More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense
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@BaconBits said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Only allow forced reboots when the screensaver has been active for 5 minutes.
Except that never happens ever, because who uses a screensaver in 2016?
@BaconBits said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Or only allow automatic reboots when there has been no input from the user for 30 minutes.
So it reboots in the middle of Iron Man 2 instead of a video game.
@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
...as long as nothing in libpng includes a breaking API change...or a behavior change, which is exactly why Microsoft doesn't even try.
Nor should they, because if the breaking API change leads to a segfault it itself could be the next security vulnerability. (Which would be kind of awesome, honestly. But still, the goal is to keep the computer secure.)
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@loopback0 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
That said, it popped up above everything else.
One mine, it tried to pop up above everything else, but since I was in a full-screen game (Ark, I believe), I had to sit there wondering like a nube why all the sudden the only thing I could do was look around (mouse movement is apparently still captured or something), but wasd or anything else wasn't working.
Of course, as soon as I pressed enter to see if maybe it was confused and was thinking I was typing a chat message, it opened the Metro Settings app and started downloading updates....Mind you this was entirely when I couldn't see the dialog box that was supposed to be on top of everything.
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@Tsaukpaetra Oh hey! It popped up again! Except there were no options, it had a "Get updates" button and you literally can't click anything else. Alt+F4 did nothing, CTRL+Alt+Del brought up Windows Security (which is useless in this case), Ctrl+Shift+Esc brought up Task Manage UNDERNEATH the window.
Wow.
Hitting Escape apparently clicked the button, and I'm assuming Space or Enter would have done the same.
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For people who think any kind of forced reboot is fine, even with postpone option and idle detection: I get it. You like to turn off your computer when you're done for the day. Frequents reboots fit with your style of work. That's great! I'm glad you and MS can cuddle together and masturbate each other to sleep.
But there are people who have different work styles. Where restart is a big inconvenience, that needs to fit in with the person's schedule, instead of the other way around.
For example, this is how I do my work on linux. Since I am always working on 3-4 projects at a time, each one gets its own virtual desktop. Each virtual desktop has a few browser windows, opened to specific pages. It has a file manager opened to folders I'm working in. It has an IDE or two, with all the project metadata parsed and stored in memory. It has some kind of database IDE, with live connections to remote and local database servers. It has other assorted files and editors open and ready to be brought up. It has several terminal windows. Each terminal is
cd
-d into appropriate directory. Each one has a custom position and background color, so I can visually parse which one is doing what without reading the output. Some of them have fiddly env variables or screens set up. Others have live SSH sessions to remote servers.Every time I have to restart linux, ALL of this state gets lost. I have to spend 10+ minutes manually setting everything back to the way I like it. it's a HUGE pain in the ass. Luckily, on Linux, I can go months between updates or other issues that would require me to reboot the system.
Even more important, I can do it ON MY OWN SCHEDULE. This means, once I'm done with a project, or am going on an extended weekend, or just want to wipe the slate clean... well, isn't that the perfect opportunity to do system maintenance, including whatever restarts are required?
It's not about bragging about uptime. That's stupid. It's about me having lots of shit to get done, and needing my OS to help me do it, instead of fighting me at every step.
Which is where we circle back to Windows. Microsoft has finally realized professionals and power users are running away from their OS in droves. They are desperately trying to stem the flow with features like virtual desktops (a huge failure) and bash subsystem (to be seen, probably crap).
Well guess what, Microsoft. On Mac, I can restart the system, and have everything brought back up the way it was before. Where's that feature on Windows? Because the way you do updates now, you are forcing people to lose their entire working environment at random intervals that are largely out of their control.
Even worse is the lack of respect towards the user. I get it, both the user and the OS have things they want done. However, OS should NEVER put its own agenda ahead of the user's.
MY things should come first. Deciding to restart the system and bring everything back up on my own schedule is a pain in the ass, but whatever, that's the price of doing business. Having some fucking piece of software dictate its own tempo to me is INFURIATING.
No Windows, I don't want to fucking schedule your fucking update, you piece of garbage. I'm not here to serve your update needs. You are here to serve MY NEEDS. And if my needs are to keep working right now, THEN I FUCKING KEEP WORKING, AND YOU CAN FUCKING GO AWAY WITH YOUR CRAP, YOU PIECE OF SHIT.
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@cartman82 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Every time I have to restart linux, ALL of this state gets lost.
