Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game
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@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
The Incredible Machine
Memories...
Oh and the first Civilization and it's clones ...
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@error My point is that everyone focuses on the drag and drop blocks as the important thing that makes Scratch educational, when in reality they are just a minor feature, because after you're done learning types there's still so much more you can learn with it.
My other point is that there is a massive chasm between Scratch and Visual Studio that has been mostly empty for decades.
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I‘d like to ask: What‘s wrong with „something educational is gamified“? That‘s one of the better ways to learn about basic concepts. If something is fun you‘re uniquely motivated to learn about the rules in order to be good at the game.
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@Rhywden A few issues I've seen--
- Most "educational" games are either educational or fun. At best. Most are neither.
- The education-per-time efficiency is low.
- Often, they get gamed--people find exploits that let them avoid the challenging part (the learning) in favor of the fun part (the game). Or if you require certain scores, they find ways to get the minimum score with the minimum effort.
- External motivations like games or scores or "fun" are transitory and only go so far. In fact, they can supplant true internal motivation, leaving the learner unsupported when you go beyond the very simple stuff a game can cover and get to the actual hard part. This is a common problem with "keeping learning interesting/relevant"--it's much easier to do so when you're covering surface, easy, "popularized" concepts. When you're actually building the tools and thought-habits necessary to make real progress, you have to have internal motivation and strong roots. And only doing things that are "fun" doesn't prepare you for that adversity.
They're great for people who are mainly lacking a kick to get over the initial metaphysical inertia but who can be self-motivated after that. They're not so good for the normal person who needs more support, at least IMO.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
I like how you immediately set up the "workflow chart" strawman, as if we would write everything in formal letter to the editor.
I like how you like using .
Any idea for an alternative to the "workflow chart strawman", as you put it?
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@Zecc @anonymous234 has already said above:
there is a massive chasm between Scratch and Visual Studio that has been mostly empty for decades.
We don't need the (umpteen+1)-th "teach complete noobs coding" product there because, well, there are already an umpteen such products in the wild and they really struggle to distinguish themselves from each other, especially when lots of them are just Scratch wrappers. It's a dead, red sea, and milking it is completely pointless. Codecademy only works because they run on venture capital, and they aim for the bootcamp business, not "teach complete noobs coding" business.
What we actually need are things that turn mediocre, novice coders into sensible, versatile coders. I can't emphasis how fucking terrible this field is: everyone's suggesting everyone else to use OJ sites like Leetcode/Hackerrank/Codingame/... and do only algorithm problems while browsing geeksforgeeks for resources, which is a very bad idea to make a coder versatile because algorithm problems are basically advanced toy problems that trains you to juggle 10 registers in your brain, and a very bad idea to make a coder sensible too because the ecosystem around these sites often encourages writing unclear code, copying "algorithm snippets" and focuses on micro-optimizations.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Zecc @anonymous234 has already said above:
there is a massive chasm between Scratch and Visual Studio that has been mostly empty for decades.
We don't need the (umpteen+1)-th "teach complete noobs coding" product there because, well, there are already an umpteen such products in the wild and they really struggle to distinguish themselves from each other, especially when lots of them are just Scratch wrappers. It's a dead, red sea, and milking it is completely pointless. Codecademy only works because they run on venture capital, and they aim for the bootcamp business, not "teach complete noobs coding" business.
What we actually need are things that turn mediocre, novice coders into sensible, versatile coders. I can't emphasis how fucking terrible this field is: everyone's suggesting everyone else to use OJ sites like Leetcode/Hackerrank/Codingame/... and do only algorithm problems while browsing geeksforgeeks for resources, which is a very bad idea to make a coder versatile because algorithm problems are basically advanced toy problems that trains you to juggle 10 registers in your brain, and a very bad idea to make a coder sensible too because the ecosystem around these sites often encourages writing unclear code, copying "algorithm snippets" and focuses on micro-optimizations.
The problem is that, past the bootcamp/algorithm level, the only way to get better is to write real software. And that's not something that can be done en masse.
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@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
I've said it before: Scratch misses the point of itself. Having blocks instead of words changes almost nothing. It's a nice way to teach types, but that's all.
What makes Scratch so much better than "real" programming environments for beginners is the fact that it's actually designed to be easy to understand. There's a small amount of easily discovered and clear functions for input and output: "Draw image in this coordinate" "draw button in this coordinate", "on click trigger this function". There's a space to build your program and a button to run it. And that's all it takes!
