Why is polygamy illegal?
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@Polygeekery said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
I am no friend to religion. I am what most would consider a "militant atheist". I hate all religions equally. They are all shit. But this seems like a set of laws that were enacted with 100% the intentions of discriminating against Mormons (and, I consulted our resident Mormon to make sure he was OK with this thread before I posted it, and he is free to chime in).
I am not cool with laws that their only purpose is to discriminate against one religion. If they want to repeal the BS law that grants churches an exemption from most forms of taxation, I am all for it. Equal application of the law. But the banning of polygamy (and especially the prohibition of "cohabitation" in Utah) seems like a set of laws that were explicitly passed in order to discriminate against Mormons, and I cannot see any other reason.
Actually, that's exactly the reason. The US never had any laws against it until some people wanted to make trouble for Mormons, and it was a pretty simple means of discrimination because the Mormons were the only noteworthy group in the US that was practicing it.
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@LB_ said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Unless the law was created recently, I don't think it was meant to discriminate against anyone in particular. I assume it is just a holdover from the prominent religion(s) that existed at the time.
I think there is no good answer to your question of why - perhaps ask a religious text?
The two most prominent US federal laws were the Edmunds Anti-Polygamy Act of 1882 and the Edmunds–Tucker Act of 1887. As far as I can tell, the wording of the Edmunds Act did not specifically target the LDS (Mormon) Church, but the Edmunds-Tucker Act did. The Edmunds-Tucker Act specifically disincorporated the LDS Church and the associated Perpetual Emigration Fund, required an anti-polygamy oath for voters and potential jurors, made civil marriage licenses required (yes, you can thank anti-Mormon prejudices for that), removed the spousal privilege1 for polygamists, and more.
I think that the general hostility toward Mormons in the 1800s, combined with the actual text of these laws pretty much answers the question of "why".
@Polygeekery said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Yeah, but those laws were enacted at a time when Mormonism was being shunned. It seems as though an extremely reasonable case could be made that those laws are discriminatory and were intended to be so.
So why is it still illegal? We have moved on from those days.
I suspect that it's partly because it's easier to ignore the laws than to remove them. Plus, if you're going after someone, it's easier if there are more crimes for you to potentially prosecute them for. Take Al Capone and tax evasion, for example.
As another example of something that was on the books much longer than it should have been: in 1838, Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs issued an extermination order to drive the Mormons out of Missouri (executive order 44). This was a much worse issue than the anti-polygamy laws, but it wasn't rescinded until 1978. There is no legal pressure to revoke the anti-polygamy laws, so why would the government bother to do anything other than just not enforce them?
@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
I can't speak for the law.
In my personal life, I've found myself involved a few polyamorous relationships (both directly and indirectly), and I can speak from experience that that shit is a house of cards. It's probably possible to pull off without jealousy becoming a major factor, but I haven't seen it work that way in practice.
I have no good reasons why it should be illegal, but it doesn't seem like a great idea. It seems to work better in theory than in practice, in my opinion.
I can understand that, and I don't think it would work for me either. A lot of people misunderstand how it was handled in the LDS church when it was a practice. A few points to consider:
- No more than 5% of the church members ever participated in polygamy at any given time.
- Polygamy was never something that an individual asked to be a part of. It was something that the church leadership asked you to do, and that was handled very carefully.
- Only those who were already married before were ever asked to participate in polygamy.
- A man's wife would be asked if she would allow her husband to take on another wife before the husband was ever consulted. If she said no, then the husband would never know that the issue came up unless his wife mentioned it. If the wife was willing, then the man would generally be asked to court a specific woman instead of trying to find his own wife. Generally, this woman would already know that she was being asked to be part of a polygamist family.
- #2 would be repeated for each additional wife, with acceptance for a new wife being sought from each current wife.
- Polygamist families did not live under just one roof. In fact, there was typically a separate home for each wife and her children. However, the homes of a polygamist family were typically close together and the "sister-wives", as they called each other, would help each other out as much as they could.
- Polygamy was done for a specific purpose, which is part of why we aren't too worried now about not practicing it. That purpose is described pretty well in The Book of Mormon. In Jacob chapter 5, Jacob was calling repentance to a group of people who have taken to having mistresses and concubines, saying basically "If polygamy was good enough for David and Solomon, then it's good enough for us." Jacob tells them to cut it out because they have not been commanded to participate in polygamy, and then he says in Jacob 5:30: "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." In other words, the Lord commands polygamy when he wants his followers to grow quickly in number, but at other times he commands that his followers should have just one spouse.
@cheong said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
And also, when female got pregnant, they usually prefer not to have sex.
Not in my experience.
1 Spousal privilege is the legal right to not have your spouse testify against you in court. Basically, under the Edmunds-Tucker Act, if you are being tried for polygamy your spouses are required to testify against you.
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I very much doubt polygamy laws were introduced to discriminate against mormonism, given that polygamy was illegal before mormonism existed.
Yeah, it's a daft law, though.
