Jeff'd Again
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Jeff'd Again:
@Zenith said in Jeff'd Again:
Forced obsolescence in particular is just a shortcut for people that are out of ideas and can't make a real argument for users to move from something that works.
Should talk to Apple about that...
I was really impressed with OSX Tiger but they've really lost their way since Jobs died.
If you ever want to feel worse about the direction of modern computing, watch that video where he's pitching the NeXT computer.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Jeff'd Again:
New iPad!
The New iPad is the name of the 2nd generation iPad, which is quite obsolete.
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@Zenith said in Jeff'd Again:
If you ever want to feel worse about the direction of modern computing, watch that video where he's pitching the NeXT computer.
Afaict NeXT had some nice touches, but it's not like his pitches weren't bald-faced lies.
The iPhone literally runs OS X!
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@topspin said in Jeff'd Again:
@Zenith said in Jeff'd Again:
If you ever want to feel worse about the direction of modern computing, watch that video where he's pitching the NeXT computer.
Afaict NeXT had some nice touches, but it's not like his pitches weren't bald-faced lies.
The iPhone literally runs OS X!Still better pitches than everybody else.
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@Zenith Apple keynote under Steve Jobs:
Apple keynote under Tim Apple:
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@hungrier said in Jeff'd Again:
@Zenith Apple keynote under Steve Jobs:
Apple keynote under Tim Apple:
Toby faire, I had the first gen iPhone shown at the top, and it also needed a headphone adapter (extension?) because the port was recessed into the body of the device and none of my headphone jacks could fit.
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@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
TL;DR -- considerably more than 4 years but Apple haters are gonna hate.
Officially the oldest device supported on iOS 13 is the iPhone 6s, which is from September 2015.
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@Vixen said in Jeff'd Again:
@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
TL;DR -- considerably more than 4 years but Apple haters are gonna hate.
PEARS RULE! APPLES DROOL!
Pears totally rule, but apples are okay, too, if the face is pretty
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@Zenith said in Jeff'd Again:
@topspin said in Jeff'd Again:
@Zenith said in Jeff'd Again:
If you ever want to feel worse about the direction of modern computing, watch that video where he's pitching the NeXT computer.
Afaict NeXT had some nice touches, but it's not like his pitches weren't bald-faced lies.
The iPhone literally runs OS X!Still better pitches than everybody else.
I didn't say they were bad, quite the opposite. He is famous for his RDF after all.
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@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
3rd party network you have no control over.
And the near-ubiquitous VPN that effectively makes that 3rd party network irrelevant (assuming, of course, there isn't a compromise on the VPN somewhere). Or, some form of tunneling, or other protective layer over the connection. You should never use it without protection, you never know what might happen if you don't.
@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
Yes you are, by supporting the argument that a public forum's continued support for IE somehow reduces overall security.
No. I am not. I don't give a shit about the argument at hand, I'm pointing out the point you made was wrong. It's called fact checking.
@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
by supporting the argument that a public forum's continued support for IE somehow reduces overall security.
And you're supporting that argument by making provably incorrect claims. Therefore you're arguing against yourself
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@sloosecannon said in Jeff'd Again:
And you're supporting that argument by making provably incorrect claims.
This is new?
..... huh.....
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@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
@topspin said in Jeff'd Again:
He is famous for his RDF after all.
I think it would be fair to say that he was famous for motivating engineers to do things right.
There is this anecdote when they brought him first iPod prototype and he was not impressed. He said "Make it smaller", and the engineers were like "Not possible". He angrily tossed it into aquarium which resulted in bubbles comming out of it and he said "See? there is still a lot of space in there. MAKE IT SMALLER!"
No need to remind you that iPod was a great success compared to many other attempts at portable music players (Sony, Microsoft, etc).
Reading stories like that is cathartic. I wouldn't want to be yelled at like that but I'd prefer it to having to hide my power level all the time.
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If I understand what @levicki is saying, it's that the browser is a security problem for the user alone. Shouldn't the server side be secured against any attack that a compromised browser could throw at it? When you really look at interaction over http, it's not rocket science. You're sending very well defined messages back and forth. A URL or series of delimited fields goes in and a binary stream comes out. As long as you're not just blindly trusting that browser (you know, "never trust the client" and all), the danger is almost entirely limited to the browser doing something stupid with what the server sends back.
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@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
compromised browser doesn't exist today
I'd accept shouldn't more than doesn't.
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@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
I will ask you again, if client is using TLS 1.2 for communication with a public forum, what does it matter whether they use IE11, Chrome, Firefox, or fucking Lynx?
