POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY
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@Rhywden going blind in one eye also probably gives you cancer
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@Rhywden said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
You're quoting the DailyFail here.
Unfortunately that's what everyone says but no one bothers to debunk their bullshit so it goes unchallenged and becomes the main topic of discussion.
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@Captain said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Short term jump in demand in the reinsurance market.
Short term? It's been 3 years!
@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
No, now he just pays for birth control coverage that he'll never use.
Gotta love one-size-fits-all coverage. My mom currently has no choice but to carry a policy that covers expenses for birth control, pregnancy, delivery, and abortion... despite being post-menopausal. Can someone please explain how that makes any sense whatsoever?
Funny, the news reports all say it's because the insurance companies are losing too much money in the exchanges. They can't afford to participate. But yeah, let's go with your theory that the biggest insurers who should be best able to handle the market are getting squeezed out of the exchanges because of "inefficiencies".
My theory works a lot better: The health insurance system is a massive fraud from beginning to end, as evidenced by the fact that when they're forced to even begin to have to start looking a tiny bit like they're actually doing the job they're supposed to be doing, their entire business model becomes unsustainable.
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@masonwheeler one might even argue that the whole concept of private insurance companies as the main model for healthcare is
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
My theory works a lot better: The health insurance system is a massive fraud from beginning to end, as evidenced by the fact that when they're forced to even begin to have to start looking a tiny bit like they're actually doing the job they're supposed to be doing, their entire business model becomes unsustainable.
All of which makes me wonder where all that money is going. You simply can't vanish a sixth of US GDP; that money must be employing people, getting invested, transferred to purchasing goods, etc. Look at the profile of who is profiting excessively from this sort of thing (probably by comparison with other countries) and you'll have the start of a handle on who is actually defrauding whom. In particular, is it hospitals, doctors, insurance companies, drug makers, device makers, etc.? Until someone figures out where the real problem lies at the systemic level, all attempted corrective actions will only ever be right by accident at best.
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@Jaloopa said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@masonwheeler one might even argue that the whole concept of private insurance companies as the main model for healthcare is
It's a lot more sinister than simply
; it's a deliberate takeover of the medical industry by the financial industry.- Convince people that healthcare prices are too high, and insurance is needed.
- Get large employers on board, providing health insurance for their employees, then use that competitive advantage as leverage to get smaller employers to sign up too.
- Once you have a critical mass of insured populace, you're paying all the bills at the hospital. You know what you call the guy who pays all the bills? "Boss." Especially when you can decide which bills to pay and which ones not to pay!
- Collude with hospitals to raise the cost of health care in order to price the competition out of the market. (Note: 'the competition' here isn't other health insurance providers; it's people who pay out-of-pocket.)
- ??? ??? ??? ???
- Profit!
- Play God as your leverage now puts you in a position to literally decide who lives and who dies.
People think that Wall Street's exploitation of loans is bad, but it's got nothing on their exploitation of health care!
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Convince people that healthcare prices are too high, and
insurancegovernment funded healthcare is neededDone
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@dkf said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
You simply can't vanish a sixth of US GDP
Indeed. Historically, medical spending is 3-4% of U.S. GDP, so the fact that it's now at least five times as much - and BY FAR the largest portion of budgets at all levels of government in the U.S. - should be of serious concern.
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Collude with hospitals to raise the cost of health care in order to price the competition out of the market. (Note: 'the competition' here isn't other health insurance providers; it's people who pay out-of-pocket.)
I love that this is literally true. There's a hospital chargemaster who decides how much stuff costs. Insurance companies get 75% off or more, pretty regularly, because they can 'bargain'.
So all costs get multiplied by 300% pre-bargaining.
The upside is once you get a 400$ bill for an Ace bandage from the ER and you don't have insurance, you can often just call the hospital and say "look, that's ridiculous. I'm sending you 40$ and we can both drop it" and they'll just accept that. They weren't expecting anyone to pay 400$ for an ace bandage. It was their opening bid in a constant negotiation with insurance companies.
It's an incredibly stupid system, as is. The ACA band-aided a few problems. It's not perfect or even good, but it's something.
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
as evidenced by the fact that when they're forced to even begin to have to start looking a tiny bit like they're actually doing the job they're supposed to be doing, their entire business model becomes unsustainable.