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@boomzilla said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
I think there's also some factor of cultural evolution. I think polygamy probably has some destabilizing effects at that level. Wealthy and powerful men start taking more women out of the market, leaving many young men without marriage prospects. Unattached and uncivilized young men are bad.
Add that to the difficulties already mentioned at the micro level, and I think you have a recipe for monogamous institutions developing and becoming traditions and such a deep part of the culture that eventually you get laws, possibly due to contact with non-monogamous cultures.
Like many here, my libertarian mind finds it difficult to justify making laws about it but I am no less convinced that polygamy is worse than monogamy as a cultural institution.
This. Which is why I knew I would disagree with @Polygeekery .
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/04/one-man-many-wives-big-problems/304829/
Also child brides.
I've watched Sister Wives with some fascination.
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@HardwareGeek That is what happened with my husband and his first wife.
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@tufty said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
very much doubt polygamy laws were introduced to discriminate against mormonism, given that polygamy was illegal before mormonism existed.
Not in the US. See also this post. If you have counter evidence, cite it.
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Also since I consider fathering and mothering equally important, the kids get more mothering than fathering and that likely has a similar effect on society as single motherhood.
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@abarker said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
A lot of people misunderstand how it was handled in the LDS church when it was a practice.
Huh, TIL. Never heard any of what you mentioned in that section before. Frankly, the rules there seem--if polygyny is desirable--to be a smart way of going about it, in particular, getting the wive(s) OK(s) first.
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@abarker said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Not in my experience.
Hah. Not only that, but the sex drive thing isn't true. Many cultures do attempt to convince women they shouldn't like sex, but that doesn't make it so.
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@FrostCat said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@abarker said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Not in my experience.
Hah. Not only that, but the sex drive thing isn't true. Many cultures do attempt to convince women they shouldn't like sex, but that doesn't make it so.
On average women's sex drive is lower.
I'm pretty sure we just don't think about it as much.
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Did not read thread. But outlawing polygamy is just socialism. If we let the capitalist pigdogs marry all the women, there would be none left for the common man!
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@fbmac said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
laws should have an expiration date, force congressman to vote again if they want to keep them
This is what I said in my thread!!!!
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@abarker Ah, hairy muff. I kinda assumed the US had inherited the "way way back" stuff from the UK - pre-1776, bigamy was certainly illegal in America (well, the English-run bits of it, at least).
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@FrostCat said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Huh, TIL. Never heard any of what you mentioned in that section before. Frankly, the rules there seem--if polygyny is desirable--to be a smart way of going about it, in particular, getting the wive(s) OK(s) first.
Yeah, it was a very different system than polygamy as practiced by Muslims, or for that matter by modern-day "Mormon fundamentalist" polygamy cults.
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@tufty said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@abarker Ah, hairy muff.
You should shave that thing.
Filed under: At least give it a trim every now and then., Hair in mouth is not fun., Is... Is that why they call you tufty?
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@masonwheeler said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
modern-day "Mormon fundamentalist" polygamy cults.
I briefly considered starting an anti-religion thread, but wasn't sure I could handle the .
Filed under: I was torn between calling it Your Religion Sucks or Atheism Discussion (Please Be Respectful)
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@Polygeekery IMO atheism is a religion, and has all the marks of one. (not agnosticism, atheism)
But anyway.
I'd advocate for removing government regulation of marriage completely. If the government weren't involved in marriage, we could have avoided the last decade drawn out political bullshit that distracted everyone from how bastard both parties of our government are.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
I'd advocate for removing government regulation of marriage completely. If the government weren't involved in marriage, we could have avoided the last decade drawn out political bullshit that distracted everyone from how bastard both parties of our government are.
I could get behind that, with the possible exception of the messiness that can be divorce. That is the only part of marriage where I can't see the government being completely removed from the process, because plenty of people are assholes when it comes to divorce, my father included.
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@abarker The government would still be involved, it's just that marriage would not be defined in our laws.
Everything would be accomplished by private contract that would be customized to the individuals.People who choose not to get a contract, would not need to go through divorce.
Contracts would not need to be customized, and generic ones could be obtained as easily as a will. Templates and all that would inevitably be public, and churches would draft their own that fit the beliefs of the church.
So, the government would still get involved in the lawsuits and such that would occur due to breaches of contract.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
People who choose not to get a contract, would not need to go through divorce.
Then how do you decide who gets what when they split up and can't agree on equitable distribution of property? (Or child custody and visitation rights, etc.) I believe that's the point @abarker was making: you need to have the government involved as an (ostensibly) neutral 3rd party arbiter.
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Wasn't there a movie like that.
Where the government was ACTUALLY RIGHT.
But at the end, everyone was hurrah! because the feels.
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If you choose to not get a contract, that is equivalent to today's choosing not to get married.
Otherwise known as shooting yourself in the foot.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
If you choose to not get a contract, that is equivalent to today's choosing not to get married.
