masks shalt thou not wear, neither wear thou one, excepting that thou then proceed to wear two.
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@izzion I wonder what's on the other stone tablet.
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Watching a perfectly normal YouTube video about D&D when suddenly
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
a perfectly normal YouTube video about D&D
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@Luhmann said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
a perfectly normal YouTube video about D&D
Presumably, it was "perfectly normal for YouTube videos about D&D".
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@lolwhat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
In other news cold fusion will be ready in 12 years, we have only 10 to stop global warming and bees may become extinct in 5.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
cold fusion will be ready in 12 years
Hey! No @Karla-triggering!
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@Zerosquare said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
cold fusion will be ready in 12 years
Hey! No @Karla-triggering!
I didn't say!!!!
In other works I did not say cold fusion [sic] would ready in 12 years.Why are you blaming
for its issues.?We are replacing it...too slow for my taste but .
EDIT: to be less aggressive.
And TA: I would have less of a problem if we were using modern ColdFusion.
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“Flu, of course, is very well known but RSV, and many other viruses that are not very well known to the public because the symptoms are similar to flu where we believe the world deserves the single annual booster that contains all those different vaccines in a single dose against flu, against RSV, against Covid with the right adaptation to the strains circulating that’s here, and that’s what we’re working towards,” [Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel] said.
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@lolwhat that would, actually, be great if they can make it happen. Of course, I'd expect this to go through a more normal testing process than the COVID vaccines did.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@lolwhat that would, actually, be great if they can make it happen. Of course, I'd expect this to go through a more normal testing process than the COVID vaccines did.
Why? I mean, it worked out fine for the COVID vaccines, didn't it?
We're so good at making 'em now, the new flu vaccine will be just as effective.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@lolwhat that would, actually, be great if they can make it happen. Of course, I'd expect this to go through a more normal testing process than the COVID vaccines did.
Why? I mean, it worked out fine for the COVID vaccines, didn't it?
It's my understanding that the big problem here is the way that immune systems deal with coronaviruses. It's not clear to me at all that there's anything specific about the mRNA stuff here. It basically just gives us a technology to create more targeted proteins.
It seems like it might have a lot of potential as a technology, as I think my comment said.
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@lolwhat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
“Flu, of course, is very well known but RSV, and many other viruses that are not very well known to the public because the symptoms are similar to flu where we believe the world deserves the single annual booster that contains all those different vaccines in a single dose against flu, against RSV, against Covid with the right adaptation to the strains circulating that’s here, and that’s what we’re working towards,” [Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel] said.
Translation:
"Seeing as covid psychosis may be nearing its end, we are working towards transforming it from current cult status into established religion, which through fear, authority and persecution of unvaxed will ensure our profit margins for decades to come"
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@lolwhat that would, actually, be great if they can make it happen. Of course, I'd expect this to go through a more normal testing process than the COVID vaccines did.
Why? I mean, it worked out fine for the COVID vaccines, didn't it?
It's my understanding that the big problem here is the way that immune systems deal with coronaviruses. It's not clear to me at all that there's anything specific about the mRNA stuff here. It basically just gives us a technology to create more targeted proteins.
It seems like it might have a lot of potential as a technology, as I think my comment said.
In a different world, sure. Though I seem to recall that flu viruses are no picnic, either - which is why our existing flu vaccines have had less than stellar results.
All this, however, is besides the point, because - as my esteemed compatriot rightly notes above - the point is more vaccine grift for Pfizer and Moderna, who are on a roll. So, no, you won't get a more "normal" testing process, because Lives Are At Stake (my grandmother died of flu complications all those years ago) and testing stuff costs money (not to mention the possibility of getting the Wrong Sort of result).
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It's my understanding that the big problem here is the way that immune systems deal with coronaviruses. It's not clear to me at all that there's anything specific about the mRNA stuff here. It basically just gives us a technology to create more targeted proteins.
Different types of vaccines target different parts of the immune system, which in turn is extremely complicated (because of course it is). The mRNA-based vaccines seem to target the part that has a relatively short retention time (a few months) while having a very high activation level to start with, whereas some of the other types have much longer retention even if lower initial activity levels.
Given that, I'd predict that an mRNA 'flu vaccine (once tested) will work great at preventing many people from getting one season's worth of infection, but will definitely need to be redone for the next winter. Pfizer will like that a lot.
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Downvote mine. There's like 10'000 threads with these kinds of arguments on the other side of that there garage door, I'd appreciate if we could keep the flames low on this one.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It's my understanding that the big problem here is the way that immune systems deal with coronaviruses. It's not clear to me at all that there's anything specific about the mRNA stuff here. It basically just gives us a technology to create more targeted proteins.
Different types of vaccines target different parts of the immune system, which in turn is extremely complicated (because of course it is). The mRNA-based vaccines seem to target the part that has a relatively short retention time (a few months) while having a very high activation level to start with, whereas some of the other types have much longer retention even if lower initial activity levels.
I assume that strictly depends on the proteins you are targeting and not the delivery mechanism (mRNA).
Given that, I'd predict that an mRNA 'flu vaccine (once tested) will work great at preventing many people from getting one season's worth of infection, but will definitely need to be redone for the next winter. Pfizer will like that a lot.
Which is nothing new. Today's flu vaccines are already only good for one winter.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@lolwhat that would, actually, be great if they can make it happen. Of course, I'd expect this to go through a more normal testing process than the COVID vaccines did.