Well, you can have parts of it stay saved, I don't remember when I last saw a DE without "save current session on logout" feature. Granted, that won't help with your terminals being
cd
d into proper directories, but it's something.
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@Onyx said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Well, you can have parts of it stay saved, I don't remember when I last saw a DE without "save current session on logout" feature. Granted, that won't help with your terminals being cdd into proper directories, but it's something.
There's a way to save session on linux, but it's broken beyond belief. Apparently app needs to register itself with whatever session manager is active. But almost no app does that anymore.
I recently switched back to gnome terminal, and was once again disappointed by the lack of this feature. Apparently, it did register itself at one point in the past, then someone removed it and that's it. WONTFIX with "who needs that feature anyway?"
So dissapointing when you see things regress from where they need to be.
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@cartman82 Fair 'nuff. I never actually use the stuff, I prefer my sessions to start "clean" since I don't reboot often either so I can't say I tested it that much.
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@cartman82 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I recently switched back to gnome terminal, and was once again disappointed by the lack of this feature. Apparently, it did register itself at one point in the past, then someone removed it and that's it. WONTFIX with "who needs that feature anyway?"
Konsole definitely remembers under KDE. Of course, it can't help you with stuff like ssh sessions. Then there's all the stuff that relies on having the vpn up, so there's a hard limit to what DE level session management can do.
But applications that can save session state are nice, too. I probably have 7 or 8 different saved sessions in kate depending on what I'm doing.
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@cartman82 And then we contrast your special snowflake case with the millions of clueless users who wouldn't update their PCs if someone didn't force them to.
I had way too many support talks over "I cannot access the internet and this page on my browser says I'm locked out due to something called a ZEUS exploit kit?" for your attitude to hold much water with me.
Sorry, dude, don't really care.
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@Rhywden said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
And then we contrast your special snowflake case with the millions of clueless users who wouldn't update their PCs if someone didn't force them to.
Just admit that you've accepted the awfulness for the better good. It's a necessary sacrifice, not a friendly design.
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@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@Rhywden said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
And then we contrast your special snowflake case with the millions of clueless users who wouldn't update their PCs if someone didn't force them to.
Just admit that you've accepted the awfulness for the better good. It's a necessary sacrifice, not a friendly design.
I've never stated anything to the contrary, so I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to score here.
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@Rhywden Considering Apple manages to keep things updated without pissing people off, you're full of shit, as usual. Attitudes like yours is why Windows will end up only with people who are forced to use it or are too old to change.
(or don't know anything better)
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@cartman82 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Apple manages to keep things updated without pissing people off
Do they? Or are they still a small enough attack vector that zero-day exploits aren't jumped on immediately, meaning they can afford to be more lax on update policies?
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@cartman82 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
No Windows, I don't want to fucking schedule your fucking update, you piece of garbage. I'm not here to serve your update needs.
QFT. (Also QFT for the stuff about popup dialogs that you accidentally type away.)
I'm currently stuck on a Surface (due to relocating), and while the virtual desktop stuff is nice and allows for me to work more or less as I would do normally, it's painful how often I lose that state due to a random reboot. Granted, some of that is related to what seems to be a bug with hibernation failing (because apparently power management is hard).
Anyway. My typical setup is like @cartman82's. And yes,
No Windows, I don't want to fucking schedule your fucking update, you piece of garbage. I'm not here to serve your update needs.
because that deserves to be said again.
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@Rhywden said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I've never stated anything to the contrary, so I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to score here.
Well done. Hopefully the rest of the beaten down Windows using masses here will take note.
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@cartman82 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@Rhywden Considering Apple manages to keep things updated without pissing people off, you're full of shit, as usual. Attitudes like yours is why Windows will end up only with people who are forced to use it or are too old to change.
(or don't know anything better)
I take it you haven't looked at the recent Apple Music update? Or the multitude of other updates where they pissed off one user group or the other?
Maybe it's not me who's full of manure...
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@Rhywden I'll take a forced reboot over forcing U2 onto my hard drive
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@Jaloopa said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I'll take a forced reboot over forcing U2 onto my hard drive
is it still the case that it's literally impossible to remove that album from your itunes library? i'm pretty sure it was when apple pulled that asinine maneuver.
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@accalia ISTR them releasing a removal tool and hiding it somewhere on the website
Fake edit:
I was right
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201396
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@accalia said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
is it still the case that it's literally impossible to remove that album from your itunes library?
No.
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@Jaloopa You can do it in iTunes too.
