In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine
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Ok, so australium is getting old.
To give people an idea of things I use australium for:
- DFHack Linux and Mac builds (6 of the 8 builds per commit).
- nginx reverse proxy (*.lubar.me)
- BuildMaster auto-log-in/GitHub webhooks proxy
- WTDWTF staging environment
- Go development
- IRC client (
irssi
running in ascreen
) - Linux dev stuff for work
None of this stuff requires a GPU, but CPU and RAM are very important.
Hardware specs are listed here in a quarter-megabyte text file.
I want to build this computer myself so I can say I've done it (and maybe we can figure out a name for it as a community). The closest I've gotten to building a computer is installing an SSD on my Windows machine a few months ago, and if all PC building is just "pointy metal adult lego", I should be fine.
Things I need (preferably Amazon links):
- Hard drive (currently australium has a 150GB hard drive that's about two thirds full, so basically any modern hard drive will work)
- (Maybe?) An SSD (Would be used exclusively for DFHack builds. Doesn't need to be very big - there are two DFHack builds going right now and the entire BuildMaster home folder is only 29GB, including all the caches. I'm not sure if SSDs that small even exist.)
- Case (I don't look at australium much, so I don't care how it looks, but since I want to keep australium running while I'm getting this set up, I can't reuse the case)
- Power supply (assuming it doesn't come with the case)
- Motherboard (I have no experience with this type of thing)
- Network card (assuming it doesn't come with the motherboard. My ISP gives me 15Mbps down and 1.5Mbps up, so high performance isn't really an issue.)
- CPU (pretty much any desktop CPU would work here and be much more powerful than the Core 2 Duo currently in australium)
- RAM (more is better. australium currently has 3.2GB and that means I can basically only run one big thing at a time)
- ??? (did I forget anything? I've never built a PC before.)
11:11 < BenLubar> people are telling me that my Linux machine would probably be | outperformed by a $200 computer from Walmart | 11:11 < BenLubar> so I might be looking into building a new one | 11:11 < operand> :thinking: | 11:12 < operand> What are your specs? | 11:12 < BenLubar> since the current one is just an old PC that my dad wasn't | using at his office anymore | 11:16 < ab9rf> heh | 11:17 < ab9rf> you should see the specs on the machine i'm using right now | 11:17 < ab9rf> model name : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 1.70GHz | 11:17 < lethosor> if you upgrade it, can you also make its internet go faster? | 11:17 < ab9rf> lethosor: haha | 11:21 < operand> im happy to know im not alone in trying to run df on a slow | cpu :p |
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I get your motivation, but I actually wouldn't bother building a machine in this price range. You'd save money buying whatever cheapo pizza box computer Dell's selling at the moment. Building a PC only becomes cost-effective as the hardware cost hits around $800 or so.
But! That aside, let's answer the actual question:
- I'd recommend an SSD, even though it'll probably nearly double the cost of your PC. They're faster. They're more reliable. They're even easier to install (slightly). They're just better by every metric except cost. Samsung (surprisingly) is a good brand.
- If you have a good SSD of appropriate size, you don't need a spinning hard drive. I only have a spinning hard drive in my PC because I do video editing, and raw video files would quickly overflow my 512 GB SSD.
- Cases are cheap. What you want to buy depends on what you want to build:
- Since you don't need a GPU, consider a Shuttle PC form-factor. You can usually buy Case + motherboard + CPU + RAM for a discount (note: Shuttle form factor takes some custom components; standard GPUs won't fit in these)
- Other than that, you just need to decide on your case size. Small tower, mid tower, full tower. Again: since you don't need a GPU you could use the smallest tower case available and save some $$$. And once again, the usual size limiter here is GPUs, which you've said are not a factor, so any size will work for you. (If you did need a powerful GPU, I'd avoid anything smaller than a mid tower.) Coolermaster is a good brand.
- PSU will come with a Shuttle case, often you'll find case/motherboard/PSU bundles on sites like NewEgg also. Again: without GPU requirements, almost any off-the-shelf PSU will work. Modular PSU will make the PC build a lot easier. Coolermaster is a good brand.
- Motherboard/CPU/RAM is a unit. Sometimes not RAM, but usually so. Pick your CPU, then pick a motherboard that matches it. ASUS, MSI are good brands.
