Right to repair sold to the highest bidder
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@boomzilla said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@dangeRuss said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
I linked to a specific PSA that said don't put LEDs into cars not designed for them, but also he talks about how the blinky lights are not street legal.
IME all turn signals blink. And rightly so.
We're talking about brake lights here. And idiot American cars that don't differentiate between turn signals and brake lights.
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@dangeRuss said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@boomzilla said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@dangeRuss said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
I linked to a specific PSA that said don't put LEDs into cars not designed for them, but also he talks about how the blinky lights are not street legal.
IME all turn signals blink. And rightly so.
We're talking about brake lights here. And idiot American cars that don't differentiate between turn signals and brake lights.
Ah, I guess that would do it. Yeah, that would be bad. I've never seen that.
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@Gąska Well, if Sleepy Joe were still in the Senate, I'd have no problem believing a Senator could forget his own bill.
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@Zerosquare channelling my inner blakey...
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@boomzilla said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@dangeRuss said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@boomzilla said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@dangeRuss said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
I linked to a specific PSA that said don't put LEDs into cars not designed for them, but also he talks about how the blinky lights are not street legal.
IME all turn signals blink. And rightly so.
We're talking about brake lights here. And idiot American cars that don't differentiate between turn signals and brake lights.
Ah, I guess that would do it. Yeah, that would be bad. I've never seen that.
It's fucking horrible, but only because I have to spend precious time determining if they're signaling, being an idgit, or a variety of other possible states that distracts from driving, because in order to accurately determine such I need to pay all the attention...
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@Zerosquare On the one hand, it seems like a good move. On the other hand, they're using some version of the horrible Allegria/Corporate Memphis art style
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@Zerosquare What are the odds...
: My phones broken
: Here's a repair kit
Thx! <"fixes" it> Hey, it's broken more
: Sorry, you opened the phone, that voids your warranty. Please buy a new one.
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Apple parts, tools, and manuals — starting with iPhone 12 and iPhone 13 — available to individual consumers.
At a low low price of new_device+100$
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@Gąska NY Shitty is
EDIT: Holy shit, those things cost $2K!?!
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@Gąska Doesn't EU legislation dictate that an item can be sent for warranty repair back to the same shop you bought it from? These things have been sold in Europe since at least 2018.
So... U.S.-ians will be buying motherboards smuggled in from Europe in the near future?
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@acrow This product is not targeted at the US market.
It only support a rider with a maximum weight of 275lbs
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@acrow said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@Gąska Doesn't EU legislation dictate that an item can be sent for warranty repair back to the same shop you bought it from? These things have been sold in Europe since at least 2018.
So... U.S.-ians will be buying motherboards smuggled in from Europe in the near future?
Yes, because the (implicit) purchase contract is with the local shop you bought the item from and not with the manufacturer. However, the shop may still rely on the manufacturer for repairs and it may still take them months to get the item repaired if the manufacturer doesn't cooperate.
The shop may also elect for a partial refund (based on how much of the typical lifetime has elapsed) or replacement with a comparable unit (EG an item which was returned by a different customer but found to still work).
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@PleegWat Right. I'm surprised the same doesn't apply in the U.S., as it'd stop some of these shenanigans. A shop that has had to send shit to U.S. for repairs will not do the mistake of carrying that brand again.
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@acrow said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
I'm surprised the same doesn't apply in the U.S.
Protip: if a law protects an employee or an individual customer, it most likely doesn't exist in the US.
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(* Except possibly in California.)
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@Zerosquare only if it causes cancer.
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@acrow said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@PleegWat Right. I'm surprised the same doesn't apply in the U.S., as it'd stop some of these shenanigans. A shop that has had to send shit to U.S. for repairs will not do the mistake of carrying that brand again.
That only applies if there's a legally guaranteed warranty to begin with. If there isn't, or it gets tossed aside with a clause like "THIS PRODUCT CARRIES NO WARRANTY, NOT EVEN AN IMPLICIT WARRANTY FOR SUITABILITY FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE" (in caps of course) then the shop owner is presumably in the clear.
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@PleegWat said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
If there isn't, or it gets tossed aside
You can't get rid of legally required warranties with a stupid waiver. At least not for off-the-shelf products that don't require you to sign a contract.
Well, there's shrink-wrap licenses. Probably not legally valid, but as long as nobody contests them...
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@topspin said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
Well, there's shrink-wrap licenses. Probably not legally valid, but as long as nobody contests them...
Shrink-wrap licenses usually contain phrases to indicate that they don't constrain the rights available to you by law, which is good because the law's guarantees would apply even if the license tried to say otherwise. Courts consider the law first and contract only after that; contracts technically cannot go against law under any circumstances — clauses of the contract that are illegal are effectively struck from the contract at the point when the court works out what the contract really says — that's how contract law works. An example of the kind of clause that a court would definitely strike would be one that states that a mediation service nominated by the manufacturer has to be used and that the decisions of that service will be binding; courts will just look at that and toss that bit straight out. Courts are everyone's default fallback mediation service, and the plaintiff always gets to choose the first venue (though they might get their case moved elsewhere, which is likely if there's an appeal).
