Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths
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@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@LB_ said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@masonwheeler said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@anonymous234 said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
On a related note, keeping "lists of shame" for software projects should be more common. I've been meaning to make and publish one for video games that fail to support alt tab, screen resolutions, and windowed mode properly.
And ALT-F4. Any program that doesn't interpret a request to close as a request to close and respond appropriately is in a state not easily distinguishable from malware.
Any game where Alt+F4 doesn't shut down immediately bypassing autosave is pure evil.
Undertale. Actually it might handle sudden power loss by assuming guilty until proven innocent, not sure.
As I said, games that do that are evil.
I've only ever seen one game that does that and it's Animal Crossing.
Actually, if you count multiplayer games with matchmaking based on a rating system, pretty much all of those would fit that description.
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@ben_lubar when you Alt+F4 Counter-Strike Dedicated Server, it doesn't save any extra info to make you feel bad next time you run it. Same with most other games.
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@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@ben_lubar when you Alt+F4 Counter-Strike Dedicated Server, it doesn't save any extra info to make you feel bad next time you run it. Same with most other games.
I was referring to the clients. If you Alt+F4 a Counter-Strike client during a ranked match, you get penalized for leaving, and power outages also count as abandoning a match.
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@asdf said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@blakeyrat Pro tip: Never take any of
fbmacboomzilla's alts seriously. It's a lot better for your personal well-being; he's always trolling.FTFY
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@ben_lubar said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@ben_lubar when you Alt+F4 Counter-Strike Dedicated Server, it doesn't save any extra info to make you feel bad next time you run it. Same with most other games.
I was referring to the clients.
Clients have no game state to save, so
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
I've posted that exact same sentiment like 47 times here. Why do you think I'm a body snatcher?
Because the real @blakeyrat has posted "like 47 times here" the sentiment that command lines are horrible and GUIs are the way to write a user interface.
/me throws garlic at bodysnatcher!Blakey
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@masonwheeler rite, as in rite of passage?
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@Gąska *whistles innocently*
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@hungrier said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
That is the problem and therefore it is not recommended to use special characters like (for example) á or ä or ß or or or (many languages are knowing special characters).
FUCK YOU. Anyone who still treats "special" characters as second class, a full decade after UTF-8 overtook all other encodings in popularity, deserves contempt on a personal level.
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@powerlord said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Gąska https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMfZwH39c-s
In case you don't want to watch the video, it's talking about how exclusive mode makes a performance difference in a game released only a few months ago using the Unity engine on older computers.
And it does so without providing any data, or even a single witness account. It's the same kind of optimization as using linked lists instead of arrays when you frequently add and delete in the middle - yes, it has theoretical basis, yes, it used to have measurable impact, no, it's not relevant today, no, you're not going to see negative impact either because your program doesn't use that many resources anyway.
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@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Any game where Alt+F4 doesn't shut down immediately bypassing autosave is pure evil.
I always just use Task Manager+End Process to evade autosave.
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@masonwheeler said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
I've posted that exact same sentiment like 47 times here. Why do you think I'm a body snatcher?
Because the real @blakeyrat has posted "like 47 times here" the sentiment that command lines are horrible and GUIs are the way to write a user interface.
/me throws garlic at bodysnatcher!Blakey
Because Blakey has ragequit the thread, I'll answer for him (though not in his style - can't copy that):
"command lines are horrible and GUIs are the way to go" and "command lines are user interfaces. Programs should be using them to talk to users" are not contradictory sentiments.
(Unless you misread the second sentiment by putting stress on "them" instead of on "talk to users").
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@hungrier said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
So one of the guys in that XAMPP thread replied and oh boy
And later he admits he isn't affiliated with the project. So effectively a troll.
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@CreatedToDislikeThis said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Any game where Alt+F4 doesn't shut down immediately bypassing autosave is pure evil.
I always just use Task Manager+End Process to evade autosave.
That's slower than Alt+F4. You might not exit in time before death or whatever.
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@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
You might not exit in time before death or whatever.
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@ben_lubar That's also find-specific.