- Network card: wired will come with your motherboard. If you want wireless, buy a cheap-o $25 one from Intel. Intel's the best brand here, but the wired will be whatever brand the motherboard uses.
- CPU is completely up to you. Low-end I5? Whatever you want to spend. If you don't buy a boxed CPU directly from the CPU maker, you'll need to buy a CPU cooler separately. If you buy an Intel boxed CPU, the cooler it comes with will work fine.
- RAM make sure the speed matches your motherboard's memory speed. Other than that, whatever you want to spend here.
- ??? You'll need:
- Standard sized Phillips screwdriver (I'm sure you have one, but hey it's Ben Lubar.)
- If you're installing a CPU, you need some of that thermal paste between the top of the CPU and the bottom of your cooler. I believe most coolers come with enough thermal paste to do the standard install.
- Since you're not buying a GPU, make sure your motherboard has a built-in GPU. (Usually an Intel 4000 or Intel 5000 series.) This isn't a given in 2018! A lot of motherboards no longer have built-in video!
- I've mentioned it like twice, but since it was missing from your initial list: CPUs need coolers. They literally can not run longer than 5 seconds without a heatsink and fan attached. Never power on a computer before the CPU's heatsink is in place. (In theory the chips protect themselves against damage, but don't try it.) In general, don't turn on the power without all components in place. Missing RAM won't destroy the world, but better safe than sorry.
- I mentioned this too but again: a modular PSU will make assembly a lot easier and your case a lot neater
That's about all I can think of.
EDIT: as for your basic concern, things are pretty easy to plug in here in 2018. The hardest bit is plugging the USB ports on the case and the fans into the little connectors on the motherboard, but even those are keyed so you should be fine as long as you don't force anything. Every other connector is properly keyed, surrounded by thick plastic that prevents bent pins, and is basically well-designed. (The same was not true back when I built my first PC.)
Oh also the power/reset button block of pins from the case to the motherboard can be a bit tricky sometimes. The motherboard will have a big row of pins but the connectors will all be these tiny 1-pin cables that need to be in the right place.
As far as installing CPUs, it's pretty foolproof. They're keyed, they lock down with a little lever, and modern ones don't even have pins to bend so you can't break them even if you force it. (Don't force it.)
If you want the computer to be upgradable, look for a case where the drive cages are removable. (It'll save your ass when that next component is just a LITTLE too long to fit between the PCI slot and the drive cage.) If you use a spinny hard drive, look for a case which has rails for the drives. Rails are great.
Don't bother with an optical drive unless you really need one. Remember that if you remove the drive cage, you can still install your spinny HD or SSD where the 5.25" DVD drive slots are. (If you need to.)
EDIT EDIT:
One quick warning: at some point you will drop a screw onto the motherboard. Motherboards have a little veneer coating to prevent the traces from getting scratched, but be very gentle when removing the screw you will drop. If you have one of these little grabby things:
Use it and pull straight up very carefully.
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Yeah, it's mostly pointy metal LEGO.
If you're starting from scratch, consider using Salt for configuration management.
A good case is important, but don't go overboard on it. I'd aim to spend like $70 on a case. $100 at the most.
CPU is important, but honestly, I'm happy with 10 year old Xeon performance. Go for more cores than faster clock. Go for more L2 cache than faster clock. And depending on how many tasks you're really going to do at the same time, I might prefer more L2 over more cores.
Memory is very important. Don't skimp. Just make sure you get a mother board that has the "user" features you need (enough USB ports, enough SATA, etc), is compatible with a CPU you pick out, and get as many gigabytes of RAM as you can afford.
Go for the SSD, at least for the root partition. I get a 60GB Patriot drive for my job for about $30. I've bought about 15, and one has failed so far (not great odds, but workable). Go for something a little better, like a Samsung or PNY 120 GB.
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@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Samsung (surprisingly) is a good [SSD] brand.
I have a 1TB one in my Windows machine and it's been great.
@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
f you have a good SSD of appropriate size, you don't need a spinning hard drive. [...] 512 GB SSD
Since australium's hard drive is only 150GB, a 256GB or 512GB SSD would be an upgrade in every way, so I'll skip the HDD.
@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
CPUs need coolers
I vaguely remember hearing something about generic heat sinks coming with CPUs, and since I'm not planning on overclocking, I assumed that would cut it.
@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Since you're not buying a GPU, make sure your motherboard has a built-in GPU.