I'll tell you again. This is not what I posted about. Fuck off.
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@Vixen said in Jeff'd Again:
@Zenith said in Jeff'd Again:
I believe that the core question is really what sort of developer you are. Are you trying to empower others or control them?
I myself only stand where I am because i stand on the shoulders of Giants. It therefore behooves me to assist others to stand on my shoulders so that we together are greater than the sum of our parts and therefore together are both improved by the experience.
I feel like this plan is structurally unstable
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@ben_lubar said in Jeff'd Again:
@Vixen said in Jeff'd Again:
@Zenith said in Jeff'd Again:
I believe that the core question is really what sort of developer you are. Are you trying to empower others or control them?
I myself only stand where I am because i stand on the shoulders of Giants. It therefore behooves me to assist others to stand on my shoulders so that we together are greater than the sum of our parts and therefore together are both improved by the experience.
I feel like this plan is structurally unstable
perhaps, but it seems to be working so far.
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@levicki Jeff is an idiot, the king of "you don't need..."
That he has any sort of audience shows how far standards have fallen.
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@Zenith said in Jeff'd Again:
@levicki Jeff is an idiot, the king of "you don't need..."
i think it's more that he's the king of "We've never met and I don't know what your point of view is but I know better than you do what you want and need"
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Jeff'd Again:
@levicki I don't know about you, but being able to use CSS Grid (instead of the utter hacks that went before) was a total godsend for making even static pages without tearing your hair out.
And that sort of thing really can't be worked around. Either you don't use those features for anyone (which sucks and causes stagnation IE 6-style), or you do some complex, fragile polyfill that takes dozens of times more work both to make and to upkeep. Plus bloats pages horrifically. Or you accept that people need to update their browsers just to keep them safe against malicious actors and so you can not worry so much about the @Lorne-Kates of the world who insist on running browsers that have been abandoned.
Tables are better
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@sockpuppet7 I disagree. It's hard to read (the text goes to the edge of the page so when it's wider than just a little bit, it's painful). It is aesthetically ugly (which is distracting). It makes poor use of whitespace.
Yes, there's a huge missing space between that and the modal website today (which is over-bloated with fancy frameworks and "artistic" design that just gets in the way). But pushing bad things there just makes more bad things. Instead, we should use the tools we have to make better things.
I hold no briefs for most modern web developers. They stink. But that is a horrible example of anything that should be put out there.
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@Benjamin-Hall better motherfucking websties are available
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@levicki except that it doesn't convey information effectively at all. I stopped reading at about the 3rd phrase. Heck, I didn't follow the link, because I knew what the screed was going to be from the name of the site.
There's a balance to be struck. Is the modern way it? No. Not at all. But neither is the
"throw out the last two decades of web design and just use tables" approach. If one is cancer, the other is pneumonia with a side of ebola.
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@hungrier said in Jeff'd Again:
@Benjamin-Hall better motherfucking websties are available
Is that like a pastie but for computers?
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Jeff'd Again:
@levicki except that it doesn't convey information effectively at all. I stopped reading at about the 3rd phrase. Heck, I didn't follow the link, because I knew what the screed was going to be from the name of the site.
Ah, so you missed the bit at the end:
Yes, this is fucking satire, you fuck
I'm not actually saying your shitty site should look like this. What I'm saying is that all the problems we have with websites are ones we create ourselves. Websites aren't broken by default, they are functional, high-performing, and accessible. You break them. You son-of-a-bitch.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Jeff'd Again:
But what did this have to do with tables? That website only uses
<p>and a load of other semantic inline tags...
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@Watson that one is satire, but this is not:
I guess when you wrote as much awesome code as Bellard you don't need to give a fuck to any of this
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@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
Truth is, compromised browser doesn't exist today
An unpatched browser is THE number one way you'll get hacked in the real world. Excluding running random .exe files.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Jeff'd Again:
@hungrier said in Jeff'd Again:
@Benjamin-Hall better motherfucking websties are available
Is that like a pastie but for computers?
More like a pigsty on the internet
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@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
Times of drive-by downloads are over.
I believe the majority of online criminals (who aren't Saudi princes) are just interested in stealing money, whether through gaining access to your credentials and using them to drain bank accounts, applying encryption to your data for extortion purposes, or by running concealed cryptocoin software.
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@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
Chrome auto-updates itself. So does Firefox. IE (from 8 to 11) and Edge are patched through Windows Update. Safari is patched with mac OS or sometimes standalone.
They can be updated but it doesn't mean they are.
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@loopback0 For example, Safari only updates on OS updates. Which, if my colleagues are any indication, don't always happen on schedule.