I could argue the same thing by a number of pooled resources, like ... social security.
There is a way to do insurance right.
Co-ops, credit unions, etc, all exist.
@dkf said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Until someone figures out where the real problem lies at the systemic level, all attempted corrective actions will only ever be right by accident at best.
More reasonable line of thought.
@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Collude with hospitals to raise the cost of health care in order to price the competition out of the market.
Not quite that simple.
I talked with one of the CFOs of a major hospital network in the NW Houston area. (On a cruise no less).
He lamented that it was hell in a handbag to get the insurance company to pay him, after the insurance said they made an agreement with the patient, meaning the hospital can't charge the patient.
So the insurance companies rip off the actual practitioners as well.
So, collusion theory is only partially confirmed.
@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Play God as your leverage now puts you in a position to literally decide who lives and who dies.
I'm confused as to why this FUD never comes up with liberals in a single payer system.
Why is government so much more trustworthy than private?
If you think they don't earn profit, then you don't really understand how the campaign money laundering works.
@lolwhat said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
BY FAR the largest portion of budgets at all levels of government in the U.S.
There is definitely a mixed bag of corruption, from insurance, to pharma, to politicians, to medical providers.
<satire>But there are legit reasons as well. With healthcare advancing in tech, and the tech getting more expensive, at least some of that rise in costs is explained by those evil old people who want to hold onto life when it is their time to die, that they soak up 95% of the healthcare costs in their last two years.
Old people should just kys.
</satire>
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
I love that this is literally true. There's a hospital chargemaster who decides how much stuff costs. Insurance companies get 75% off or more, pretty regularly, because they can 'bargain'.
So all costs get multiplied by 300% pre-bargaining.Not entirely how it works.
You see, the ACA mandates that the out-of-network costs be fixed nonnegotiable prices handed down by insurance (I'm betting they are market fixed prices)
"Private insurance companies are evil" -Obama
private insurance companies clapping and nodding in support of ACA
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
I'm confused as to why this FUD never comes up with liberals in a single payer system.
Why is government so much more trustworthy than private?Because even the most corrupt government has a vested interest in keeping its populace alive and healthy.
For-profit health care is inherently a conflict of interest: you make more money by dragging out someone's misery over a long period of treatment, (their entire life, if possible,) than you do by curing them quickly. This is why you get so many pharma companies working as hard as they can right now on cancer treatments that will reduce it to a chronic condition. That--not cures--is the current holy grail of oncology research: produce a pill that they'll have to keep buying from you for the rest of their lives.
That's a disgusting, evil system that needs to die in a fire.
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
It's an incredibly stupid system, as is. The ACA band-aided a few problems. It's not perfect or even good, but it's something.
I haven't gone over the number of fingers on one hand what they've made better.
But I don't have enough fingers and toes combined for what they've made worse.
Like I said before, a less intrusive bill could have solved all the problems that ACA actually solved.
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
"Private insurance companies are evil" -Obama
private insurance companies clapping and nodding in support of ACAInsurance companies love it. In exchange for covering the expensive people, they get to cover everyone. It's a wash for profits, but they get extra market share for free.
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Like I said before, a less intrusive bill could have solved all the problems that ACA actually solved.
Oh then by all means, let's be Republicans and repeal it and start all over again from scratch, that is surely a sensible way to move forward.
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Because even the most corrupt government has a vested interest in keeping its populace alive and healthy.
I could apply the same argument to insurance companies that collect premiums.
@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
For-profit health care is inherently a conflict of interest: you make more money by dragging out someone's misery over a long period of treatment, (their entire life, if possible,) than you do by curing them quickly. This is why you get so many pharma companies working as hard as they can right now on cancer treatments that will reduce it to a chronic condition. That--not cures--is the current holy grail of oncology research: produce a pill that they'll have to keep buying from you for the rest of their lives.
Yeah, and people with those conditions and those half treatments can still vote and work.
You still haven't made an argument that makes government more trustworthy.
But, it's ok, the numbers on Medicare denied claims and their actual coverage prior to ACA proves you wrong anyway.
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@blakeyrat said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Oh then by all means, let's be Republicans and repeal it and start all over again from scratch, that is surely a sensible way to move forward.
False dilemma
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@xaade Yes, please, just downvote... don't put any effort into showing how government is better.