Now try to make this work in a whitespace-proof way:
$ rm `tar -tf archive.tar`
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@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@masonwheeler said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@anonymous234 said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
On a related note, keeping "lists of shame" for software projects should be more common. I've been meaning to make and publish one for video games that fail to support alt tab, screen resolutions, and windowed mode properly.
And ALT-F4. Any program that doesn't interpret a request to close as a request to close and respond appropriately is in a state not easily distinguishable from malware.
Any game where Alt+F4 doesn't shut down immediately bypassing autosave is pure evil.
FFXIV:ARR. OK, it's an MMORPG so it doesn't have autosave as such (or at least it doesn't have any way to bypass it), but it ignores Alt+F4 anyway.
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@Greybeard said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
later he admits he isn't affiliated with the project. So effectively a troll.
Not to mention this in one of his posts:
If you dont understand that, dont run a webserver. There are plenty of cheap preconfigured webservers out there, go and pick one of them.
but this in the next:
Its a bit confusing why you dont install Apache etc. from scratch, instead you use a distribution what is meant for noobs and comes with a bunch of limitations.
Rather missing the point once more to boot.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
because projects run by assholes like this are open source projects 100% of the time
Like you've never seen a company fuck with their users.
@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
What I don't get is why dickhole there typed that long paragraph instead of just typing "fuck you", which is obviously what he was trying to communicate.
Most of the time we needed something from some commercial support line, they responded with similar paragraph saying "fuck you" in a roundabout way. And while Android counts as “open source”, the Samsung stuff or the Apple stuff and such we used definitely doesn't. Because most companies prefer explaining why something is not a bug over, like, doing some work. And for understandable (though not always correct) reasons.
@Medinoc said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
The hard part is that nx expects escaped spaces in command lines, whereas Windows expects quoted arguments (with a way to escape quotes, further complicating the stuff).
No. The hard part is that while Unix reasonably passes the arguments as list of strings both to the API in the parent process and to the new process, Windows pass the arguments as one string and while they have standard, but optional unquoting function, they don't even provide the corresponding quoting function! So while on Unix, passing the parameters so they came out right on the other end is trivial (you should not be invoking through shell most of the time), doing it on Windows is virtually impossible.
@anonymous234 said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Anyone who still treats "special" characters as second class, a full decade after UTF-8 overtook all other encodings in popularity, deserves contempt on a personal level.
There is a problem that different systems deal with them in different ways. URLs and Unix paths are byte strings, encoding is left to the application (browsers do seem to assume UTF-8 these days). Windows paths are UTF-16 (more precisely WTF-16; invalid codes are permitted) with support for transcoding to legacy 8-bit encodings, but generally not UTF-8, and MacOS paths are UTF-8 (and normalization-non-preserving). The result is that portable web server has to deal with quirks of each system for transcoding between URLs and paths.
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@Bulb said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Windows paths are UTF-16 (more precisely
WTF-16UCS-2; invalid UTF-16 codes are permitted as they are valid UCS-2 codes)FTFY ;)
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@Bulb said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Like you've never seen a company fuck with their users.
Companies don't tend to survive if they're as actively outright hostile as some open source maintainers, some of whom seem to really hate the idea of any actual users coming along and ruining their magnificent product by actually using it and reporting bugs
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@RaceProUK said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Windows paths are UTF-16 (more precisely
WTF-16UCS-2; invalid UTF-16 codes are permitted as they are valid UCS-2 codes)It's not exactly UCS-2. UCS-2 implies only basic multilingual plane is supported. But most of the system does support extended planes and treats correct surrogate pairs as expected. It just permits invalid surrogate sequences.
@Jaloopa said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Companies don't tend to survive if they're as actively outright hostile as some open source maintainers, some of whom seem to really hate the idea of any actual users coming along and ruining their magnificent product by actually using it and reporting bugs
Yeah, companies are more diplomatic about it. But the practical effect is the same—the bugs are not fixed.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@dkf said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
No.
Command lines are a user interface. Programs should be using them to talk to users. Not other programs. (The exception here might be PowerShell, which is legit designed to serve both purposes.)
It's common sense that programs shouldn't be talking to each other over a user interface. The only reason Linux programs need to is because they've gone decades without writing any equivalent to WSH or AppleScript (or whatever Apple calls that now, Automator?), something every other OS has had since the mid-90s.
