Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements)
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And it's official. RIP Epic Games dev account.
https://apps.apple.com/us/developer/epic-games/id387428403
Will Epic endure the entire month until the trial? Will public opinion favor Apple, Epic or nobody? Will Unreal Engine stop being relevant for mobile development because of this? Find out on the next episode of Epic Games vs The World!
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
nobody
Probably this. A pox on both their houses.
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Will Unreal Engine stop being relevant for mobile development because of this?
That part of Epic apparently isn't banned.
Though, it would have been funny if they did - here, it's mentioned that Apple currently promotes PUBG on their appstore. PUBG uses the Unreal Engine.
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@cvi said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Will Unreal Engine stop being relevant for mobile development because of this?
That part of Epic apparently isn't banned.
Although only because a court order forbids them.
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@Gąska True.
General question, though: I'm not too familiar with how the Apple appstore works. What would actually happen to e.g. a game like PUBG(M) if Apple were to block the Unreal Engine related accounts? From what I've read so far, it seems like that would have an impact somehow, despite technically "only" being a 3rd party component for PUBG. Does Apple somehow control 3rd party stuff in apps as well?
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@cvi said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Does Apple somehow control 3rd party stuff in apps as well?
Apple controls everything. The entire iOS ecosystem is designed around their massive control-freakery.
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@cvi as I understand it, they can ban UE tools from being used in future apps, which would also block updates to existing apps. They also have the power to uninstall apps that are already installed on users' phones, but they're very unlikely to use it on such scale.
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@cvi The problem is that Epic also develops Unreal Engine, and Apple banning all of Epic would remove the iOS/macOS dev tools from the UE team too, which would make further development of UE for Apple very difficult. But the judge ruled that banning the UE team in addition to the game team would impact too many third parties, so Apple was only allowed to ban Epic Games themselves.
Although I dunno if UE runs on Apple Silicon Macs yet, found no info on it. Meanwhile, both the Unity player and editor is running on Apple Silicon natively now. And I would imagine the UE team needs the dev access and the dev kits to prepare UE for that too, so having that removed at this time would be very untimely for the cross-platform support.
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@Atazhaia AIUI the ban is for iOS only and they're free to release anything they want for Mac. They just decided not to.
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Okay. Things just got interesting.
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@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Okay. Things just got interesting.
The voices on that video are far too annoying to watch more than a few seconds. What's the gist of it?
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@Jaloopa said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Okay. Things just got interesting.
The voices on that video are far too annoying to watch more than a few seconds. What's the gist of it?
Epic have plans for an app store on android and apple.
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@DogsB Nothing stops them from making their own app store for Android. They could have one today if they wanted. Apple? GLHF convincing Apple to allow third-party app stores in an official capacity. Nothing stops them from making one for jailbroken devices, though...
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@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Epic have plans for an app store on android and apple.
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB Nothing stops them from making their own app store for Android. They could have one today if they wanted. Apple? GLHF convincing Apple to allow third-party app stores in an official capacity. Nothing stops them from making one for jailbroken devices, though...
Thats what the lawsuit is about. Apple and Google are abusing their monolopy and preventing/hindering them from launching their app store. Apple is abusing their walled garden and preventing anyone else from starting their own store on stock iPhone. Google is using their clout to prevent other phone producers from including their app on their phones. They've done this to epic once already.
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@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Thats what the lawsuit is about.
It's about Epic wanting to keep more of their money.
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Apple is abusing their walled garden and preventing anyone else from starting their own store on stock iPhone.
So? It's their platform. Apple don't have enough of the mobile market to be considered a monopoly.
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Google is using their clout to prevent other phone producers from including their app on their phones.
Google are doing what now? And even if that's true - so?
Anyone can install a non-Google store on an Android phone.
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Apple don't have enough of the mobile market to be considered a monopoly.
That depends on what the market in question is interpreted to be. A determination of that in court would be extremely helpful.
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Apple is abusing their walled garden and preventing anyone else from starting their own store on stock iPhone.
So? It's their platform. Apple don't have enough of the mobile market to be considered a monopoly.
I beleive the legal precedent set was monopolistic. That might be enough wiggle room for Epic to force apple to open up their platform.
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Google is using their clout to prevent other phone producers from including their app on their phones.
Google are doing what now? And even if that's true
They brought it up in the lawsuit so I imagine its true.
Anyone can install a non-Google store on an Android phone.
True but google abusing their monopoly and strongarming phone creators using android away from Epic is probably a legal grey area.
- so?
legal Apple being forced to open their platform to other app stores may be the funniest thing this decade.
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@DogsB And then Epic will go after MS, Nintendo and Sony and force them to open up their platforms to other stores. Which means console prices will go up by 50-100% because the manufacturers can no longer be guaranteed to recoup the hardware sales losses on software sales. Which means consoles will now cost like a regular gaming PC. Which means there is absolutely no reason for consoles to exist anymore as there is zero benefit to get one over a PC.