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Before I landed a job as a developer, I paid the bills working at a chemical dependency clinic (ie. we helped drug addicts get clean). In an environment like that you learn things about the real impact of drugs on real people's lives that you would never hear from the purveyors of pro-legalization propaganda.
I think it's strange that people claim to know everything they need to know about drugs from working at a job that places them around addicts - healthcare, law enforcement, etc. You're working at a job that, by design, only shows you the people who went way too far on drugs and destroyed their lives, so you assume that everyone who touches drugs does that. You never see how many people use all of these drugs casually and still hold down normal jobs and live normal lives.
I think you don't know shit about drugs until you've spent a lot of time around casual users too.
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@ufmace said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
I think you don't know shit about drugs until you've spent a lot of time around casual users too.
I've spent plenty of time around both, while not being a user.
Very few people show both an interest in legalizing, while also producing concepts that make drug use safer.
Very few...
I have respect for the people that consider both sides of the argument though.
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
This is why you get so many pharma companies working as hard as they can right now on cancer treatments that will reduce it to a chronic condition. That--not cures--is the current holy grail of oncology research: produce a pill that they'll have to keep buying from you for the rest of their lives.
I'm not sure why you think this. Pharma companies spend just an absolutely absurd amount on baldness research, so I'm not going to argue for their investment wisdom, but 'chronic cancer' is impossible. Cancer is an unstable state. It either becomes 'death' or 'no cancer'.
It is also one of the easiest drug markets to test on, because stuff doesn't really have to be safe, it just has to be safer than certain death.
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
This is why you get so many pharma companies working as hard as they can right now on cancer treatments that will reduce it to a chronic condition. That--not cures--is the current holy grail of oncology research: produce a pill that they'll have to keep buying from you for the rest of their lives.
I'm not sure why you think this.
...maybe because they brag about it to investors on conference calls?
Pharma companies spend just an absolutely absurd amount on baldness research, so I'm not going to argue for their investment wisdom, but 'chronic cancer' is impossible. Cancer is an unstable state. It either becomes 'death' or 'no cancer'.
Yeah, if it were easy to turn it into a chronic condition, they wouldn't have to put much research into it, now would they?
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Cancer is an unstable state. It either becomes 'death' or 'no cancer'.
Homeopathy has some cures, which led to tin foil hat theories that pharma MUST know real cures and they buried it in area 51... with the aliens.
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
they brag about it to investors on conference calls
I'm going to go with 'people say a lot of things'. Nobody who knows what they're talking about would say that to someone who knows what they're talking about. If someone told me they were working on such a thing I'd have two questions: 1) How? 2) Does anyone else know you're selling fairy dust?
I've always thought it weird we have research-based drug companies. It's hugely inefficient, they never compare notes, we spend a lot of money at corporate rates duplicating the same work on possible hair loss drugs, and they have huge libraries of possible antibiotics they won't share with anyone because it cost them billions+decades to get the libraries in the first place and even though it's inefficient to actually test the library for activity(for complicated reasons) they won't share the library with scientists(
pick me pick me) so we can test it for them.Public universities are really cheap places to do science. Labor is either grossly undervalued or actually free, and research is 90% labor.
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Homeopathy has some cures
No it doesn't.
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
...maybe because they brag about it to investors on conference calls?
They may brag about getting people on long term pills, but that doesn't mean there's a cure that they buried.
And even if they do brag, it doesn't mean that people haven't spent effort on making pills that try to relieve as much misery as possible.
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
It is also one of the easiest drug markets to test on, because stuff doesn't really have to be safe, it just has to be safer than certain death.
There's quite a few cancers in older people (e.g., people over 80) where we simply shouldn't treat them. They're growing so slowly that the likelihood of them causing trouble before the person dies of some other cause is really minimal.
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Public universities are really cheap places to do science. Labor is either grossly undervalued or actually free, and research is 90% labor.
And neither of the two actually produced the biggest leaps in medical science we have.
Which were both produced by.