Otherwise known as shooting yourself in the foot.
But guns!!!!!!1111
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@fbmac said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
religion flame-wars don't last here as long as the other ones, go figure
Well, obviously not. After all, everyone already knows vim is the one true editor.
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@Karla said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
But guns!!!!!!1111
Like they shoot poop or something?
Oooohhh....sorry, read that with an extra
t
. Nevermind.
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@fbmac Try using words then, instead of just a dot.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
IMO atheism is a religion, and has all the marks of one. (
Your opinion is demonstrably wrong. You have a right to be wrong. No worries.
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@abarker said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
I could get behind that, with the possible exception of the messiness that can be divorce. That is the only part of marriage where I can't see the government being completely removed from the process, because plenty of people are assholes when it comes to divorce, my father included.
Treat it like any other contract: the government only gets involved if things get messy.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
the last decade drawn out political bullshit that distracted everyone from how bastard both parties of our government are.
ASDESIGNED_WONTFIX
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@Polygeekery said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Your opinion is demonstrably wrong. You have a right to be wrong. No worries.
That depends. There is atheism, and there is Atheism. The kind that includes reductive materialism is every bit a belief system. Sure there's no deity, but then Buddhism and Scientology don't require one either and we have no problem calling those religions.
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Science involves observation, experimentation, etc.
You make a law or theory, etc.That bit is not FACT, it is the most accurate approximation or explanation that could possibly be immediately invalidated by an even more accurate law/theory/etc.
At no point do you consider the information to be a belief.
However, being confident there is no God... is a belief.
You can say, scientifically that there is no observation that confirms the existence of a god, or that our most accurate knowledge to date does not support a god.
However, you can't say a god doesn't exist.
In order to do so, such a statement becomes a belief, and is no longer scientific.
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@antiquarian said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@Polygeekery said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Your opinion is demonstrably wrong. You have a right to be wrong. No worries.
That depends. There is atheism, and there is Atheism. The kind that includes reductive materialism is every bit a belief system. Sure there's no deity, but then Buddhism and Scientology don't require one either and we have no problem calling those religions.
I once got into an argument with a couple (A/a)theists when I asked, "But doesn't the belief that there is no God also require faith?" While one scoffed and insisted that I was full of shit, the other one said, "I do not believe in a God because I have not seen any compelling evidence for the existence of one." Were I on top of my game at that moment, I would have then said one of the following:
- "So what would you consider 'compelling evidence?'"
- "Ah, so you have faith in burden of proof!"
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@Groaner said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
"Ah, so you have faith in burden of proof!"
Actually, you could say,
"But not believing in a God, and believing there is no God, is two different things. By your own standard and admission, to believe there is no God requires compelling evidence that a God does not exist."
And since no such compelling evidence exists that demonstrates that God doesn't exist, your belief is one of faith, no different than people who believe in God.
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@antiquarian said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@Polygeekery said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Your opinion is demonstrably wrong. You have a right to be wrong. No worries.
That depends. There is atheism, and there is Atheism. The kind that includes reductive materialism is every bit a belief system. Sure there's no deity, but then Buddhism and Scientology don't require one either and we have no problem calling those religions.
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@ben_lubar Is that more Undertale shit? Goddamned Ben L, you're going to be one of those people aren't you.
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@blakeyrat said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Ben L, you're going to be one of those people aren't you.
YMBNH
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@error Well he's already one of those people about Dwarf Fortress and lojban and such, but this is yet another thing to be those people about.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
However, you can't say a god doesn't exist.
My philosophy textbook could be summarized as this:
Chapter 1: Why god is bullshit.
Chapter 2: Why the soul is bullshit.
Chapter 3: Why free will is mostly bullshit.
Chapter 4: Why we don't need religion to have morals.
Chapter 5: Why we don't need a god for life to have meaning.
etc etcI loved that class.
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ry aside, the non-existence of god is not something I took on faith. It was only after long and careful consideration and research I made the decision to abandon my faith.
It's also completely false to say that there is no evidence one way or the other. If you think so please read this essay:
It's a fascinating read. I first read it before I became an atheist, and it was instrumental in persuading me.
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@error Whoever wrote that article needs to take some Comparative Religion classes. Dualism and reductive materialism are not the only two alternatives.
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@antiquarian said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@error Whoever wrote that article needs to take some Comparative Religion classes. Dualism and reductive materialism are not the only two alternatives.
OK. I'm an open-minded individual. Present me with other alternatives.
Not in a pretending-to-listen-until-I-can-point-out-a-flaw way. I will sincerely consider your viewpoint.
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@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
OK. I'm an open-minded individual. Present me with other alternatives.
Animism, pantheism, and idealism. There may be others.
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@ben_lubar said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
spiked collar
Is that...thing... eviscerating itself?
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Isn't it also called "Mormon Hold-'em"?
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@Polygeekery said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Is that...thing... eviscerating itself?
It's hiding that sword behind it's back. At least it thinks it's doing it, dumb animal.