POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY
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First sitting Repub saying he won't vote for Trump.
Also on Tuesday, Rep. Richard Hanna (R-N.Y.) became the first sitting Republican member of Congress to say publicly that he plans to vote for Clinton for president, declaring in an interview with Syracuse.com that Trump is a “national embarrassment.”
The three-term congressman, who represents a swath of upstate New York near Syracuse but is not running for re-election this year, has bucked his party in the past on issues ranging from gay marriage to climate change. He declared his support for Clinton in an opinion piece published Tuesday on the news website and elaborated in an interview that Trump’s continued feud with the parents of a Muslim American Army captain killed in Iraq were the final straw.
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Begins today? Hardly; the collapse of the Republican party's been going on for about 8 years now! When you take a look at the Republican actions in the last two Presidential elections, the phrase "suicide by cannibalism" comes to mind, and they never seemed to realize that!
Of course, this year the Democrats are going down the same track, with the Hillary camp displaying blatant, open contempt for her constituency, to such a ridiculous degree that I actually think Trump has a strong chance of winning this one. (Not that I want him to, but I don't want her to either, so what I want isn't particularly relevant at this point.) Either way, the next 4 years are gonna suck.
Batten down the hatches, everyone...
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
with the Hillary camp displaying blatant, open contempt for her constituency, to such a ridiculous degree that I actually think Trump has a strong chance of winning this one
I can only pray the repubs cannibalize their candidate faster and harder than the dems cannibalize theirs. And that's pretty damn fucked up.
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I'm amazed you Americans have fallen this far, and you still aren't even contemplating voting for some third option.
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@cartman82 It's a weird sort of prisoner's dilemma: it'd be best if a third party won, but if some people vote 3rd party but not enough other people do, Trump wins, which is worse than Hillary winning.
It'd probably be really cool if a non-Trump conservative won on a third-party ticket: it'd show that everyone rejects Trump, but at the same time, open the door for a more than two-party candidate system, which we desperately need. There's at least two republican and three democrat sub-parties out there that could use a divorce from each other.
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@masonwheeler I believe what he meant was that the final chapter of The Fall of The House of Reagan begins today.
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@Yamikuronue said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@cartman82 It's a weird sort of prisoner's dilemma: it'd be best if a third party won, but if some people vote 3rd party but not enough other people do,
TrumpHillary wins, which is worse thanHillaryTrump winning.FTFY to show the other side's argument as well.
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@Yamikuronue said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Trump wins, which is worse than Hillary winning.
I'm honestly not sure. Just how much can a POTUS screw up compared to how likely his screwups are to ensure a landslide for the other party next election?
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@theBread said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
FTFY to show the other side's argument as well.
Eh. I don't care if you want Ted Cruz for president, but if you want Trump you're a complete moron. The guy has the IQ of a potato.
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@theBread said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
FTFY to show the other side's argument as well.
Except our supporting material is more persuasive than theirs.
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@Maciejasjmj said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Just how much can a POTUS screw up
For one thing, it still looks like the next one's going to nominate at least one SCOTUS justice.
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@Yamikuronue Ted Cruz isn't any better, he's just quieter. Either would be a disaster. Not that that matters now.
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@Yamikuronue Most of candidates acted like they had the IQ of various vegetables(c'mon you could've jumped on the orange bandwagon and said IQ of a carrot or a yam). But listening to the republican primary debates, this sounds like the case for some of the never trump people.
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@cartman82 said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
and you still aren't even contemplating voting for some third option.
Our third parties are full of crazy people.
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@Yamikuronue The worst strategic move the Repubs have made in recent years was taking the Tea Party guys "in-house" instead of saying, "ok, fine, go create your own Party, see if we care."
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@Yamikuronue said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
It's a weird sort of prisoner's dilemma: it'd be best if a third party won, but if some people vote 3rd party but not enough other people do, Trump wins, which is worse than Hillary winning.
That's why I'm voting for Cthulu. Why settle for the lesser evil?
#cthulu2016
I'm not entirely joking.
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@Yamikuronue This is the Republican's opportunity to change their platform though. If enough Republicans vote for a third party candidate instead of Trump, the party will have to change their plank to win back their votes next time around.
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@Yamikuronue said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
It's a weird sort of prisoner's dilemma: it'd be best if a third party won, but if some people vote 3rd party but not enough other people do,
TrumpHillary wins, which is worse thanHillaryTrump winning.Other than that, yeah.
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@boomzilla I stand by my earlier statement.
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@blakeyrat said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
has bucked his party in the past on issues ranging from gay marriage to climate change
So, no surprise.