Do I actually need a GPU? I'll be installing Ubuntu and then after that I won't even have a monitor plugged in. If I can figure out a way to do the entire install over SSH, it might never have a monitor attached. If I do use a GUI at some point, it will be over remote desktop, and I'm pretty sure xvfb doesn't have hardware acceleration support.
@captain said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
If you're starting from scratch, consider using Salt for configuration management.
I already have Otter. Is there a significant difference?
@captain said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
CPU is important, but [...]
99% of the heavy CPU loads on this machine will be from compiling C++ stuff. At some point, adding more cores just means you run out of RAM while trying to spawn compiler processes. Cache is definitely important.
@captain said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Memory is very important. Don't skimp.
I have 16GB on my Windows machine and I haven't run into any problems unless I'm doing something stupid like running three copies of Dwarf Fortress while playing Guild Wars 2 and running a C++ compiler and Google Chrome. What's a good amount of RAM to go for? 8GB? 16GB? 32GB? 64GB? 128GB? I assume having more RAM than storage space is a terrible idea.
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
I vaguely remember hearing something about generic heat sinks coming with CPUs,
Depends on how you buy them. Like I said, if you buy the retail boxed CPU it'll come with a cooler, if you buy an OEM CPU it generally will not.
@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Do I actually need a GPU?
You'll need one at least once to see the BIOS screen and probably to start your OS install. Yes in theory you can set up netboot, but that's going to be tricky with ZERO video output forever. I'm pretty sure no motherboards ship with netboot on by default (but I could be wrong.) If something goes wrong with your build, even if the motherboard manual says netboot is on by default, it's gonna be a real pain in the ass to debug what's wrong with it with zero GPU.
In any case, lots of motherboards come with cheap-o Intel GPUs and that's all you need. You could also buy a cheap-o $30 GPU and remove it once the PC's set up and stable if you really wanted.
@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
I have 16GB on my Windows machine and I haven't run into any problems unless I'm doing something stupid like running three copies of Dwarf Fortress while playing Guild Wars 2 and running a C++ compiler and Google Chrome. What's a good amount of RAM to go for? 8GB? 16GB? 32GB? 64GB? 128GB? I assume having more RAM than storage space is a terrible idea.
I don't know about Linux, but Windows 8+ manages memory so well that memory's no longer a big issue on computers. (The one exception: running a lot of VMs.)
Memory used to be super-critical, so I think a lot of people still have that stuck in their heads. But it's not that big a deal. At least for Windows.
Since Linux sucks ass, I could be wrong about all of this.
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@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Do I actually need a GPU?
You'll need one at least once to see the BIOS screen and probably to start your OS install. Yes in theory you can set up netboot, but that's going to be tricky with ZERO video output forever. I'm pretty sure no motherboards ship with netboot on by default (but I could be wrong.)
In any case, lots of motherboards come with cheap-o Intel GPUs and that's all you need.
To clarify, "GPU" technically means "graphics hardware", not "specialized high-performance gaming/Bitcoin mining graphics hardware," which appears to be what Ben was asking about.
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@masonwheeler Then he needs reading comprehension lessons, because motherboards with built-in GPUs always have shitty Intel 40xx with shared system memory and ain't nobody using that for crypto mining.
It used to be a given that every motherboard would have some form of built-in video, but that's no longer true so it's something you need to pay attention to. That's really my point.
If this link works:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&IsNodeId=1&N=100007627 600315438
It's Newegg's list of Intel-compatible motherboards that also have integrated video cards. (Note: once again you have to match the motherboard to your CPU, so don't put it in your shopping cart until you know what CPU you want.)
BTW you can also see from the prices listed that there's no way in hell you're gonna beat Dell cost-wise.
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
I already have Otter. Is there a significant difference?
It looks reasonable. As long as you can keep working configurations in a Git repo and have a way to deploy them to your virtual machines, it should be fine.
CPU is important, but [...]
99% of the heavy CPU loads on this machine will be from compiling C++ stuff. At some point, adding more cores just means you run out of RAM while trying to spawn compiler processes. Cache is definitely important.
Yeah, I'd be looking at some late model Xeons, maybe. Honestly, I just bought an 8 year old HP XW6600 with 8 cores and 16 GB of RAM a couple of years ago.