- Random person that got lucky through persistent hard work. (Penicillin: EDIT: ok, the language was confusing when I looked him up. There are better examples)
- War crimes. Research on live humans captured in war. (Japan WWII)
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@Captain said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Wankers, fear the Trump: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-pledge-against-pornography_us_57a00928e4b0e2e15eb701fc
Anybody actually read this article? Sounds like crap journalism to me. The only real news is that Trump apparently signed a pledge from some group called "Enough is Enough", who sound like anti-porn nutjobs. All of the quotes are from the Enough is Enough nutjobs. But this pledge basically just says that he will enforce child porn laws and:
Give serious consideration to appointing a Presidential Commission to examine the
harmful public health impact of Internet pornography on youth, families and the American
culture and the prevention of the sexual exploitation of children in the digital age.About as vague and meaningless as it gets. I don't see any evidence that he has even considered any kind of anti-porn agenda. HuffPost is trying to twist signing a vague pledge into broad support of this group.
I'm pretty sure that political candidates for all offices get kazillions of these pledge requests from all sorts of groups. They often sign them to try and look good on various issues, but they're hardly campaign planks or serious policy proposals.
Sadly, this is pretty typical of anti-Trump journalism. Find some meaningless bullshit, blow it way out of proportion and declare that you've discovered the real Trump that he's been hiding all along.
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@dkf said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
There's quite a few cancers in older people (e.g., people over 80) where we simply shouldn't treat them. They're growing so slowly that the likelihood of them causing trouble before the person dies of some other cause is really minimal.
Good luck not sounding like a death panel (private insurance or government single payer).
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@Khudzlin said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
The other solution has been tried in the US and has failed miserably. It's called the Prohibition.
Well, it only failed in the same sense the marijuana prohibition is failing.
It does reduce availability, but not really enough to make a big change and at a huge cost (in terms of money and people jailed).
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Random person that got lucky through persistent hard work. (Penicillin)
Go look up where Sir Alexander Fleming worked.
Go on, I'll wait.
(He was a professor at St. Mary's medical school, part of London University. He worked in vaccine research, mostly, but he did discover the lysozyme pre-penicillin. )
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Homeopathy has some cures
No it doesn't.
@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
And neither of the two actually produced the biggest leaps in medical science we have.
Which were both produced by.
- Random person that got lucky through persistent hard work. (Penicillin)
- War crimes. Research on live humans captured in war. (Japan WWII)
Which of those categories does Jonas Salk, the guy whose work has saved more lives than anyone in the history of medicine before or since, belong in?
...oh, wait. He was an academic researcher.
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Go look up where Sir Alexander Fleming worked.
Yeah, at a Hospital. Post graduation.
It's not a really good example, because it's hard to tell where the hospital part started and the school part ended.
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Which of those categories does Jonas Salk, the guy whose work has saved more lives than anyone in the history of medicine before or since, belong in?
That's not a biggest leap though.
It's certainly notable, but it comes after three other notable vaccines.
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Yeah, at a Hospital. Post graduation.
It's not a really good example, because it's hard to tell where the hospital part started and the school part ended.Real talk, are you on crack? He was a research professor, doing research, at a medical school that's part of London University. The second-largest university in England. He published a bunch of papers. One does not discover lysozyme as a 100% practicing MD. Generally practicing MDs don't publish papers very often.
He was looking for things that could destroy bacteria(you could even say "researching" them), because he was a bacteriologist.
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
We got the lightbulb through research.
I got mine from the grocery store.
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
London University. The second-largest university in England
It's not really one university, but several that barely manage to cooperate enough to even have a common formal degree awarding process, and that's just the ceremonial stuff. It's definitely not a single university for the purpose of actual teaching, research or administration…
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
And neither of the two actually produced the biggest leaps in medical science we have.
Jenner was a doctor, not a professor, but Salk, Fleming, Crick/Watson, and Banting/Macleod all worked at universities.
That's polio, the first antibiotics, DNA(shout-out to Franklin), and insulin. I'm pretty sure that covers the top contenders for 'biggest leap' both in number of lives saved and foundational understanding.
On the other hand, the lightbulb was a private entrepreneurial lab. Edison funded the whole thing. Although really he didn't invent shit, the russian patent on the exact same thing was filed in 1874. Edison didn't even start research until 1878.
Man what is going on here? Are you feeling ok?
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Yeah, at a Hospital. Post graduation.