Half of programming is knowing "algorithmics", i.e. how to represent what you want to do as logical instructions. This part is unavoidable. The other half is knowing how to interact with the tools (languages, frameworks, build systems). This half is what matters, and it's garbage most of the time.
Imagine a smart person who fully understands imperative programming (even the complex graph search algorithms), but has zero experience with anything else. Imagine them in front of Android Studio trying to figure it out so they can write a simple app.
Well, they'll have to figure out SDKs, emulators, debuggers, Gradle, Maven, Java, XML, inversion of control, classes, interfaces, objects, references, API versions, activities, intents, callbacks, styling, components, repositories, layouts, constraints and UI designers before they can do pretty much anything. And each of those things is designed in an abstruse way that only starts to make sense after you've used it for a month. And he'll need to go to the store to buy another 8GB of RAM just to launch the damn program first!
Oooh but what if Android Studio had little blocks you could drag and drop? OMG problem solved! It's easy now!
Learning software development is a many step process. Block-based drag and drop is great for the first few steps, and you complain that it doesn't solve all the rest of the steps too.
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@_P_ Ah, the ol' "this thing shouldn't exist because I wanted something else to exist".
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Now do you want to promote a natural language by encouraging people to speak basic "subject-verb-object" gibberish to everyone as a publicity stunt? That'd be laughable. Hence why Scratch as learning tool is mostly a scam: I don't want to learn a new language by doing that. Give me the real shit instead!
What is "real shit" though? As a kid, this was pretty awesome:
10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" 20 GOTO 10
Hey, look! I made the computer do something! If you really are new then you'll be too overwhelmed by the tools to actually do much "real shit." You need an easy environment where you can make things happen and then make changes to predictably get different results.
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@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
You need an easy environment where you can make things happen and then make changes to predictably get different results.
Yes, but...
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
If you really are new then you'll be too overwhelmed by the tools to actually do much "real shit."
No, because I grew up with too many different puzzle games since young age to not get overwhelmed by the tools (at least when they're not full of s). It's just as natural as second instinct to me. I speak vocally about these common notions because I'm a living counter-example to them. They're just... not true.
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
As a kid, this was pretty awesome:
Hey, look! I made the computer do something!
I'm also a living counter-example to this, since my mind has already been trained to think along the lines of "if I do this it's expected to happen" at very young age. It's just like when you read a horror story and you can basically anticipate what's going to happen as you reach a particular page. And expected result is nothing surprising. If anything, not getting expected result is TRSUP (either because I fucked up, or the stuff I'm using is ).
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@pie_flavor tl;dr
Also, being stuck in a mental block is, well, your own personal, mental issue. Why should programming languages aim to pander to user's own mental problems? How hard it is to git gud, or find useful peers to get rid of the block? Are you seriously claiming your own incompetence is why Scratch works for you (and hence for most people)?
If you're seriously claiming "Scratch is good for most people because I suck", it says more about yourself than the language itself. Maybe you belong to reddit or something.
:golf_clap:
WHBT
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Just an observation. For a few years now, I have been involved in Coder Dojo - with kids as young as 5.
Scratch is our typical second level (the first being "An Hour of Code").
Some of the kids are now in their mid-teens and doing some serious programming (we try to stay in touch). Most of them credit the Coder Dojo sessions as being their starting point, and are appreciative of it.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
They're great for people who are mainly lacking a kick to get over the initial metaphysical inertia but who can be self-motivated after that. They're not so good for the normal person who needs more support, at least IMO.
But that's exactly what games like these are (or should be) about. A gentle introduction to the general concept which, if things work out, get the kids interested and motivated in "the real thing".
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@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Imagine a smart person who fully understands imperative programming (even the complex graph search algorithms), but has zero experience with anything else. Imagine them in front of Android Studio trying to figure it out so they can write a simple app.
OK, but what does that have to do with kids? Someone has missed the point of Scratch, but I don't think it's Scratch.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
the golden rules of WTDWTF?
Quote anyone actually saying that!
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
the golden rules of WTDWTF?
Quote anyone actually saying that!
You just quoted me saying that.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
You need an easy environment where you can make things happen and then make changes to predictably get different results.
Yes, but...
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
If you really are new then you'll be too overwhelmed by the tools to actually do much "real shit."
No, because I grew up with too many different puzzle games since young age to not get overwhelmed by the tools (at least when they're not full of s). It's just as natural as second instinct to me. I speak vocally about these common notions because I'm a living counter-example to them. They're just... not true.