@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
When you take a look at the Republican actions in the last two Presidential elections, the phrase "suicide by cannibalism" comes to mind, and they never seemed to realize that!
I won't argue on the values that the Republican party has as signs that it's collapsing, because different parties have different views, and that's ok. That doesn't point to collapse.
However, there is a collapse in both parties, because they are saying one thing to their constituents and doing another.
@Yamikuronue said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Trump wins, which is worse than Hillary winning.
sigh
You see, it's funny when people from both parties say the exact same thing. Yet don't realize they are guilty of the same thing. Authoritarianism sucks, because eventually the authority will disagree with you on some trivial social issue and then issue martial law about it. That's how authoritarianism works.
@Fox said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
The Fall of The House of Reagan begins today.
Again, you're mixing up party values with party health. The two aren't related. Hitler's party did just fine until it lost the war by venturing into Russia. Even North Korea's party is doing just fine. The values don't indicate the health. Values shift, they have been shifting for years now, you're not on the cusp of something great, you didn't invent anything new with progressivism. Eventually you'll become the conservatives and the younger progressives will suggest things you don't like.
@theBread said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Most of candidates acted like they had the IQ of various vegetables(c'mon you could've jumped on the orange bandwagon and said IQ of a carrot or a yam). But listening to the republican primary debates, this sounds like the case for some of the never trump people.
The vast majority, and I do mean the vast majority, are voting based on branding alone. You can see countless videos where people are told political platforms with a bait and switch trick, and people fall for it every time.
The latest was
"This is Hillary's tax plan."
"We all like it."
"Hah, it was Trump."
"Ok, so we're voting Trump now."People don't even know what the platforms are, and they're only voting for their candidate because, by the time the news gets to them, Hillary is only a war criminal, and Trump is only a racist. They don't even know how those assertions came about.
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@boomzilla More seriously, are there any third party candidates you honestly want in the White House? There are not. I can guarantee.
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@blakeyrat said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
The worst strategic move the Repubs have made in recent years was taking the Tea Party guys "in-house" instead of saying, "ok, fine, go create your own Party, see if we care."
That never happened. Some Tea Party types won despite the "establishment" trying to kick them out.
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@Captain I had hope that the party's platform was starting to change and was excited to see them no longer cater to the TEA party, but looks like they decided to say "screw it, time to go crazier"
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@Yamikuronue said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@boomzilla I stand by my earlier statement.
Me too!
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The Tea party is crazy in the same manner as the Feminists are crazy and the BLM is a violent terrorist group.
You don't get it do you.
Keep highlighting the extremes and shoving people into far-left/far-right crazy boxes. That's how you start a war...
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@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Again, you're mixing up party values with party health. The two aren't related. Hitler's party did just fine until it lost the war by venturing into Russia. Even North Korea's party is doing just fine. The values don't indicate the health. Values shift, they have been shifting for years now, you're not on the cusp of something great, you didn't invent anything new with progressivism. Eventually you'll become the conservatives and the younger progressives will suggest things you don't like.
Your shoulder aliens are at work again, I see. I wasn't commenting on party values.
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@blakeyrat said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@boomzilla More seriously, are there any third party candidates you honestly want in the White House? There are not. I can guarantee.
No. I guess the Libertarians would be the least worst of them. I think we're going to get Hillary but we'll still have a Republican Congress, so we'll at least still have a divided government and avoid the disaster of 2009-10.
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@theBread That's what's driving the moderate Republicans to the Democrats this time around. If the Republican party wants to survive, they can't cater to the right wing radicals anymore. They will find this out the hard way soon (if they don't know it already).
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@Fox said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Your shoulder aliens are at work again, I see. I wasn't commenting on party values.
@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
However, there is a collapse in both parties, because they are saying one thing to their constituents and doing another.
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@Captain said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
If the Republican party wants to survive, they can't cater to the right wing radicals anymore.
If they had catered to us, we sure as hell would never have gotten Trump. Probably Perry or Walker. Maybe Jindal.
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@xaade You're going to have to explain how those two sentences are related and what you mean by their juxtaposition.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjWe31S_0g
Well, except that no country that is better would let a fuck-up like me stay...
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@Yamikuronue said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
There's at least two republican and three democrat sub-parties out there that could use a divorce from each other.
Republicans:
- Reagan Conservatives (and people who just want small government)
- The Religious Right
- Skinheads/Klansmen/Birthers/took-our-jerbs-ers
Democrats:
- Clinton Democrats (socially liberal, fiscally moderate)
- Socialists who want to follow Sweden/Denmark's example
Which third one am I missing?