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
there is zero benefit to get one over a PC.
There never was.
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB And then Epic will go after MS, Nintendo and Sony and force them to open up their platforms to other stores. Which means console prices will go up by 50-100% because the manufacturers can no longer be guaranteed to recoup the hardware sales losses on software sales. Which means consoles will now cost like a regular gaming PC. Which means there is absolutely no reason for consoles to exist anymore as there is zero benefit to get one over a PC.
Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
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@DogsB Depends if you're part of the PC Gaming Master Race or not.
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB Depends if you're part of the PC Gaming Master Race or not.
Yeah, consoler crowd coming to PC would make games even worse.
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB Depends if you're part of the PC Gaming Master Race or not.
PC and switch so a foot in both camps. If more competition meant cheaper games I'm all for it.
*edit
A one off cost for a console is usually nothing compared to the amount of time I'll spend playing games.
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@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
cheaper games
No. If you cannot (or often wouldn't) afford games, please get another hobby
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
If you cannot (or often wouldn't) afford games, please get another hobby
That's a bit elitist. I've been getting on nicely with the free games Epic puts up each week and the occasional ones from other stores. Sometimes I'll buy something for a few quid in sales too. No way I'm paying £50 or more for a game when I know I'll be able to pick it up for a tenner, knowing whether it's any good or not, a couple of years later
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@Jaloopa Tankie economics thread is
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@Applied-Mediocrity keep subsidising my hobby tyvm
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
cheaper games
No. If you cannot (or often wouldn't) afford games, please get another hobby
If you want to pay more for your games you can always set up a second account and buy the game again. Some of us enjoy being skinflints.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
cheaper games
No. If you cannot (or often wouldn't) afford games, please get another hobby
Or just buy games on sale and (mostly) avoid new releases
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
cheaper games
No. If you cannot (or often wouldn't) afford games, please get another hobby
If one can't afford games, what hobbies can one afford? Gaming is one of the cheaper hobbies. There are far more expensive diversions out there:
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@Groaner said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
cheaper games
No. If you cannot (or often wouldn't) afford games, please get another hobby
If one can't afford games, what hobbies can one afford? Gaming is one of the cheaper hobbies. There are far more expensive diversions out there:
There's plenty of hobbies that don't require expensive high tech stuff and as a result are cheap. Gaming is not cheap at all.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
There's plenty of hobbies that don't require expensive high tech stuff and as a result are cheap. Gaming is not cheap at all.
A $1-2k investment in a decent rig with a life expectancy of 5+ years plus ~$10-60 per game isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things. I'll give you that it's not going to be as cheap as chess or hiking, but it's pretty reasonable for the hours of entertainment returned.
What I've spent on my car during certain years would pay for a couple decades of gaming. Excluding, of course, games that expect you to invest thousands of dollars to be competitive.
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@Groaner said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Excluding, of course, games that expect you to invest thousands of dollars to be competitive.
I was certain that link would've been a link to something about Warhammer, but I was wrong.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Gaming is not cheap at all.
That really depends on what you want to play. There are a huge swath of games that can run just fine on your standard off-the-shelf machine. Which a lot of people are going to have anyway. There is this misconception that you need a $1-$2k+ rig to game on. This is simply not true for the vast majority of games. Even a lot of AAA titles will run on far more modest machines than people think.
Are there cheaper hobbies? Of course, but gaming (even with a decent investment is a gaming machine) can easily pull value measured in cents/hour invested. Which is a pretty damn good return.
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@Dragoon said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Gaming is not cheap at all.
There is this misconception that you need a $1-$2k+ rig to game on. This is simply not true for the vast majority of games. Even a lot of AAA titles will run on far more modest machines than people think.
But if you're not running supermax settings Mega Ultra 4k at 480 fps you're not a True Gamer!11!one!
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@coderpatsy It's true, one time I dipped down to 479 fps and the PC master race came and took away my computer
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@hungrier said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@coderpatsy It's true, one time I dipped down to 479 fps and the PC master race came and took away my computer
To laugh and kick it of course. None of them would want to use such trash.
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Yeah, I'm not saying it's an expensive hobby, in the grand scheme of things. Just that there are tons of things that you can do as a hobby, that are considerably cheaper.
And, of course, in many cases you can do many things very cheaply, or you can spend a lot on pretty much the same thing. Like, you can buy 100$ bike and ride it to death for many years. Or you can buy $5K bike, high end helmet, outfit, shoes, tools, gopro and whatnot.
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
So? It's their platform. Apple don't have enough of the mobile market to be considered a monopoly.