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@Jaloopa said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
ISTR them releasing a removal tool
ah. good! that's not as good as having the user accept the gift before they just shoved it into their music library but it's a start.
@Jaloopa said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
and hiding it somewhere on the website
ADGI
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@loopback0 Does that delete it from your online account as well, or just the downloaded copy?
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@Jaloopa said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Does that delete it from your online account as well
That's the Store "My Music" list rather than the local "My Music" list, so it seems to.
@Jaloopa said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
the downloaded copy?
It isn't downloaded - that's why the "Make Available Offline" option is still there in the menu.
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@blakeyrat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@BaconBits said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Only allow forced reboots when the screensaver has been active for 5 minutes.
Except that never happens ever, because who uses a screensaver in 2016?
You know as well as I that's a semantic argument. The default power profile for every installation of Windows will turn off the monitor after X minutes of inactivity. That's "not a screensaver" in the sense that there's no pretty pattern or .scr being executed, but it's the exact same code doing the exact same thing except it calls a power management function instead.
@BaconBits said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Or only allow automatic reboots when there has been no input from the user for 30 minutes.
So it reboots in the middle of Iron Man 2 instead of a video game.
So, make it configurable up to 4 hours? Allow media players to prevent inactivity -- you know, like they already do? You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The idea -- that the computer should never auto reboot when it knows it's in active use -- is still a good idea.
The point is that both options for rebooting when the system is known-idle offer an improvement to the current behavior of IDGAF rebooting because, in spite of MS's obvious opinion otherwise, this isn't sane behavior.
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@loopback0 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@FrostCat I found a post of mine here which included the <10 minutes until reboot message...
I have never seen that before.
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@sloosecannon said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@BaconBits said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I don't necessarily mind forced reboots. I've done patch management. What I mind is forced reboots when the user is active.
It's not like the system can't tell you're using it. You know what would be really simple? Only allow forced reboots when the screensaver has been active for 5 minutes. Or only allow automatic reboots when there has been no input from the user for 30 minutes.
Also, I don't know what version of Windows 10 y'all got. I've had it installed for a year and I've never seen a 4 hour reboot warning. Hell, I've never seen a 15 minute reboot warning. The only notification I've seen is a little window that says, "Windows is installing updates...". I used to get 4 hour warnings all the time before my upgrade, but as far as I can tell those went extinct after Windows 7 or 8. Now it schedules it and just does it and fuck you if it interferes.
Or like I suggested above, use the already a built-in "am I idle" functionality ;)
You're going to have to explain that a bit better.
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@BaconBits said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
So, make it configurable up to 4 hours?
People in this forum don't bother looking at the configuration options, you think Ma and Pa Kettle will?
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@cartman82 I reboot all the time and I still get hit by auto-reboots.
(I shut my PC down when I don't need it because it's highly-overclocked and will overheat my 600-square-foot apartment if I leave it running all the time. Saves power, both PC and A/C, if I turn it off when I'm done.)
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@mott555 How are you shutting it down? I find if you just hit the power button to trigger shutdown, it doesn't install updates, but if you shut down through the Start Menu, it does.
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@RaceProUK i shutdown via
D ALTF4 RETURN
installs updates if it needs to and works on all versions of windows since 95 (you may need to fiddle with the dropbox that shows up after the ALTF4 as "Install Updates and Shutdown" hasn't always been the default, it should remember your selection after the first time.)
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@cartman82 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Every time I have to restart linux, ALL of this state gets lost.
Well, clearly using Windows is a hindrance to your workflow. In this case you might be better off not using it for work.
I'm not even trying to snark here.
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@RaceProUK said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@mott555 How are you shutting it down? I find if you just hit the power button to trigger shutdown, it doesn't install updates, but if you shut down through the Start Menu, it does.
I use the Start Menu.
(Ugh had to CTRL-F5 again to be able to post...)
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@cartman82 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
On Mac, I can restart the system, and have everything brought back up the way it was before.
People keep saying this. Is it smart enough to bring back a telnet session where you had a command half-typed?
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@Rhywden said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
So, spare us.
oh yeah, linux is fucked up in its own way (i.e. programs running older versions of libraries after an update). everything needs improvement, i'm just saying it's surprising how long computers have been around and no one's figured this shit out.
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@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Well done. Hopefully the rest of the beaten down Windows using masses here will take note.
Meh. I mean, what do you want? I learned to modify my workflow years ago so that I don't (for example) leave stuff running overnight that might be gone in the morning. It's also cheap insurance since no place I've ever worked has been willing to spend the money on a UPS, so if the building loses power, it's going to happen anyway.
