How did you start hating opensource?
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@blakeyrat It allows other people to port it to unpopular platforms, or change something they disagree with.
It's very rare to have anti-user features in OSS software, like adware, DRM, artificial limits, etc.
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@otter said in How did you start hating opensource?:
It's very rare to have anti-user features in OSS software, like adware, DRM, artificial limits, etc.
iOS software has all those things, and it's wildly popular.
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@blakeyrat not the easy to port to unpopular platforms thing part, that's kind a block for me using any of it, isn't it? I don't have an iphone
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I started hating open source when I found myself contributing to it and getting my reputation trashed by others around me.
That, and the fact that most OSS devs do a weird hybrid of "it does everything I need therefore go fuck yourself" and "it doesn't do everything everyone might want and so put in ALL the things" of which precisely ALL of it ends up being shite.
I'm no exception, my OSS stuff has a bit of both but I tried not to be a dick about it and I tried to be realistic about what I could develop in the time I had available and not be pressured into the latter case above.
I'm the minority of OSS devs though because I give a shit about things like user experience, but no doubt blargleflargle OSS is evil and I eat babies or something because I couldn't possibly make something OSS and not terrible. I try to do the best I can but I am aware of the limit of my resources.
However there is absolutely no guarantee that closed source is better. The platform I maintain professionally used to be worse than WordPress in many ways. In some ways it still is.
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OSS is also great for old things. Commercial software from the DOS era is all unmaintained, but Doom was released as OSS and was ported almost everywhere.
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@otter While I agree what you is saying is true, the GPL itself was modified by stallman (the creation of GPL v3) because of political reasons.
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@lucas1 The anti-tivoization thing? It's in the same spirit of the GPLv2, GNU things aren't supposed to be used in software the user can't change. Linus disagreed with him and stayed on GPLv2.
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Linus disagreed with him and stayed on GPLv2.
And if he had switched to GPL v3 I doubt many phones, IoT devices would be using Linux now.
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@lucas1 I'm not sure if locking the bootloader is so important for them. There is even a manufacturer that let the boot open.
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@blakeyrat no, but my shell remembers the commands so I don't have to
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@otter Well that is the beauty of capitalism, I suppose manufacturers can offer than as a selling point (HTC for example removed the need to root the device).
But I would imagine there are some industries where a hardware lock down is very important e.g. automotive where the software installation / configuration could have legal and safety implications. For example in the UK if a car has DVD player (that can bee seen by the driver) it must be disabled while the car is being driven. GPL v3 licensed software couldn't be used in these circumstances.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@kt_ said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I know you have dyslexia, but there are people who don't have problems with remembering CLI commands.
Pretty much everybody, for example.
You know what people don't (generally) have trouble remembering? Where they put down their keys. That's because your brain uses this thing called "spatial memory" to keep track of where physical objects are located, and it's really fucking powerful (in the vast majority of people) compared to rote memory.
A good GUI makes use of spatial memory, and that's its superpower.
The level of stupid in you is rather unbelievable...
Your argument is that because a GUI is better in a certain limited scope of jobs, therefore GUI is the ONLY way to go for all software?
Are you tarded or something? I think you're tarded.
That or your computer is a magic box that just poofs things on screen for you... because you're obvsly unaware of the heaps of software critical to your system that have no gui (no matter what OS you're running).
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@lordofduct well, he said
A good GUI makes use of spatial memory, and that's its superpower.
and I agree with that. If we had good GUIs for many of these non-graphical tools, then the interfaces would in fact be good, by definition. But people don't make good programs, and everything is terrible.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@otter said in How did you start hating opensource?:
But having the sources and the freedoms is a good thing.
Because?
It doesn't produce better software. So what good is it?
While I do prefer a lot of proprietary software out there.
And I agree with several arguments about some of the problems with OSS (especially the viral licenses, and the heaps of garbage software).
Open-source is still useful. It allows people to license out software they don't plan on profiting from. It allows me to use code from others without fear of being sued for stealing. Vice versa it allows people to use my code without having to be bothered with e-mails getting approval to use said code.
Now, you may not need this... but your question was:
So what good is it?
That's what good it is.
If you don't shoot guns, and you think guns suck because of crime. If you ask 'what good are guns', and a hunter who lives off the land says, "I hunt with them". It's a valid point. It's not completely useless. May you or may you not like it, want it, or even use it.
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@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@lordofduct well, he said
A good GUI makes use of spatial memory, and that's its superpower.
and I agree with that. If we had good GUIs for many of these non-graphical tools, then the interfaces would in fact be good, by definition. But people don't make good programs, and everything is terrible.
Right now I'm writing a monitoring service that watches orders being placed between our clients and our labs. It ensures that an order placed at the client makes its complete trip all the way to the lab, and that the lab technician actually accessed the electronic order rather than manually put it in whent he requisition shows up in the mail.
This data is stored into a database, and a report is generated that is then emailed to management.
Tell me... what fucking need is there for a god damn GUI in that program?
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@lordofduct Just don't bother mate ... ain't worth it.