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@dkf Right.
In Europe, there's such a thing as a generally expected lifetime, for consumer electronics. Unless otherwise is indicated in big, bold letters on top of the package, e.g. a laundry machine is expected to last at least 3 years of normal family use.
A mono-hoverboard does not really have a tradition in the expected lifetime. But AIUI the courts read the price tags and apply some variation of common sense to make an estimation of how long a device is supposed to last. And if it failed before that time, the seller can't squirm out via small print. The consumer can just march into the shop and make a return of the defective item. And the shop is responsible for handling it from that point onwards.
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@acrow said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
some variation of common sense
Oh, dear. Common sense is, unfortunately, rather uncommon. And what courts think is common sense is often nonsense.
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@HardwareGeek said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
And what courts think is common sense is often nonsense.
Especially if they're only (or mainly) looking at just the price tag.
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@djls45 said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@HardwareGeek said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
And what courts think is common sense is often nonsense.
Especially if they're only (or mainly) looking at just the price tag.
Price is a major signal; if you pay more, you expect to get higher quality, and expected product lifetime would be part of that. How long that should be would depend on what other products in that market sector do; if equivalents offering 5 year guarantees are available for less from competitors, it's going to be a very hard sell to persuade a court that your premium product should only offer a 1 year guarantee.
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The last few posts reminded me of my on-going struggle with a shop.
We bought an oven 2 1/2 years ago, and it broke. As if by coincidence (insert whatever emoji you like here, from to
:sarkmark:
), the warranty was 2 years. OK, so we'll have to pay for repairs.So we bring it back to the shop, who sends it to their workshop, who comes back (3 weeks later, despite the shop initially telling us it would only take "a couple of days", but we weren't really expecting anything else on that front) saying that they've identified what's wrong but can't fix it because the manufacturer no longer produces spare pieces and they give us back the (broken) oven.
That's were the begins! There's a law in France (maybe in the EU?) that says that as part of the lengthy blurb that no one ever reads when buying stuff like this, the seller must state for how long (at least) spare pieces will be available. And guess what, looking through the old paperwork, the shop said "5 years!"
So we write them an official letter stating all that. Then a minor miracle happens! Not only do they answer, but they tell us "we can't repair your oven but we'll give you a credit of half its value." Which is better than nothing, and at least an (unofficial) way to admit that they did a oops.
We bring the oven back again to the shop, which tries to contact the workshop/aftersales department and... call us back saying that yes when we brought the over they could see in our file that someone had put a note to give us a store credit, but a couple of days later (when they actually got around to sending it, I assume) the note was gone because the aftersale's person who put it in was wrong to do so and thus they couldn't do that anymore.
The current state is that we've sent another letter, stating that 1) they still are responsible for having lied to us on the spare pieces availability, 2) promising something to a customer and then walking back on that promise is a hell of a dick move, even if the promise shouldn't have been made and 3) doing so without even notifying us directly (it's not like they don't have our phone, email, address...) is really giving us the finger.
Well, it wasn't worded exactly in that way, but not that far.
Let's wait and see now.
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@remi is this a normal sized kitchen oven? That's being shipped around?
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@boomzilla probably a French oven
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@boomzilla said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@remi is this a normal sized kitchen oven? That's being shipped around?
No, it's more like a microwave oven, except a bit bigger/heavier because it's a "combined" oven that can do both microwave and regular heating. It's not a great oven but we had space-constraints in the kitchen, so it was a compromise.
The oven is now in the shop and we're not going to pick it up again. Even if they don't want to compensate us in any way, it's broken and cannot be fixed, why would we want to keep it?!
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@TimeBandit said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
probably a French oven
Hopefully not a Dutch oven
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The French Oven (also known as the Dutch Oven) is a versatile pot and serves many different uses, including braising, baking, searing, sautéing, and boiling.
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@remi Point out to them that the Loi Hamon states that breaking this availability rule can cost them up to 15,000€ if you involve the authorities.
Ask them if it your broken oven really is worth that much to them.
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@Rhywden I know you like to immediately jump to the full Might of the Law as a first step (hey, you're after all! ) but I prefer to do things gradually.
Yes, I know about that law (that's the one I mentioned above), but I'm first giving them an easy opportunity to solve the issue peacefully. As long as they do something to show they accept responsibility, and my overall net loss more or less amounts to what it would have cost me to fix the oven (the store credit of half the value probably fit that, though of course a store credit isn't the same as just giving us money), I'm happy. Well not "happy," but not willing to go to war with them for probably little more gain, and a whole lot more bother.
Now if they keep giving me the finger, I'll see about escalating things. But let's go one step at a time.
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@remi said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@Rhywden I know you like to immediately jump to the full Might of the Law as a first step (hey, you're after all! ) but I prefer to do things gradually.