Why? I mean, it worked out fine for the COVID vaccines, didn't it?
It's my understanding that the big problem here is the way that immune systems deal with coronaviruses. It's not clear to me at all that there's anything specific about the mRNA stuff here.
Partly the way immune system deals, or cannot deal, with coronaviruses, partly the way the virus can establish a very useful bridgehead in the mucous membrane before the immune system can react, and partly the choice of the dangerous spike protein as the only target when the internal proteins are also accessible to T-lymphocyte reaction (the study about cross-reactivity linked somewhere around here recently mentions them, but it's kinda obvious if you know how T-lymphocytes work).
But it's indeed not specific to the mRNA technology. The vector vaccines do the same thing for all practical purposes, and have all the same problems too.
It basically just gives us a technology to create more targeted proteins.
It's not more targeted, it's just simpler than modifying otherwise harmless viruses.
It seems like it might have a lot of potential as a technology, as I think my comment said.
I agree. The technology is an easier and slightly safer variant on the vector technology.
In a vector vaccine, mRNA for some protein of the target virus is added to another, otherwise mostly harmless, virus. Each of the vector vaccines use a different one, and even two different ones, one for the first and one for the second dose. Because immunity will also respond to the other parts of the virus that are incidental to how the vaccine is made and these need to differ in the second dose so only the response to the intended target is strengthened.
The mRNA technology just uses a lipoprotein particle as envelope and a chemical substitution in the nucleotide base to hide the mRNA from the non-specific defence instead of whatever proteins real viruses use to evade it.
So mRNA and vector vaccine using the same mRNA sequence are likely to behave similarly for most purposes, and the mRNA technology is simpler as you don't have to search for new suitable vectors. But they seem to have chosen the wrong target here – if there even is a good target in the coronavirus case.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I assume that strictly depends on the proteins you are targeting and not the delivery mechanism (mRNA).
I think it relates to exactly how the signalling to the immune system is done, whether the antigen recognition ends up being done mainly by antibodies or by the cell-mediated mechanisms. This is now heading rapidly into areas where I don't grok what's going on beyond “shit's complicated yo!”
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@ixvedeusi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Downvote mine. There's like 10'000 threads with these kinds of arguments on the other side of that there garage door, I'd appreciate if we could keep the flames low on this one.
Downvote mine. The purpose of the Garage isn't to protect you from hearing something that offends your delicate sensibilities, but is nevertheless likely to be both true and politically salient.
ETA: Congratulations. You are the first person I downvoted in all my years on this site.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
All this, however, is besides the point, because - as my esteemed compatriot rightly notes above - the point is more vaccine grift for Pfizer and Moderna, who are on a roll. So, no, you won't get a more "normal" testing process, because Lives Are At Stake (my grandmother died of flu complications all those years ago) and testing stuff costs money (not to mention the possibility of getting the Wrong Sort of result).
It's certainly possible, but given the existence of flu vaccines, it should be back to "normal." I guess I wouldn't be surprised at people trying to make a similar case, and maybe wouldn't be surprised for it to be officially accepted.
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@boomzilla That's pretty much the point. We already had this conversation: we should've seen better testing for the existing COVID vaccines, too. Maybe they'd actually be effective at stopping the pandemic.
That's not the world we're living in, though.
The point is that over the past couple of years we've ploughed past a number of psychological, social, and legal barriers, and it would be foolish to expect that people who stand to benefit from that will suddenly decide to jog back and rebuild them.
The only cure for a revolution is a counter-revolution. More likely: a different revolution entirely. You can't enter the same river twice.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
That's pretty much the point. We already had this conversation: we should've seen better testing for the existing COVID vaccines, too. Maybe they'd actually be effective at stopping the pandemic.
They'd still be the same vaccines. I suspect they're about as good as we can produce at this point (due to some of the difficulties discussed above). As to how the political aspects would have played out...I wouldn't even want to guess.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The purpose of the Garage isn't to protect you from hearing something that offends your delicate sensibilities
My point isn't protecting me from reading something that offends me but simply to avoid having this thread go the way of all those other threads, because they all go round in circles and are incredibly boring.
@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Congratulations. You are the first person I downvoted in all my years on this site.
Happy to be of service.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
We already had this conversation: we should've seen better testing for the existing COVID vaccines, too. Maybe they'd actually be effective at stopping the pandemic.
The fundamental problem is this question: How Long Should You Wait For Certainty? Waiting until you're 100% sure is very very likely to be waiting for far too long, resulting in a lot of otherwise-avoidable death and disablement. Then what level of uncertainty do you think it is acceptable to take a decision on?
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@dkf The problem is that "otherwise-avoidable death and disablement" sounds a like lot "we need to cut corners".
In fact, no, you don't need to cut corners. If you do cut corners, chances are good you'll wind up with something neither safe, nor effective.
The testing/approval procedure exists for a reason. It might not be a good reason, but in that case you need to make the argument for why this is so. If you can't make such an argument, except by appealing to emergency, you should stay silent and let people get on with it.
We know what happens when people get emotional, and go all in on stuff that's bound to work; it's stands to reason it must. We're living that scenario right now. Not one of the problems we are currently facing is in any way surprising. People were predicting that this was exactly what was gonna happen since early 2020.
Unfortunately, we lost.