The law isn't concerned with monopolies, it's concerned with monopoly behavior. Which Apple is guilty of.
Having an OS and a browser was enough to get Microsoft in trouble. Having a phone OS and an App Store should get Apple in trouble.
@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Anyone can install a non-Google store on an Android phone.
Again, with Microsoft. It wasn't even that no one could install another browser. It was that their browser was bundled.
@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB And then Epic will go after MS, Nintendo and Sony and force them to open up their platforms to other stores. Which means console prices will go up by 50-100% because the manufacturers can no longer be guaranteed to recoup the hardware sales losses on software sales. Which means consoles will now cost like a regular gaming PC. Which means there is absolutely no reason for consoles to exist anymore as there is zero benefit to get one over a PC.
You're assuming Nintendo doesn't just say "fuck it" and don't allow anyone to make a Switch game.
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Having an OS and a browser was enough to get Microsoft in trouble. Having a phone OS and an App Store should get Apple in trouble.
Windows had 90% of the desktop market back when they got in trouble. For the average personal user, there wasn't really another choice in OS.
Apple only have 25% of the mobile market.
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Apple only have 25% of the mobile market.
But it is alleged that they have a captive market within that segment (which is a large market in and of itself, which is not a crime in itself) and are charging monopoly rents. It is that last point that the law actually views as being the matter of concern, not the having of a monopoly in the first place.
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@dkf The thing is that Apple are following the industry standard rates. So that would be pretty much every app store (except for EGS) charging "monopoly rents", even on platforms with a choice and competition between stores (PC/Android/Mac).
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@Atazhaia That's the sort of reason why having this all come to court is good.
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Having an OS and a browser was enough to get Microsoft in trouble. Having a phone OS and an App Store should get Apple in trouble.
Windows had 90% of the desktop market back when they got in trouble. For the average personal user, there wasn't really another choice in OS.
Apple only have 25% of the mobile market.I think it's a problem to only act due to a companies market share.
What if a company is a monopoly because all the others suck really bad? Is it really helping the market to rip into it?
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@Atazhaia said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@dkf The thing is that Apple are following the industry standard rates. So that would be pretty much every app store (except for EGS) charging "monopoly rents", even on platforms with a choice and competition between stores (PC/Android/Mac).
Irrelevant.
The problem is that Apple restricts store competition on its devices.
You either allow no third party at all, or you allow it all the way.
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Having an OS and a browser was enough to get Microsoft in trouble. Having a phone OS and an App Store should get Apple in trouble.
Windows had 90% of the desktop market back when they got in trouble. For the average personal user, there wasn't really another choice in OS.
Apple only have 25% of the mobile market.I think it's a problem to only act due to a companies market share.
If IE and Netscape's share of the market had been reversed, no-one would have given a shit IE was included in Windows. No-one gives a shit now.
What if a company is a monopoly because all the others suck really bad? Is it really helping the market to rip into it?
So you punish companies for having good competition?
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@loopback0 said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
So you punish companies for having good competition?
No, I mean, crippling a company solely because it's large and owns the majority of the market is not a good thing for the market.
There's no reason to act unless it's detrimental to the market. If a company is a monopoly because it is just that much better, crippling it so crappier companies can compete hurts the market.What you want is to address monopolistic behavior regardless of market share. That's what hurts the market. Not the result of competition favoring one company greater than others.
And in this case, even though it's not a majority market share, it's a majority market share ON apple devices.
You're coming in from the wrong angle.
Ignore that it's a phone company with an app store.
Think of it as an app store company that made a phone that only its store is allowed on.
Because that is bad behavior. The next step would be to work out deals with carriers so that they only carry Apple phones. Also bad. Now Apple controls all of the app store market for that carrier. See the trend?
Another example. Imagine Walmart contributing to the building of a community with the agreement that no other grocery chain can build in that community.
Is it really fair to tell people, "Well, you don't have to shop at Walmart. You could drive 30 mins to the next area."
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
it's a majority market share ON apple devices.
Yeah, no shit.
If a company makes the device and it builds the infrastructure and it builds the ecosystem it's got the damn right to be not just the majority but the only party.@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
You're coming in from the wrong angle.
Ignore that it's a phone company with an app store.
Think of it as an app store company that made a phone that only its store is allowed on.Wat.
@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
The next step would be to work out deals with carriers so that they only carry Apple phones
So? Carriers can also refuse to do deals with Apple and only sell Android phones. That's their choice.
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Another example. Imagine Walmart contributing to the building of a community with the agreement that no other grocery chain can build in that community.
Is it really fair to tell people, "Well, you don't have to shop at Walmart. You could drive 30 mins to the next area."Imagine Walmart entirely building the community. Their buildings, their land, their roads.
Don't want to shop at Walmart? Don't move to Walmartville.