Even so, they could still do IPC over sockets, or by building applications as shared libraries and linking into those. Developers are just too fucking lazy.
Command lines may be user interfaces, but they're by definition computer-readable, which makes them de facto computer-writable as well. What's much wronger is communicating via text over one program's Standard Output.
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@Bulb said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@RaceProUK said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Windows paths are UTF-16 (more precisely
WTF-16UCS-2; invalid UTF-16 codes are permitted as they are valid UCS-2 codes)It's not exactly UCS-2. UCS-2 implies only basic multilingual plane is supported. But most of the system does support extended planes and treats correct surrogate pairs as expected. It just permits invalid surrogate sequences.
Ah yes, I remember now: it's UCS-2 interpreted as UTF-16.
Hmm... I guess you could call it WTF-16 after all
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@RaceProUK Note that in this case ‘WTF’ stands for “wobbly transformation format”.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Command lines are a user interface.
Depends on the command. Unix has many commands that are expected to be mainly used in scripts. But then, in Unix the command-line is passed as list of strings all the way, so there is actually no problem getting the exact content through.
@blakeyrat said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
The exception here might be PowerShell, which is legit designed to serve both purposes.
So was BourneShell in Unix.
And note that while the object-based approach of PowerShell should be better than the pure string-based approach of BourneShell, even people who know PowerShell quite a bit often say it is write-only because of all the “automagic”. The BourneShell approach is kludgey, but easier to debug.
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@Bulb said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
And note that while the object-based approach of PowerShell should be better than the pure string-based approach of BourneShell,
bash could work with json objects in stdin and stdout, and it would be the same thing as PowerShell.
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@Dreikin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
*nix is far more permissive than Windows. Any valid Windows path is a valid *nix path (at least on the most common variety: linux).
Actually, if you try fill path in Japanese windows to installer of Linux, it will just install everything on the same folder level with path becoming part of filename.
That's why so many Windows programs need special handling when plan to support Japanese path, and that's why if your programming language have libraries supports path parsing function, you should never try to parse path yourself. :P
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@cheong if you have Windows, why would you install Linux?
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@cheong said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Actually, if you try fill path in Japanese windows to installer of Linux
What is installer of Linux? There are many Linux-based operating systems and each has different installer and none of them is actually called Linux.
And yes, Linux is more permissive. However, it is also very incompatible, because Windows store directory entry names in WTF-16 and recode them to the legacy encodings in the 8-bit API version, while Linux simply stores them as byte strings and allows all bytes except 0x0 and 0x2f, except where restricted by specific filesystem driver. Which also means for Linux there is no “Japanese”, because Linux (note: not the operating system; that one still may) does not assign any meanings to the byte strings.
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@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@cheong if you have Windows, why would you install Linux?
I'm just saying "Any valid Windows path is a valid *nix path" is wrong. It's a matter of whether the OS and the software know how to handle it.
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@cheong said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
I'm just saying "Any valid Windows path is a valid *nix path" is wrong.
Ignoring the drive specifier, no it's not. The list of valid Windows characters is a subset of what unix allows.
It's a matter of whether the OS
not an issue
and the software know how to handle it.
And here we have the issue. Crappy software. Period. End of story.
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@Bulb said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
What is installer of Linux?
Those package managers. If you use options like "--relocate" to change the installation path, it'll be passed to whatever installation script that configures it. If the script don't handle the path correctly, post-installation step will break.
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@cheong said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Bulb said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
What is installer of Linux?
Those package managers. If you use options like "--relocate" to change the installation path, it'll be passed to whatever installation script that configures it. If the script don't handle the path correctly, post-installation step will break.
It's still a valid path - it's a problem with the installer, not the kernel or filesystem. Probably related to the above demonstrated issues with proper escaping/encapsulating of paths when used in shell scripts.
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@dcon said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Ignoring the drive specifier, no it's not. The list of valid Windows characters is a subset of what unix allows.
Don't ignore the drive specifier - that's valid too.
C:
should be fine to make as a folder.
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@Dreikin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@dcon said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Ignoring the drive specifier, no it's not. The list of valid Windows characters is a subset of what unix allows.
Don't ignore the drive specifier - that's valid too.