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@bb36e Some are, but they usually (I am going to get crucified for this) in web interfaces by the likes of Google.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@otter said in How did you start hating opensource?:
It's very rare to have anti-user features in OSS software, like adware, DRM, artificial limits, etc.
iOS software has all those things, and it's wildly popular.
If by "wildly popular" you mean "hemorrhaging market share ever since Android became mature enough to not thoroughly suck" then yeah...
@lucas1 said in How did you start hating opensource?:
But I would imagine there are some industries where a hardware lock down is very important e.g. automotive where the software installation / configuration could have legal and safety implications. For example in the UK if a car has DVD player (that can bee seen by the driver) it must be disabled while the car is being driven. GPL v3 licensed software couldn't be used in these circumstances.
Why not? It's already illegal under current laws to soup up cars in specific ways that make them dangerous, even though it's physically possible (and not particularly difficult for one skilled in the art) to do so. Why should it be any different for software in the car than for hardware in the car?
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@blakeyrat I like being able to run programs in platforms they were not originally made for. It prevents a whole lot of vendor lock-in issues.
And if the vendor goes bankrupt, you can find someone else to maintain your code. Or you can find someone to make you a customized version if you need it.
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@anonymous234 Are either of those two things worth the years of struggling with shitty unfinished software? I would say no. Also:
@anonymous234 said in How did you start hating opensource?:
And if the vendor goes bankrupt, you can find someone else to maintain your code. Or you can find someone to make you a customized version if you need it.
Have you ever done this? Have you ever heard of anybody ever doing this?
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
it's demonstrably not better at any of the things I value in software.
Your value system is clearly different from that of the thousands of people who do find value in OSS software. That doesn't necessarily mean you're completely wrong, but as you've noticed, you're going to have a hard time convincing people who see value that you don't that they're wrong.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@anonymous234 Are either of those two things worth the years of struggling with shitty unfinished software? I would say no. Also:
@anonymous234 said in How did you start hating opensource?:
And if the vendor goes bankrupt, you can find someone else to maintain your code. Or you can find someone to make you a customized version if you need it.
Have you ever done this? Have you ever heard of anybody ever doing this?
There are a lot of project forks on Github that have become the new "good" versions of codebases. And I have used or created some of them.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@anonymous234 Are either of those two things worth the years of struggling with shitty unfinished software? I would say no. Also:
@anonymous234 said in How did you start hating opensource?:
And if the vendor goes bankrupt, you can find someone else to maintain your code. Or you can find someone to make you a customized version if you need it.
Have you ever done this? Have you ever heard of anybody ever doing this?
Well, first and foremost, most examples would be with some enterprise setting that you would be unaware of. I could tell you of the various companies I've worked at that over the decades of operation had to rewrite systems because 3rd party vendors went out of business, cross their fingers that a new organization would purchase up the IP and continue maintaining it, and have gotten into a practice of using open-source so as to avoid such scenarios, and even had to utilize that fact since going with OSS options.
But would that suffice for you? You probably would have never heard of the company since they're enterprise and serve a small niche in the market that IF you've heard of them... you wouldn't be making this argument.
The consumer facing realm though, it's not as obvious. The consumer facing realm is dominated with proprietary software... because consumers don't want to support their own software. They pay for the luxury of the company who produces their software to support it.
Which is a valid argument for the usefulness of proprietary software! I'm not arguing against it at all (some others may be).
But that doesn't negate what I just said. Just because you're unaware of the usefulness of it... doesn't mean it poofs away from existence.
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@HardwareGeek said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
it's demonstrably not better at any of the things I value in software.
Your value system is clearly different from that of the thousands of people who do find value in OSS software. That doesn't necessarily mean you're completely wrong, but as you've noticed, you're going to have a hard time convincing people who see value that you don't that they're wrong.
This appears to be @blakeyrat 's problem.
He sees no value in something... therefore it has no value.
"I'm not attracted to redheads, therefore redheads are ugly and should never be party to a sexual relation."
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@TimeBandit said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I have free license for the latest Office at work and home, and I still don't use it.
I have the latest Word on up-to-date Win10 Enterprise at work. My job rarely requires using it (and then mostly for viewing documents written by others), but I'd hate to use it for anything serious. One or another of the Office applications crashes at least once a day, on average. I don't even have to be using it; the window can be just sitting there in the background while I'm doing something else, and it will crash.
Filed under: Type^S a^S word^S then^S type^S another^S.^S
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@anonymous234 There are mechanisms for this in proprietary software. I have an Escrow agreement ... expensive yet, but it is guaranteed that they have a working software and documentation.
I think Escrow is far too bloody expensive and it is a bit shit ... wait ... I just got a really decent business idea.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Have you ever done this? Have you ever heard of anybody ever doing this?
yes and yes
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@blakeyrat Why do you think Escrow exists?
Open source is another approach to this. It is important to organisations as I have to do it.
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@pydsigner said in How did you start hating opensource?:
There are a lot of project forks on Github that have become the new "good" versions of codebases. And I have used or created some of them.