So...you're saying that you got what Scratch can do for some people from...other games? And if other people want to use Scratch instead of the games you grew up with they're dumb or something? Is this what you're saying?
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
As a kid, this was pretty awesome:
Hey, look! I made the computer do something!
I'm also a living counter-example to this, since my mind has already been trained to think along the lines of "if I do this it's expected to happen" at very young age. It's just like when you read a horror story and you can basically anticipate what's going to happen as you reach a particular page. And expected result is nothing surprising. If anything, not getting expected result is TRSUP (either because I fucked up, or the stuff I'm using is ).
No, you're exactly an example, but you're not as smart as you think you are because you just imagine that you're special or something instead of just like everyone else, for some reason, even though your stories explain exactly the opposite of what you think they say about you.
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This post is deleted!
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
the golden rules of WTDWTF?
Quote anyone actually saying that!
You just quoted me saying that.
Oh? Ok then.
The golden rules of WTDWTF: Fuck EVERYONE!
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@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
But that's exactly what games like these are (or should be) about. A gentle introduction to the general concept which, if things work out, get the kids interested and motivated in "the real thing".
I don't even know what this "motivated to do the real thing" even mean, since this Ubisoft game is obviously aiming for teeangers instead of kids, and teenagers have immense amount of willpower. If they're being big sloths and never have learnt to use their willpower wisely and responsibly, well, it sucks for them. But it's really a life skill, and it has nothing to do with Scratch. Apparently Scratch also solves people's own mental problems?
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
If you really are new then you'll be too overwhelmed by the tools to actually do much "real shit."
No, because I grew up with too many different puzzle games since young age to not get overwhelmed by the toolsMy first program was an endofunctor and these noob kids just need to git gud!FTFY.
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@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
If you really are new then you'll be too overwhelmed by the tools to actually do much "real shit."
No, because I grew up with too many different puzzle games since young age to not get overwhelmed by the toolsMy first program was an endofunctor and these noob kids just need to git gud!FTFY.
YDNKM
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
the golden rules of WTDWTF?
Quote anyone actually saying that!
You just quoted me saying that.
Oh? Ok then.
The golden rules of WTDWTF: Fuck EVERYONE give me gold!
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
If you really are new then you'll be too overwhelmed by the tools to actually do much "real shit."
No, because I grew up with too many different puzzle games since young age to not get overwhelmed by the toolsMy first program was an endofunctor and these noob kids just need to git gud!FTFY.
YDNKM
Assuming this means "you do not know me", let me quote what you yourself said in this very thread:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:How hard it is to git gud, or find useful peers to get rid of the block?
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@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
So...you're saying that you got what Scratch can do for some people from...other games? And if other people want to use Scratch instead of the games you grew up with they're dumb or something? Is this what you're saying?
You're also intentionally missing the point, aren't you?
The point of "Scratch scam" is that Scratch is not a magical tool that gives you motivation to pick up a profession. Anything can give you that, either video games, good teachers/peers, good book, or whatever. Associating the thing that enabled you to pick the profession as the One True Path is , and whenever being pressed by "so what exactly makes Scratch a better choice than other at this", people begin to sprout unsourced shit that goes along the line of "because it's 'simpler' and hence more beginner-friendly and easier to pick up", which, on top of being totally made up, implies causation out of correlation. Until the general idea of this disappears it's still false advertising and hence scam.
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
No, you're exactly an example, but you're not as smart as you think you are because you just imagine that you're special or something instead of just like everyone else, for some reason, even though your stories explain exactly the opposite of what you think they say about you.
You sound like an old boomer there.
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@topspin Where's the WTF? Scratch is not the magical tool to solve your own problem of having difficulty to find motivation to pick up a profession. That's, well, your own mental issue, and you need to work it out yourself instead of relying on some magical weight-losing pills to do fantasy work for you.
I said that to @pie_flavor because that entire tl;dr story basically reads like a "I used to suck at everything until Scratch saved my life and made me a successful person" post, and that's a massive .
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
The point of "Scratch scam" is that Scratch is not a magical tool that gives you motivation to pick up a profession.
I don't recall anyone saying this. Source?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
The point of "Scratch scam" is that Scratch is not a magical tool that gives you motivation to pick up a profession.
I don't recall anyone saying this. Source?
At least not on the first page, for the first page of the thread everyone brought out that same point I mentioned there. It's already kinda dubious in the first place, but then @pie_flavor had to unleash that post, and then we're entering the "let's at the newest blakeyrat" stage.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
The point of "Scratch scam" is that Scratch is not a magical tool that gives you motivation to pick up a profession.