C:
should be fine to make as a folder.Sorry, can you show how you managed to create such a directory on Windows 10?
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@LB_ said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Dreikin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@dcon said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Ignoring the drive specifier, no it's not. The list of valid Windows characters is a subset of what unix allows.
Don't ignore the drive specifier - that's valid too.
C:
should be fine to make as a folder.Sorry, can you show how you managed to create such a directory on Windows 10?
Unless my context got corrupted, we're talking about making that on linux, not Windows.
But no need to demonstrate - it's the default folder for containing your Windows installation.
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@Dreikin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@LB_ said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Dreikin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@dcon said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Ignoring the drive specifier, no it's not. The list of valid Windows characters is a subset of what unix allows.
Don't ignore the drive specifier - that's valid too.
C:
should be fine to make as a folder.Sorry, can you show how you managed to create such a directory on Windows 10?
Unless my context got corrupted, we're talking about making that on linux, not Windows.
But no need to demonstrate - it's the default folder for containing your Windows installation.
Not only that, but you can create files with backslashes in their names on Linux.
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@Grunnen said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@ben_lubar That's also find-specific.
Now try to make this work in a whitespace-proof way:
$ rm `tar -tf archive.tar`
#!/usr/bin/env python3 import tarfile, os with tarfile.open('./file.tar', 'r') as f: for name in f.getnames(): os.unlink(name)
It's 2017, why are you still writing shell scripts for anything non-trivial?
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@cark said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
It's 2017, why are you still writing shell scripts for anything non-trivial?
Well, that shell script looks a like a lot less to type!
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@dcon said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@cark said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
It's 2017, why are you still writing shell scripts for anything non-trivial?
Well, that shell script looks a like a lot less to type!
It's also (apparently) broken so...
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@cark said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Grunnen said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@ben_lubar That's also find-specific.
Now try to make this work in a whitespace-proof way:
$ rm `tar -tf archive.tar`
#!/usr/bin/env python3 import tarfile, os with tarfile.open('./file.tar', 'r') as f: for name in f.getnames(): os.unlink(name)
It's 2017, why are you still writing shell scripts for anything non-trivial?
That's still a shell script. Any text file that starts with
#!/
is a shell script.
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@ben_lubar said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
Any text file that starts with #!/ is a shell script.
Any file that starts with that is a script. It'd need to be executing with something that calls itself a shell for it to be a shell script. (For example, you can use it with Perl and then it would be a perl script since nobody sane calls Perl a shell.)
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@Dreikin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
But no need to demonstrate - it's the default folder for containing your Windows installation.
I consider a drive to be different from a directory, because you can have multiple directories with the same name, but only one
C:
drive.
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@LB_ said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Dreikin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
But no need to demonstrate - it's the default folder for containing your Windows installation.
I consider a drive to be different from a directory, because you can have multiple directories with the same name, but only one
C:
drive.I once had Windows 7 and Windows 8 in a dual-boot configuration, each on different drives, yet both showed themselves as installed on the
C:
drive, which means I technically had twoC:
drives.
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@LB_ said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Dreikin said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
But no need to demonstrate - it's the default folder for containing your Windows installation.
I consider a drive to be different from a directory, because you can have multiple directories with the same name, but only one
C:
drive.The point is it's still a valid path on *nix, which in keeping with the theme of *nix being more permissive even allows you to have more than one path starting with
C:
.
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@RaceProUK Does a disk partition have a mapping to a drive letter if the operating system isn't running? What is the sound of one hand clapping?
@Dreikin I never doubted it being a valid path on *nix.
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@LB_ said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
@Dreikin I never doubted it being a valid path on *nix.
Sure, I was just saying that the way Windows handles it (a unique, one-time-use foldername with special requirements) isn't contrary to the point I was making, in relation to the original craptastic answers by the XAMPP forum people, in particular:
These single components are programmed primarily on and for *nix based systems and because of that are sometimes only able to work on *nix friendly path names.
*nix is far more permissive than Windows. Any valid Windows path is a valid *nix path (at least on the most common variety: linux).
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@Dreikin ah, I got confused when there was "The list of valid Windows characters is a subset of what unix allows." followed by "
C:
should be fine to make as a folder." - my bad.