Yes, I know about that law (that's the one I mentioned above), but I'm first giving them an easy opportunity to solve the issue peacefully. As long as they do something to show they accept responsibility, and my overall net loss more or less amounts to what it would have cost me to fix the oven (the store credit of half the value probably fit that, though of course a store credit isn't the same as just giving us money), I'm happy. Well not "happy," but not willing to go to war with them for probably little more gain, and a whole lot more bother.
Now if they keep giving me the finger, I'll see about escalating things. But let's go one step at a time.
That's what I like to do as well, my response was more aimed at their "We'll promise something but walk it back immediately"-behaviour.
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@Rhywden To be honest, that sounds like an internal fuck-up on their side rather than an actual thought-out decision. I can very well imagine that yes, some lowly support drone did not have the actual authority to do that, and some lowly manager unthinkingly cancelled it and never thought any further.
That doesn't make it alright or in any way acceptable, but it's not quite the same thing as an official "we won't do anything" from the company. Now, if they still tell us to fuck off after that second letter...
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@remi said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
We bought an oven 2 1/2 years ago, and it broke. As if by coincidence (insert whatever emoji you like here, from to :sarkmark:), the warranty was 2 years. OK, so we'll have to pay for repairs.
Ha ha ha ha... Guess, such happened to me, but with a dust sucker (a Philips Aquatrio). The ebay seller from where I had bought it is no longer active, so I contacted philips support. They told me that warranty period is over (I knew that anyway), and also that a repair for which I would have to pay can no more be offered. They'd send me some voucher for a 10% discount for a new dust sucker if I'd buy that from their web shop...
Well, I decided to try to repair it myself (what could I destroy with such an attempt?), and succeeded.
Fuck you, Philips!
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@BernieTheBernie said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
The ebay seller from where I had bought it is no longer active
That's an incidental thing that makes the whole story even more , which is that the shop is a well-known chain here, who built their reputation on having a decent after-sales and repair service.
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@BernieTheBernie said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
dust suckervacuum
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@topspin Do you remember the what-the-fun project "Dust Sucker"?
https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/28275/wtf-what-the-fun-project-dust-sucker
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@BernieTheBernie said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@remi said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
We bought an oven 2 1/2 years ago, and it broke. As if by coincidence (insert whatever emoji you like here, from to :sarkmark:), the warranty was 2 years. OK, so we'll have to pay for repairs.
Ha ha ha ha... Guess, such happened to me, but with a dust sucker (a Philips Aquatrio). The ebay seller from where I had bought it is no longer active, so I contacted philips support. They told me that warranty period is over (I knew that anyway), and also that a repair for which I would have to pay can no more be offered. They'd send me some voucher for a 10% discount for a new dust sucker if I'd buy that from their web shop...
Well, I decided to try to repair it myself (what could I destroy with such an attempt?), and succeeded.
Fuck you, Philips!I experienced the opposite with my Bosch dish washer - one part in the door had bent so it didn't close properly anymore. Went to their website, selected my model and they had several blueprints for the machine, detailing which part went where. Clicked on the faulty part and was led to the article page where I then could order this piece.
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@Rhywden said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@BernieTheBernie said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
@remi said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
We bought an oven 2 1/2 years ago, and it broke. As if by coincidence (insert whatever emoji you like here, from to :sarkmark:), the warranty was 2 years. OK, so we'll have to pay for repairs.
Ha ha ha ha... Guess, such happened to me, but with a dust sucker (a Philips Aquatrio). The ebay seller from where I had bought it is no longer active, so I contacted philips support. They told me that warranty period is over (I knew that anyway), and also that a repair for which I would have to pay can no more be offered. They'd send me some voucher for a 10% discount for a new dust sucker if I'd buy that from their web shop...
Well, I decided to try to repair it myself (what could I destroy with such an attempt?), and succeeded.
Fuck you, Philips!I experienced the opposite with my Bosch dish washer - one part in the door had bent so it didn't close properly anymore. Went to their website, selected my model and they had several blueprints for the machine, detailing which part went where. Clicked on the faulty part and was led to the article page where I then could order this piece.
Yeah, it's the same with Hotpoint here. Made it really easy to fix my dishwasher and tumble drier when they broke.
The exception was my old fridge which despite only being a dumb fridge had a controller board with a programmable chip on it that you could buy directly but then had to pay separately for an engineer to come out and program it.
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EDIT: Louis Rossman's response to this article is interesting:
https://youtu.be/9vhCaFW5xTk
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@Zerosquare said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
EDIT: Louis Rossman's response to this article is interesting:
https://youtu.be/9vhCaFW5xTkThey're actually complaining that they don't have the common sense to turn [the device] on before closing it up.
Sometimes you just have to use the tool between your ears.
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@izzion said in Right to repair sold to the highest bidder:
Sometimes you just have to use the tool between your ears.
And then the murders began.