And I've noticed that Chrome on Mac gets updated way less frequently than on Windows--not because the updates themselves are fewer and further between but because it doesn't close the program (and trigger the update) when you close all the windows. Whereas on Windows I basically never see the green/yellow/red indicator of a waiting update (because I close windows frequently), I see it quite commonly on Mac. Purely anecdotal, but
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0-day exploits are very much still a thing that exists.
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@Vixen said in Jeff'd Again:
@Zenith said in Jeff'd Again:
@levicki Jeff is an idiot, the king of "you don't need..."
i think it's more that he's the king of "We've never met and I don't know what your point of view is but I know better than you do what you want and need"
I know better than you that you need some commas.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Jeff'd Again:
Whereas on Windows I basically never see the green/yellow/red indicator of a waiting update (because I close windows frequently)
Curiously, I see the indicator quite a bit on PC. And on Mac too. (No, I don't close all windows very often.)
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@dkf said in Jeff'd Again:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Jeff'd Again:
Whereas on Windows I basically never see the green/yellow/red indicator of a waiting update (because I close windows frequently)
Curiously, I see the indicator quite a bit on PC. And on Mac too. (No, I don't close all windows very often.)
I'm one of those neurotic people who generally closes all windows every day, even when the device is just going to sleep. I basically never have long-running tabs, and even then not very many. I've got 5 across 2 windows, and that only because I was transcribing something and having both open on different monitors was useful.
I know, I'm
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Jeff'd Again:
I know, I'm
Maybe. Maybe not.
At the moment I only have 38 tabs open...
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Jeff'd Again:
@Vixen said in Jeff'd Again:
@levicki said in Jeff'd Again:
TL;DR -- considerably more than 4 years but Apple haters are gonna hate.
PEARS RULE! APPLES DROOL!
Pears totally rule, but apples are okay, too, if the face is pretty
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@djls45 said in Jeff'd Again:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Jeff'd Again:
<not the apples I was looking for>@Vixen said in Jeff'd Again:
PEARS RULE! APPLES DROOL!
Pears totally rule, but apples are okay, too, if the face is pretty
What took you guys so long!
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Jeff'd Again:
@djls45 said in Jeff'd Again:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Jeff'd Again:
<not the apples I was looking for>@Vixen said in Jeff'd Again:
PEARS RULE! APPLES DROOL!
Pears totally rule, but apples are okay, too, if the face is pretty
What took you guys so long!
Nobody could come.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Jeff'd Again:
I'm one of those neurotic people who generally closes all windows every day, even when the device is just going to sleep
Always. One of my laptops would always wake up in the middle of the night and update. So I always make sure I'm safe-from-reboot.
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@dcon I've had a computer that just randomly wakes itself up from sleep and does...nothing. Nothing at all. Sometimes within minutes of putting it to sleep, sometimes hours later. And no, the "wake on input" settings are disabled. And I live alone (or so I'm pretty sure).
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Jeff'd Again:
@dcon I've had a computer that just randomly wakes itself up from sleep and does...nothing. Nothing at all. Sometimes within minutes of putting it to sleep, sometimes hours later. And no, the "wake on input" settings are disabled. And I live alone (or so I'm pretty sure).
(I forgot to note in my previous post that said machine was an upgraded Win7 machine)
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@dcon But I don't have WMC on any of my machines currently. And it still does it. Sometimes. Not always. I think it's haunted.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Jeff'd Again:
@djls45 said in Jeff'd Again:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Jeff'd Again:
<not the apples I was looking for>@Vixen said in Jeff'd Again:
PEARS RULE! APPLES DROOL!
Pears totally rule, but apples are okay, too, if the face is pretty
What took you guys so long!
I check threads only every few days, but for a few exceptions, so a 3-day lag is pretty normal for me.
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@djls45 said in Jeff'd Again:
I check threads only every few days, but for a few exceptions, so a 3-day lag is pretty normal for me.
Okay, no prob, you're off the hook.
@Tsaukpaetra said in Jeff'd Again:
Nobody could come.
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@Benjamin-Hall I used to do that before tabbed browsing. If I wanted to go back to a page later, I had a bookmark.
Then bookmarks were ruined. First, nobody wants to fix the UI for them. Every bookmark management window looks like it's stuck in 1995 and there's still no scrollbar on what is for some reason a very very very long menu list. Second, infiniscroll and other abortions made it more difficult to actually use them as intended. Thus, it just made more sense to keep tabs open. Until Chrome started with this garbage "let's only keep the last three tabs in memory" bit carried over from Android. Blink must leak memory like a sieve.