@cartman82 do you have a UPS capable of running overnight if you lose power?
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@mott555 In that case, if there's pending updates, there should be an option like 'Install updates and shut down'
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@mott555 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
highly-overclocked
Ah. Well, then, you're already a special snowflake. Raymond Chen's talked about OC causing all sorts of weird problems over the years.
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@blakeyrat yeah i know. i didn't say anything about linux. it would be nice though. imagine how many flamewars wouldn't have erupted if both OSes did it the right way.
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@RaceProUK That's usually the only shutdown option in the menu.
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@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@mott555 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
highly-overclocked
Ah. Well, then, you're already a special snowflake. Raymond Chen's talked about OC causing all sorts of weird problems over the years.
I've had this same PC since the early Win7 days and have had every version of Windows since. Never had trouble until Win10. I blame Win10, not my OC. Besides, it's a 2500k. A 1 GHz OC is nothing for them.
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@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I mean, what do you want?
Honestly, I want more paranoid stuff from @RaceProUK about how you shouldn't finish typing up an email if you have a security update pending.
I tend to do updates at the beginning or the end of the day if they're something that's going to require a reboot. It's just amazing at how much disruption Microsoft has caused and that they've managed to convince so many people that it's a good thing. Not a necessary evil, but a Good Thing.
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@mott555 is your hard drive on the way out?
I had the situation in Windows 7 for quite a while where updates would download and be ready to install, shutting down would go through the install process, and they'd still be in the list when I checked for updates again. I never did determine whether it was down to my dodgy hard drive or some error with WU, but it went away when I updated to 10 on a new SSD
EDIT:
@mott555 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I've had this same PC since the early Win7 days and have had every version of Windows since
So you've installed Windows at least 3-4 times on a hard drive that's several years old? Could well be the hardware on the way out
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@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Honestly, I want more paranoid stuff from @RaceProUK about how you shouldn't finish typing up an email if you have a security update pending.
Fuck off. I never claimed anything of the sort, and you know it.
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@Jaloopa Not that I'm aware of. I have a RAID-5 array and I assume it would tell me if something was on the way out.
I'm still waiting for 1 - 2 TB SSDs to come down a bit more in price, then I'll finally move off old-school HDDs.
So you've installed Windows at least 3-4 times on a hard drive that's several years old? Could well be the hardware on the way out
My hard drives are less than a year old. I had a disk failure last year and had to replace/upgrade them (which is why I now have RAID-5).
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@mott555 Fair enough. I realise I'm getting close to Blakey levels of "it's not a bug in Windows, must be hardware", so I'll leave it there
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@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Honestly, I want more paranoid stuff from @RaceProUK about how you shouldn't finish typing up an email if you have a security update pending.
Troll.
All I can say is at work I leave my machine on at the end of the day, but I don't leave anything running unsaved. The machine never, ever, asks to reboot during the day[1]. Sometimes I come in in the morning and oh noes, I lost my browser. In this case, I don't care because modern ones will remember what I was doing.
I appreciate the "I don't want updates happening on me" POV. I'd just rather be proactive and not leave my comp in a place where it can cause me problems than get bit by it all the time. It leaves me free to bitch about more interesting stuff.
[1] exception: I manually run updates. That's on me, though.
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@RaceProUK said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Honestly, I want more paranoid stuff from @RaceProUK about how you shouldn't finish typing up an email if you have a security update pending.
Fuck off. I never claimed anything of the sort, and you know it.
Bullshit, you say all sorts of ridiculous things in name of safety.
@RaceProUK said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@TimeBandit I'm not taking security advice from someone who puts shooting aliens above closing a privilege escalation loophole
@RaceProUK said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
So fun is more important than security to you?
@RaceProUK said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
It waited ten minutes for you to stop being a total spanner and actually pay attention for once. Except you'd decided that it was more important to play a game instead of making sure your machine was properly updated.
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@Jaloopa said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@mott555 Fair enough. I realise I'm getting close to Blakey levels of "it's not a bug in Windows, must be hardware", so I'll leave it there
I see this exact same Win10 argument on tech forums. It almost has to be a Windows bug that doesn't affect everyone. 10 - 20% of users have broken Windows Updates that auto-reboots without warning, and everyone else actually gets warnings and notifications and the option to reschedule.
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@mott555 said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
RAID-5
I know it's just because of my line of work, but I hate RAID 5.