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@Fox said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
@xaade You're going to have to explain how those two sentences are related and what you mean by their juxtaposition.
No I don't.
Trump is not related to Reagan.
Bush was doing fine until he went back on the Reagan values. He was never going to win over liberals. So throwing away his constituents was a bad move.
If you can stop thinking from the sidelines and see the whole picture, you'd understand what's going on better, but you're too busy being giddy about the Republicans losing power.
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@masonwheeler said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Begins today? Hardly; the collapse of the Republican party's been going on for about 8 years now!
This. I stopped taking them seriously the minute Sarah Palin was nominated for vice president. Also, they systematically destroyed any chance of consensus in the Congress during the Obama presidencies. It's almost as if they want the democratic system to fail, to fabricate proof for their claims that the government is so inefficient and broken that everything should be handled by private organizations and the market.
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@Groaner said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Which third one am I missing?
People who want to vote Green but don't want to feel like their vote didn't matter. "Save the whales, pot for everyone" types.
Oh, and crazy SJW people.
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@Groaner said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Which third one am I missing?
On the Democrat side there are additionally at least:
- Racial identity politics: especially black, Hispanic
- Unions: which share the Klansmen/took-our-jerbs/skinhead demographic
- Alphabet soup of sexual identities
- Feminists: abortion isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing
Many people (on either side) belong to multiple groups, for sure.
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@boomzilla said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Perry
One word summary of his presidency:
Oops
@boomzilla said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Walker
Ridiculously religious to the point that he actually opposed someone being hired by the government because she was Wiccan.
@boomzilla said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Jindal
Somehow a racist xenophobe despite being a minority from an immigrant family.
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@Groaner said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Skinheads/Klansmen/Birthers/took-our-jerbs-ers
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@asdf said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Also, they systematically destroyed any chance of consensus in the Congress during the Obama presidencies.
What? Who was the One ignoring the other side by saying, "I won."? Holy shit, that's dumb.
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@Fox said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Somehow a racist xenophobe despite being a minority from an immigrant family
If you can't understand that, then maybe you're begging the question.
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@Fox said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
One word summary of
hisevery humanly possible presidency:Oops
FTFY.
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It's more complicated than that.
The "Reagan Conservatives" (i.e., the neocons) did cut taxes, but then increased spending. So the national debt has grown under every Republican president since Reagan, and as a matter of fact has shrunk under every Democratic president*. They don't want "small government". (*Obama is an exception, kind of -- the debt grew for dramatically for a while, but that was to pay for Bush policies)
I'd probably be a neocon if they weren't war-mongers and rent seekers. The bastards.
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@Captain said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Obama is an exception, kind of -- the debt grew for dramatically for a while, but that was to pay for Bush policies
The main reason he's an exception is that he had to get his spending increases in right at the start because the Republican Congress wouldn't go along with his subsequent increases.
@Captain said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
So the national debt has grown under every Republican president since Reagan
And you guys don't believe me when I tell you that the Republican party is too Progressive! Sheesh.
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@Captain said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
If the Republican party wants to survive, they can't cater to the right wing radicals anymore.
I wager that won't happen until they lose Texas. (Which will happen within 8-12 years according to current projections.)
If they survive Trump without serious soul-searching, that is. They could U-turn in time for 2020.
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@ScholRLEA said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
Well, except that no country that is better would let a fuck-up like me stay...
I'd love to be able to claim that Germany is sooo much better, but it's probably not. The reason I prefer to live here is probably that it's the evil I know vs. the evil I don't know that well.
@boomzilla said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
What? Who was the One ignoring the other side by saying, "I won."?
I'm not saying Obama didn't contribute to the problem during his second presidency. But from the distance, it seems like he still tried to find compromises during his first one, and the Republican hardliners did everything in their power to make sure he fails as badly as possible.
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@asdf said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
It's almost as if they want the democratic system to fail, to fabricate proof for their claims that the government is so inefficient and broken that everything should be handled by private organizations and the market.
Come back when you figure out the difference between Republicans and Libertarians.
@xaade said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
If you can't understand that, then maybe you're begging the question.
Maybe it's a corollary of "Only whites can be racist"?
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@Captain said in POLITICS The Collapse of the RNC BEGINS TODAY:
(*Obama is an exception, kind of -- the debt grew for dramatically for a while, but that was to pay for Bush policies)
What Bush policies? War? Education? Amnesty?
Obama benefited from a natural recovery of the economy, and Bush suffered from a combination of Republican and Democrat policies that failed the economy.