I don't recall anyone saying this. Source?
At least not on the first page, for the first page of the thread everyone brought out that same point I mentioned there. It's already kinda dubious in the first place, but then @pie_flavor had to unleash that post, and then we're entering the "let's at the newest blakeyrat" stage.
So that's a fat. "No" then?
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@Tsaukpaetra Yes, No.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
So...you're saying that you got what Scratch can do for some people from...other games? And if other people want to use Scratch instead of the games you grew up with they're dumb or something? Is this what you're saying?
You're also intentionally missing the point, aren't you?
I don't think so, but do enlighten me!
The point of "Scratch scam" is that Scratch is not a magical tool that gives you motivation to pick up a profession.
Oh, if that was related to the point, then I'm definitely missing it. What does that even mean!? What scam?
Anything can give you that, either video games, good teachers/peers, good book, or whatever.
And?
Associating the thing that enabled you to pick the profession as the One True Path is , and whenever being pressed by "so what exactly makes Scratch a better choice than other at this", people begin to sprout unsourced shit that goes along the line of "because it's 'simpler' and hence more beginner-friendly and easier to pick up", which, on top of being totally made up, implies causation out of correlation. Until the general idea of this disappears it's still false advertising and hence scam.
TDEMSYR. No, seriously, it literally makes no sense. Where did "One True Path" come from?
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
No, you're exactly an example, but you're not as smart as you think you are because you just imagine that you're special or something instead of just like everyone else, for some reason, even though your stories explain exactly the opposite of what you think they say about you.
You sound like an old boomer there.
Just what an entitled millennial would say.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Tsaukpaetra Yes, No.
Well, until you provide even a basic evidence that what you're saying is being said has been said, I say I don't believe I can engage further. Bad faith and all that I'm afraid to say.
Edit: fucking control key getting in the way.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@topspin Where's the WTF? Scratch is not the magical tool to solve your own problem of having difficulty to find motivation to pick up a profession. That's, well, your own mental issue, and you need to work it out yourself instead of relying on some magical weight-losing pills to do fantasy work for you.
I said that to @pie_flavor because that entire tl;dr story basically reads like a "I used to suck at everything until Scratch saved my life and made me a successful person" post, and that's a massive .
@pie_flavor retold a story that actually happened, so you can't outright dismiss it as "it doesn't work like that". Besides that, nobody has advertised that Scratch / this game would create interest in people who already decided this is what they want to do but don't want to learn it. It can just as well create interest in people who haven't decided a profession and games/puzzles/whatever first contact they have makes them interested.
Since you've mentioned strawman arguments before, this whole "this game is a silver bullet to make everyone rockstar coders" claim hasn't actually been made by anyone.
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@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
this whole "this game is a silver bullet to make everyone rockstar coders" claim hasn't actually been made by anyone.
My point exactly. Scams predicated on the existence of something that doesn't exists are merely conspiracy theories.
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@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
TDEMSYR. No, seriously, it literally makes no sense. Where did "One True Path" come from?
Paging @shoulder-alien to the rescue!
You sound like an old boomer there.
Just what an entitled millennial would say.
Hey, don't mix us all together with him.
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@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
They're great for people who are mainly lacking a kick to get over the initial metaphysical inertia but who can be self-motivated after that. They're not so good for the normal person who needs more support, at least IMO.
But that's exactly what games like these are (or should be) about. A gentle introduction to the general concept which, if things work out, get the kids interested and motivated in "the real thing".
Sure. But (speaking as someone who is constantly bombarded with convention talks, websites, "research", etc for educational stuff) there's a drive to make everything gamified. It's the dose makes the poison issue. Plus, I've found that "fun" introductions can backfire. Badly. Because the real thing isn't that much fun. I've seen it with "fun" middle school science teachers who focus on "fun" and not on mastery and building the skills that they really need. And so when things get tough, the kids think I'm dumb, not This is hard so I need to work. They associate "not fun" with "not interested". As a result, they don't learn to pay attention to detail or just work through things to get at the meat--they just (like you do with any game that's not fun) give up and do something else.
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@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
this whole "this game is a silver bullet to make everyone rockstar coders" claim hasn't actually been made by anyone.
The fact that the game itself exists, and there are media coverage talking about the exact point means it has already been made. Otherwise why would Ubisoft make such a game? Since when have you seen AAA game companies bothered enough to make side games that is incredibly niche to their audience, doesn't make any profit, and clearly is of very little importance to them?