AKA "no you have not".
Just say "no" next time and save us both time.
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@lucas1 said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I think Escrow is far too bloody expensive and it is a bit shit
It's probably expensive because companies have a tremendous irrational fear of anyone seeing their source code.
It doesn't matter. All binaries can be decompiled and modified, it just takes more work. The real reason why companies don't do it is because it's illegal.
If the full code to Windows was leaked, what exactly would change? You can already pirate it. Hobbyists would probably have fun making their own customized versions, but as soon as anyone tried to do anything serious with it, the Microsoft lawsuits would bankrupt them in a month.
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@blakeyrat This is all off-topic anyway. Tell us the story of how @blakeyrat got really mad with OSS.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@pydsigner said in How did you start hating opensource?:
There are a lot of project forks on Github that have become the new "good" versions of codebases. And I have used or created some of them.
AKA "no you have not".
Just say "no" next time and save us both time.
I love how you overlook the other people, like myself, who point out we have. And focus in on one person who forked something.
Is this because you know your argument falls apart when you acknowledge those who demonstrated the opposite of what you say?
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@anonymous234 said in How did you start hating opensource?:
It's probably expensive because companies have a tremendous irrational fear of anyone seeing their source code.
It doesn't matter. All binaries can be decompiled and modified, it just takes more work. The real reason why companies don't do it is because it's illegal.WHAT ...
If I am a software supplier and I have a client and they request an escrow agreement and I agree ... I don't see how that is illegal? Assuming this is part of my contact surely this is legal?
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@lucas1 said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Go away I don't care unless I am including it my own software.
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@lucas1 because you can't read. The decompilation/modification part is what he said was illegal.
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@HardwareGeek
I know right.If it is free as in Money and doesn't include any malware, I will use it if it does the job I want. The license to look at the code is 100% irrelevant.
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@Arantor Depending on the escrow agreement.
The ones I have been under require:
- The source code and all assets needed.
- Build instructions (I normally use a script, but I also have a detailed set of instructions in a word (RTF) document, also I make sure I include all third party libs I can legally include).
- Database scripts.
- It must be burn't onto a CD the version of the software the client is using and sent to the escrow agent.
- I have hot fixes and maintenance must be included on CD if they are withing the same period.
TBH that is pretty much fair, I don't see how that is any different than being opensource. Except I get to keep my ownership of the source code (I rarely bother doing this).
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@lordofduct said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Is this because you know your argument falls apart when you acknowledge those who demonstrated the opposite of what you say?
If you don't stop proving him wrong, he will just ignore the thread.
You have been warned.
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@TimeBandit said in How did you start hating opensource?:
If you don't stop proving him wrong, he will just ignore the thread.
You have been warned.
That's a feature, not a bug.
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145 posts later - still waiting for @blakeyrat to answer...
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@kt_ said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Hey, you get it! So why do you keep spouting this bullshit all the time?
I've never argued that open source software is good, you're smoking the good ganja man.
I thought it was you that said it was orthogonal. Or did you?
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@pydsigner said in How did you start hating opensource?:
There are a lot of project forks on Github that have become the new "good" versions of codebases. And I have used or created some of them.
AKA "no you have not".
Just say "no" next time and save us both time.
I'm sorry, I forgot that you go :whargaarbl: any time you see a certain three letters together. Let me phrase it like this: certain popular public code repository services make it very easy to take on the maintenance of a codebase the original developer abandoned, sometimes with the click of a single button. I've seen this more than once and have some fixes stashed for usage in this way. Additionally, I have seen or used more than one Python project where ownership of the PyPI was transferred to the new maintainer for seamless dependency transitions.
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I am going to say that for me that the problem with Open Source is not in itself, but the fucking fan base.
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@masonwheeler said in How did you start hating opensource?:
This is nice. What would be even nicer is if it were discoverable. When I look under context menu->New, there's no hotkey listed for the operation.
True, but it is in the tooltip for the Ribbon button (main or pinned):
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@Tsaukpaetra said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I love the backwards world we live in where apparently people are concerned about what happens if you don't pay for something.
The issue is more likely that they don't want there not to be a formal license. After all what happens if you use software, and suddenly the owner adds a license that you can't comply with? Remember how Unisys or whoever spent years ignoring their own patents on GIFs and then began threatening people? Nobody wants to take the chance of having that happen to them.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
If you're going to be a dick and name-drop, at least name-drop someone actually famous.
Janet Fielding once hit me in the head with a rolled-up Star Trek poster. I'm pretty sure she didn't realize it was a Star Trek poster.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I don't know what the fuck [QEMU] is.
It emulates Q from Star Trek TNG. That is to say, it's like the old Eliza program, but snarkier.
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@FrostCat I once saw Richard Pryor when I was a kid before a Seahawks game in the King Dome, but and he was a total dick and didn't want to talk to anybody in our group at all.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
he was a total dick and didn't want to talk to anybody
Are you claiming he was open-source, and that's why he was a total dick?