I have 16GB on my Windows machine and I haven't run into any problems unless I'm doing something stupid like running three copies of Dwarf Fortress while playing Guild Wars 2 and running a C++ compiler and Google Chrome. What's a good amount of RAM to go for? 8GB? 16GB? 32GB? 64GB? 128GB? I assume having more RAM than storage space is a terrible idea.
The way I do it, I have my "infrastructure" machine which keeps a Salt configuration and vagrant tree. I use vagrant to spin up virtual machines and salt to configure them (they play nicely together -- I just pass a parameter to vagrant and it knows how to install and run salt on the machine that's getting provisioned).
So, basically, I want enough RAM that each virtual machine can have as much RAM as it needs to do its job well, concurrently. This typically means the infrastructure machine has like 8GB free, since even though all the virtual machines are spun up, some of them are idle at any given time. I'm okay with that. I sit at it and use it as a desktop, too.
So, 16 to 32 GB should be good.
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@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
You'll need one at least once to see the BIOS screen and probably to start your OS install. Yes in theory you can set up netboot, but that's going to be tricky with ZERO video output forever.
USB installation media that just starts an sshd will do it. There is a fair chance that the motherboard will try to boot of an USB stick when it gets the choice between that and an unformatted drive.
If something goes wrong with your build, even if the motherboard manual says netboot is on by default, it's gonna be a real pain in the ass to debug what's wrong with it with zero GPU.
This, on the other hand, is very true. Even just stupid stuff like "is it actually recognizing my USB stick as a bootable thing?" is a pain when when you have zero feedback.
But as said later, most Intel CPUs have a built-in GPU these days and the motherboards have the appropriate connections, so unless you specifically go out of your way to avoid that, you should be fine.
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You need some form of video output for initial configuration. Especially if you're using consumer hardware, your PC may not boot if no graphics output is available at all. There's no need to attach a monitor however.
Do you currently have a separate NAS? If you currently have large data storage on your daily use machine, moving it to network-based storage enables you to access it from elsewhere in the house, and removes spinning rust as a noise source on your daily use machine. I'd recommend keeping this option open when selecting a case.
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I think pretty much all current Intel CPUs include onboard graphics, so that shouldn't be an issue. Intel onboard graphics is plenty good enough for regular desktop use.
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@dragnslcr The one issue is if the motherboard has the correct outputs. In my (limited) experience, the lower-end ones all have them, the ones that don't are either server-oriented or gaming-oriented.
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Ok, blakey sent me a link to a site that helps with this kind of thing, and here's what I have so far:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
Type Item Price CPU Intel - Core i5-8400 2.8GHz 6-Core Processor $179.00 @ Amazon CPU Cooler Cooler Master - Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler $29.99 @ Amazon Motherboard Gigabyte - Z370P D3 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard $99.99 @ Amazon Memory Crucial - Ballistix Sport LT 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2666 Memory $194.95 @ Amazon Storage Samsung - 850 EVO 500GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive $159.99 @ Amazon Case Corsair - 270R ATX Mid Tower Case $53.63 @ Amazon Power Supply EVGA - 400W ATX Power Supply $34.99 @ Amazon Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts Total $752.54 Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-03-29 21:52 EDT-0400 I didn't add any case fans because I'm super confused as to what will actually fit in the case and how many I need.
Am I missing anything important? Again, I've never done this before.
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edited by @pydsigner:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
Type Item Price CPU Intel - Core i5-8400 2.8GHz 6-Core Processor $179.00 @ Amazon CPU Cooler Cooler Master - Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler $29.99 @ Amazon Motherboard Gigabyte - Z370P D3 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard $99.99 @ Amazon Memory Crucial - Ballistix Sport LT 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2666 Memory $194.95 @ Amazon Storage Western Digital - Blue 500GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive $129.99 @ Amazon Case Corsair - 270R ATX Mid Tower Case $53.63 @ Amazon Power Supply EVGA - BQ 500W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply $39.99 @ Amazon Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts Total $727.54 Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-03-29 22:16 EDT-0400
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@ben_lubar My comments:
- That's a lot of money for RAM, isn't it? Isn't "Ballistix Sport" the gamer brand for people with more money than sense?
- That CPU is a boxed one from Intel, doesn't it come with a cooler? Why not save $30? EDIT: it also appears to be unlocked; if you can find the locked version (doesn't allow overclocking) you might save some $$$ EDIT EDIT: oh I guess it doesn't include a cooler, huh.