Also, the Scratch thing has been going on for at least a decade. It's not like Ubisoft is the first adopter of Scratch.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
this whole "this game is a silver bullet to make everyone rockstar coders" claim hasn't actually been made by anyone.
The fact that the game itself exists, and there are media coverage talking about the exact point means it has already been made.
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@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
this whole "this game is a silver bullet to make everyone rockstar coders" claim hasn't actually been made by anyone.
The fact that the game itself exists, and there are media coverage talking about the exact point means it has already been made.
Yeah but both of us know that none of us care about what each other think. So
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
there are media coverage talking about the exact point means it has already been mad
Source?
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OK... umm... why is everyone calling this thing in this game "Scratch"? Because it sure looks like Blockly to me...
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
OK... umm... why is everyone calling this thing in this game "Scratch"? Because it sure looks like Blockly to me...
At this point, does it even matter anymore?
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@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Imagine a smart person who fully understands imperative programming (even the complex graph search algorithms), but has zero experience with anything else. Imagine them in front of Android Studio trying to figure it out so they can write a simple app.
OK, but what does that have to do with kids? Someone has missed the point of Scratch, but I don't think it's Scratch.
Kids use Scratch, they learn types and simple algorithms and are able to make the Rabbids solve levels. Kids now have basic programming skills.
Kids are slightly older now and want more. But there is no slightly-more-complex "Rabbids Coding". There is no environment that will let them use those skills to make a very simple Windows or Android or web program (there probably are but nobody knows about them).
The next popular thing up is Python, and Python is too hard. Kids get discouraged and forget the whole thing.Because we have not learned the lesson from Scratch, we have 25 variations of Scratch but no Scratch+1, Scratch+2, Scratch+3.
Is what I was trying to say.
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@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Imagine a smart person who fully understands imperative programming (even the complex graph search algorithms), but has zero experience with anything else. Imagine them in front of Android Studio trying to figure it out so they can write a simple app.
OK, but what does that have to do with kids? Someone has missed the point of Scratch, but I don't think it's Scratch.
Kids use Scratch, they learn types and simple algorithms and are able to make the Rabbids solve levels. Kids now have basic programming skills.
Kids are slightly older now and want more. But there is no slightly-more-complex "Rabbids Coding". There is no environment that will let them use those skills to make a very simple Windows or Android or web program (there probably are but nobody knows about them).
The next popular thing up is Python, and Python is too hard. Kids get discouraged and forget the whole thing.Because we have not learned the lesson from Scratch, we have 25 variations of Scratch but no Scratch+1, Scratch+2, Scratch+3.
Is what I was trying to say.
There used to be something similar to build Android apps using blocks, but I forgot the name of it and I'm too lazy to look it up on the list of products Google has killed.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
"this thing will revolutionize teaching coding!". In the 80s it was LOGO and the turtle
We had LOGO for a year in middle school. Sure, it didn't revolutionize anything, but we learned to separate our turtle problems into building blocks, seek repetition and generalize. I think it was fun, and I got to write my own code without copy-pasting it from a tutorial. This should count for something.
Some of my class mates prided themselves in storing the code in giant piles of text with almost no newlines anywhere (the dialect of LOGO we used wasn't picky about what kind of whitespace you use to separate tokens). I tried indenting the code once and found out that it's much easier to debug and that I cannot go back to one-liner style. One person wrote a program to complement a geometrical proof, complete with cooperative multitasking to move many shapes on the screen at once; I was crazy jealous.
In the end, LOGO didn't prove directly useful outside the course. I wanted to brute force some "advanced mathematics in middle school" problem but couldn't figure out the syntax for what ought to have been a simple for loop with a conditional inside. Later, self-tasked with a physics calculation, I did it in AutoIt. Not only it felt easier, the language also didn't confine me in a virtual machine and allowed me to write a program to open the CD tray every 11 minutes, which I had secretly dreamt of writing for years.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
The golden rules of WTDWTF: Fuck EVERYONE!
You wish
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@Luhmann said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
The golden rules of WTDWTF: Fuck EVERYONE!
You wish
Indeed!
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
since this Ubisoft game is obviously aiming for teeangers instead of kids,
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
obviously
[citation needed]
Do teenagers even like Rabbids?
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
I said that to @pie_flavor because that entire tl;dr story basically reads like a "I used to suck at everything until Scratch saved my life and made me a successful person" post, and that's a massive .
If you read the story, and end up with the belief that it was anything like that, up to and including being about me in the first place, then you may want to re-evaluate whether you are literate.