It's not a really good example, because it's hard to tell where the hospital part started and the school part ended.Real talk, are you on crack? He was a research professor, doing research, at a medical school that's part of London University. The second-largest university in England. He published a bunch of papers. One does not discover lysozyme as a 100% practicing MD. Generally practicing MDs don't publish papers very often.
He was looking for things that could destroy bacteria(you could even say "researching" them), because he was a bacteriologist.
I'm sorry, but the language on the internet is terrible.
St. Mary's is both a hospital and a college.
The hospital has a research department.
He worked for the research department.After his discovery of the vaccine, he switched to being a professor at the St. Mary's Hospital School, college.
Was the research funded by the earnings from the college or the hospital or charitable donations? Probably a mix of all three.
So, it was a bad example.
There are other examples of medicines and such produced by people not associated with any university.
That recent one that was a big controversy because the pill was increased 5000% in price, Daraprim, was discovered by private industry, and the guy that did it was successful in keeping the price low for years... until GlaxoSmithKline sold the medicine off.
He was responsible for compressing medicine so it could be sold in tablets.
Universities aren't the only producers of medical innovation, and I doubt a university only research option would have developed all of the technology we have today.
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
shout-out to Franklin
Who also worked in a university, though a different one to Crick and Watson…
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Was the research funded by the earnings from the college or the hospital or charitable donations? Probably a mix of all three.
So, it was a bad example.I don't much care about where the money comes from, my point is that universities are pretty good at spending the money efficiently. Mostly by not giving it to people, but what are you going to do.
@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
There are other examples of medicines and such produced by people not associated with any university.
Jenner and Leuwenhoek, among others.
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@dkf Better living through pedantry indeed.
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Mostly by not giving it to people, but what are you going to do.
They give it to people... just... the Dean, or some other entity, or investors ("contributors"), etc. The profitability of the university is what sustains the research, which is really just there to attract attention. Unless it's fully publicly funded. Then the money eventually funnels around into campaign contributions, and makes the politicians rich. I don't know about being more efficient.... just more efficient at hiding the money.
The real difference is how the result is used. Is it proprietary or not.
Inevitably someone finds a way to proprietize a method of delivery or some other aspect, though.
EDIT: another downvote? I thought that was a pretty balanced post. Would help to know what's being disagreed with. Is it another one that thinks the public sphere can't be corrupt, that all corruption comes from the private industry?
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
out-of-network
Your first problem is that this is even a thing. In Germany, 99% of the doctors (have to) accept patients with public insurance, and they will be happy to accept people with private insurance as well, since private insurance companies always cover at least as much. Insurance companies simply cannot afford not accepting certain doctors or hospitals - only certain types of treatment that are not cost-efficient or nor proven to work well enough - and most doctors cannot afford not accepting all insurance companies.
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
just more efficient at hiding the money.
I don't know that that's the case. Once a year my university gets FOIA'd and publishes the salary of everyone who works for it in the newspaper. All university emails are FOIA-able. (And are, pretty regularly if something goes down or someone thinks it might be juicy)
Laundering money from the government to a candidate is possible through nearly any business. Universities are not the best way of doing it, pretty much because they're a public institution.
You can't FOIA Roche, and they have a huge lobbying arm.
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@asdf said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
out-of-network
Your first problem is that this is even a thing.... Insurance companies simply cannot afford not accepting certain doctors or hospitals - only certain types of treatment that are not cost-efficient or nor proven to work well enough - and most doctors cannot afford not accepting all insurance companies.
Any given insurance company has
entered into price-fixing agreementsnegotiated prices with some doctors, but not all doctors. They want to encourage you to go to the doctorsthey're screwing overthey've negotiated with, rather than the ones they haven't, because theymake moresave you money.
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
"Private insurance companies are evil" -Obama
private insurance companies clapping and nodding in support of ACAOnly because they managed to successfully convince your government to drop the idea of public insurance, which was a part of the original draft. IIRC, mostly the Republican party - but some Democrats as well - strongly opposed the idea of public insurance.
This is not an excuse for the fuckup that the ACA has become, but it was mostly your party who insisted on fucking it up.
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@AyGeePlus said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Laundering money from the government to a candidate is possible through nearly any business. Universities are not the best way of doing it, pretty much because they're a public institution.
I don't think a single researcher has been paid 1.8 million dollars in their career at a university, researching.
I continue to doubt claims of efficiency.