- Generally as a rule of thumb, I like to keep as few brands as possible in my computer, on the assumption that MSI tests their motherboard with MSI GPUs and MSI networks and etc.
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@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
That's a lot of money for RAM, isn't it?
https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/?compatible_with=V9WfrH#sort=ppgb&page=1
They're all about $10 per gigabyte (or more).
@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
it also appears to be unlocked
I'm pretty sure the unlocked Intel processors have a
K
at the end of their 4-digit number.
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PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
Type Item Price CPU Intel - Core i5-8400 2.8GHz 6-Core Processor $179.00 @ Amazon Motherboard Gigabyte - Z370P D3 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard $99.99 @ Amazon Memory Patriot - 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2133 Memory $154.99 @ Amazon Storage Western Digital - Blue 500GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive $129.99 @ Amazon Case Corsair - 270R ATX Mid Tower Case $53.63 @ Amazon Power Supply EVGA - BQ 500W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply $39.99 @ Amazon Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts Total $657.59 Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-03-29 22:29 EDT-0400
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@blakeyrat oh, I think that's because Amazon is considering the difference between different Intel 8th generation processors to be the same as the difference between different colors and sizes of t-shirts.
There are a bunch of reviews for i7's at the bottom of the page.
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
oh, I think that's because Amazon is considering the difference between different Intel 8th generation processors to be the same as the difference between different colors and sizes of t-shirts.
Maybe?
Like I told you, Amazon is a shitty site for PC parts.
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
I didn't add any case fans because I'm super confused as to what will actually fit in the case and how many I need.
If you want specs for things, go look at the entry at NewEgg. To wit:
Cooling System
120mm Fans
Front: 3 x 120mm or 2 x 140mm
Top: 2 x 120 / 140mm
Rear: 1 x 120mm (Included)If you're not loading it up with video cards or other garbage that blocks air flow, the power supply fan (which are intake fans on the bottom nowadays) and a top exhaust fan should be fine. Just clean the poor thing once in a while.
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@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Since you're not buying a GPU, make sure your motherboard has a built-in GPU.
Don't Intel CPUs come with builtin GPUs?
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@pie_flavor said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Since you're not buying a GPU, make sure your motherboard has a built-in GPU.
Don't Intel CPUs come with builtin GPUs?
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@blakeyrat great post, thanks. I'll actually be assembling a machine on Monday, this post has some nice pointers.
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@blakeyrat
RAM prices are also up quite a bit, there's been a big crunch in the parts for those (I'd guess because all internal storage now uses similar components, since SSDs have become mainstream).@ben_lubar
FWIW, the "Native" RAM speed for that CPU/Motherboard pairing is DDR4-2666, but from what I can see the pricing isn't going to be better on the 2666 RAM. Intels aren't as sensitive to mismatches as Ryzen CPUs are anyway, so the 2133 will probably work fine. But otherwise, the Crucial memory you had in the pydesigner version of the build is the budget "native" memory (you could potentially save some money as two individual 8GB sticks, at the small risk of having some inter-op problems if they turned out to be from different lots and decide that the other stick has cooties).
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Perhaps I'm when I build machines, but I just kind of favor Corsair products.
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@magus I have a buddy who buys Corsair for every item I buy from Coolermaster. It's kind of funny really.
Anyway his computer works fine so.
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@izzion said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
you could potentially save some money as two individual 8GB sticks
I'd be saving about 25 cents per gigabyte, or $4 total, on something that costs more than $150, and also risking that I'd have to send it back because they didn't work together. I'll pay the extra $4 to save myself some trouble.
Here's the list with the correct-speed RAM.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
Type Item Price CPU Intel - Core i5-8400 2.8GHz 6-Core Processor $179.00 @ Amazon Motherboard Gigabyte - Z370P D3 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard $110.76 @ Amazon Memory Crucial - Ballistix Sport LT 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2666 Memory $169.99 @ Amazon Storage Western Digital - Blue 500GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive $129.99 @ Amazon Case Corsair - 270R ATX Mid Tower Case $53.63 @ Amazon Power Supply EVGA - BQ 500W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply $39.99 @ Amazon Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts Total $683.36 Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-03-30 14:29 EDT-0400
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Total
$657.59@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Total
$683.36That went up by $15 because of the RAM change and the motherboard became like $11 more expensive for some reason overnight.
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
That went up by $15 because of the RAM change and the motherboard became like $11 more expensive for some reason overnight.
You should check those prices on NewEgg. It's not a given that Amazon will always have the lowest price on parts (although they average-out pretty well.)
Unless you're working off an Amazon gift card or something.
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https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/Individuals/SalesTaxHoliday.aspx
I wonder if it would be better to buy this in August.
I wonder if computer parts bought online actually count as "computers for personal use".
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/Individuals/SalesTaxHoliday.aspx
I wonder if it would be better to buy this in August.
I wonder if computer parts bought online actually count as "computers for personal use".
The only thing I see that's vaguely related to self-building a computer is "Cases for electronic devices" on the "not tax-exempt" list, but I assume that means stuff like laptop carrying cases and not tower cases.
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/Individuals/SalesTaxHoliday.aspx
I wonder if it would be better to buy this in August.
I wonder if computer parts bought online actually count as "computers for personal use".
I'm not a tax attorney, but I would think so, especially if you're buying all the parts for a computer (as opposed to something like just a new hard drive).
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@dragnslcr said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/Individuals/SalesTaxHoliday.aspx
I wonder if it would be better to buy this in August.
I wonder if computer parts bought online actually count as "computers for personal use".
I'm not a tax attorney, but I would think so, especially if you're buying all the parts for a computer (as opposed to something like just a new hard drive).
I also need to figure out whether this law makes all purchases tax-exempt or just purchases that happen inside a physical store inside Wisconsin.
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I guess this would be the same as the question "does this law about buying furniture in Wisconsin apply to mail-order IKEA furniture"
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
I guess this would be the same as the question "does this law about buying furniture in Wisconsin apply to mail-order IKEA furniture"
Only if they catch you? (like how we're (CA) supposed to report all mail order purchases so CA can tax us)
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
I wonder if computer parts bought online actually count as "computers for personal use".
If you buy online, wouldn't you have to buy from a Wisconsin company to get the tax break anyway? ... are there any?
If the company's store is in a state with a tit-for-tat tax agreement with Wisconsin I suppose they'd be technically obligated to give you the tax break, but good luck trying to explain that to them-- I virtually guarantee their system won't do it automatically and you'll need to engage support.
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@dcon are we actually? like if I order something off Amazon?
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@pie_flavor said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
@dcon are we actually? like if I order something off Amazon?
If they don't add the sales tax themselves (I think Amazon does) then yes, I believe in almost all the states it's then your responsibility to pay it (it may be referred to as a "use tax").
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@blakeyrat said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
I virtually guarantee their system won't do it automatically and you'll need to engage support.
Ooof! That'll suck for my company (well for me, who'll field all those calls from sales monkeys). Manual overrides for everyone.
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@ben_lubar
By the way, a nice way to cheaply get reliable machines with good CPUs and RAM is to buy aftermarket servers.
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@pie_flavor said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
@dcon are we actually? like if I order something off Amazon?
Amazon collects tax now, so for them, no. If you order from somewhere that doesn't collect tax, you're supposed to self-report it.
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Ok, I started a new part list from scratch:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
Type Item Price CPU Intel - Core i7-8700K 3.7GHz 6-Core Processor $347.00 @ Amazon CPU Cooler Cooler Master - Hyper T2 54.8 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler $16.99 @ Amazon Motherboard Gigabyte - H310M A Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard $55.23 @ Amazon Memory Corsair - Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-2133 Memory $289.99 @ Amazon Storage Inland - 240GB 2.5" Solid State Drive $42.99 @ Amazon Storage Seagate - Constellation ES 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive $61.27 @ Amazon Case Rosewill - FBM-X1 MicroATX Mini Tower Case $21.99 @ Amazon Power Supply EVGA - 500W 80+ Certified ATX Power Supply $39.99 @ Amazon Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts Total $875.45 Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-08-08 09:49 EDT-0400 My main concerns:
- I don't need a
K
Intel processor, but PCPartPicker doesn't show Amazon as selling the non-unlocked version. - PCPartPicker says the system will use a little over 200 watts, but the power supply is 500W. Should I go with a lower-wattage power supply or is that pointless?
- Do I need any other parts?
Additionally:
- I decided that this machine will also be used to store backups, so I'm going with an SSD for builds/OS/programs and a hard drive for "cold" storage.
- I missed the window for the weird tax thing, so that's irrelevant now.
- I don't need a
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
I don't need a K Intel processor, but PCPartPicker doesn't show Amazon as selling the non-unlocked version.
Not much in it by the look of it if Amazon is your preferred retailer.
@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
PCPartPicker says the system will use a little over 200 watts, but the power supply is 500W. Should I go with a lower-wattage power supply or is that pointless?
It's a cheap (but OK) power supply anyway so I doubt you'll be able to save much. The bargain-bin ones are definitely best avoided anyway.
@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Do I need any other parts?
No optical drive listed, did you want one?
No SATA cables listed, the drives won't come with them.
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
Storage Seagate
I've only had bad experience with Seagate.
For me it's WD (except the green ones) or nothing
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@ben_lubar said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
PCPartPicker says the system will use a little over 200 watts, but the power supply is 500W. Should I go with a lower-wattage power supply or is that pointless?
If you care about power efficiency, that 80% efficiency certification only requires 80% efficiency above some minimum load level (80% of rated, I believe). Efficiency is typically much lower when the PSU is at very low load compared to its rated maximum; a 100W PSU will typically be more efficient than a 500W PSU at a 25W office-worker load.
Though the problem with that reasoning is that 'office-worker load' is so low compared to theoretical maximum load of the components that you never get to the good efficiency.
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@Weng suggested I go with AMD instead, so here's that build:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
Type Item Price CPU AMD - FX-8350 4GHz 8-Core Processor $92.95 @ Amazon Motherboard Asus - M5A78L-M PLUS/USB3 Micro ATX AM3+ Motherboard $59.99 @ Amazon Memory G.Skill - Ripjaws X Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 Memory $273.86 @ Amazon Storage Inland - 240GB 2.5" Solid State Drive $42.99 @ Amazon Storage Seagate - Constellation ES 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive $61.27 @ Amazon Case Rosewill - FBM-X1 MicroATX Mini Tower Case $21.99 @ Amazon Power Supply EVGA - 500W 80+ Certified ATX Power Supply $39.99 @ Amazon Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts Total $593.04 Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-08-08 10:14 EDT-0400
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@ben_lubar FX-8350 is pretty old. I think I have one lying around somewhere but IIRC it's missing pins because the AMD-provided thermal paste turned into glue and ripped the CPU out of the socket when I removed the heatsink for cleaning.
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@TimeBandit said in In which Ben Lubar builds a new headless Linux machine:
I've only had bad experience with Seagate.
I've had bad experiences with external hard drives in general, so I don't know whether Seagate was the problem in that situation, but:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
Type Item Price CPU AMD - FX-8350 4GHz 8-Core Processor $92.95 @ Amazon Motherboard Asus - M5A78L-M PLUS/USB3 Micro ATX AM3+ Motherboard $59.99 @ Amazon Memory G.Skill - Ripjaws X Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 Memory $273.86 @ Amazon Storage Inland - 240GB 2.5" Solid State Drive $42.99 @ Amazon Storage Western Digital - Blue 3TB 3.5" 5400RPM Internal Hard Drive $91.99 @ Amazon Case Rosewill - FBM-X1 MicroATX Mini Tower Case $21.99 @ Amazon Power Supply EVGA - 500W 80+ Certified ATX Power Supply $39.99 @ Amazon Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts Total $623.76 Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-08-08 10:18 EDT-0400
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@ben_lubar A few comments:
- Rosewill cases are garbage
- In general, I like to keep components the same brand as much as possible on the theory that maybe Gigabyte tested their motherboard with a Gigabyte power supply but certainly didn't test with a EVGA power supply. You have a different brand for literally every component listed.
- I've never heard of "Inland" brand flash memory. Personally I'd spend a bit more and get a trustworthy brand, or at least one that's been around for awhile. Remember when a SSD dies, your data all goes poof instantly, it's not gradual like a spinning drive.
- Your PSU is probably fine for that machine, but keep in mind if you want to add a GPU later you might need more PSU juice. You might also look up how many watts a i7 will suck down at full throttle, but I'm sure 500W has enough headroom for it to be no big deal. 80+ is like the least efficient PSU rating, so if you want to save power you might look for a PSU with a higher rating. (Gold or Platinum.)