Angular 2 first impression
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@lucas1 said in Angular 2 first impression:
There are now plenty of robust methods to detect various features.
Sure. But, whatever you write today won't have the detection feature in it for future browsers. You can partially address the problem by using a version independent CDN url. However, it won't be long before the framework moves on to another major version and stops maintaining the code that your version independent url points to because they will call it a "legacy version" even though it was brand new 18 months ago.
This happens to desktop apps too, but desktop features are retired on a schedule that's more on the order of tens of years, not months.
So, the point still stands - web apps were introduced with a promise to "write once, run anywhere", yet they have failed miserably at this goal. Any reasonably sophisticated web app will cease to work properly for many of your users within a short number of years if not maintained.
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@blakeyrat said in Angular 2 first impression:
Despite being a bloated mess, Community Server was way faster than Discourse ever was, and it's on-par with NodeBB.
Not even close to typical NodeBB performance. Maybe you forgot about how it would often take several minutes for a new post to show up? Or how slow stuff got with loading and reloading the tags?
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@boomzilla said in Angular 2 first impression:
Maybe you forgot about how it would often take several minutes for a new post to show up? Or how slow stuff got with loading and reloading the tags?
it's amazing what a little time can do to one's recollections of nostalgic events.
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@boomzilla said in Angular 2 first impression:
Maybe you forgot about how it would often take several minutes for a new post to show up?
So? For a forum I don't see that that matters.
@boomzilla said in Angular 2 first impression:
Or how slow stuff got with loading and reloading the tags?
It was still faster DESPITE that bug.
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Also it didn't work at all in Chrome.
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@blakeyrat said in Angular 2 first impression:
So? For a forum I don't see that that matters.
So you're somehow cool with it not being good at its primary function of accepting and displaying posts? In a discussion of performance? Huh. I would not have predicted that.
@blakeyrat said in Angular 2 first impression:
It was still faster DESPITE that bug.
In pretty much no way whatsoever was CS more performant. I couldn't even see a preview without switching a tab.
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@Jaime said in Angular 2 first impression:
But, whatever you write today won't have the detection feature in it for future browsers
I don't understand what you mean e.g. ignoring modernizr or other similar libraries, if I wanted to detect geolocation I would write something like this:
if(navigator.geolocation) { / * Some code */ }
I can check for property and handle the absence of the geolocation API in a sane manner (reverse geo-code via postcode for example).
@Jaime said in Angular 2 first impression:
However, it won't be long before the framework moves on to another major version and stops maintaining the code that your version independent url points to because they will call it a "legacy version" even though it was brand new 18 months ago.
You can keep on using whatever framework version you like, worst comes to worst you can keep your own fork of the git repo (if it is opensource). I suppose if browsers depreciate certain events etc then it might be a problem, but typically it takes a least a year until the major browsers completely remove it, unless it is security related. Generally they give you plenty of forewarning.
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@Jaime said in Angular 2 first impression:
deployment was a solved problem long ago
Nope. Except that people did solve it. By building applications using HTML and Javascript and AJAX.
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@lucas1 said in Angular 2 first impression:
but typically it takes a least a year until the major browsers completely remove it, unless it is security related. Generally they give you plenty of forewarning.
So you agree... an unmaintained web app will start to lose features for some of its viewers in as little as a year.
@lucas1 said in Angular 2 first impression:
worst comes to worst you can keep your own fork of the git repo (if it is opensource)
Sure, but then you are responsible for forward compatibility with new browsers, and those issues will happen soon, so you have just taken on a maintenance load.
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@Jaime Desktop apps have similar problems. The timeframe is longer, but the compatibility breakage tends to be larger when it hits. (Also, deploying a custom desktop app across many different operating systems is much worse.)
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@dkf said in Angular 2 first impression:
The timeframe is longer,
@Jaime said in Angular 2 first impression:
This happens to desktop apps too, but desktop features are retired on a schedule that's more on the order of tens of years, not months.
Once again, this is my point.
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@Jaime said in Angular 2 first impression:
So you agree... an unmaintained web app will start to lose features for some of its viewers in as little as a year.
This is really the very worst case scenario and not representative of what will actually happen.
Most rely on existing browser APIs and they aren't going to vanish. In fact these things have been stable for years now.
I really feel like it is a case of "lets bitch about a perceived problem I have as someone that doesn't work in the industry".
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@Vaire Where'd Jesus go?
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@xaade Holy non sequitur Batman!
I mean, if you mean my old neighbor Jesus Gonzales, last I heard he worked for Intel.
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@lucas1 said in Angular 2 first impression:
This is really the very worst case scenario and not representative of what will actually happen.
It's actually kind of funny that in another currently active thread on this forum, people are talking about how FireFox is on a rampage breaking tons of shit with their rapid release cycle.
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@Jaime I am at version 37, and holding. If there was ANYTHING that wasn't Chrome, that was as Firefox used to be, I would switch. I fucking HATE their retarded release cycle thing. Whatever happened to the Major.Minor.Trivial update scheme? Why keep incrementing the major version number? Why mess with established stuff that was working? Why keep adding crap nobody asked for (like a fucking chat client!) and CONSTANTLY changing the ui?
I have pale moon installed, but it just isn't as good. [sigh]
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@Vaire I don't know why, but they keep doing it. Just because it's stupid doesn't mean my customers won't be adversely affected by it.
As the world switched from desktop apps to web apps, my maintenance bug queue shifted from being full of install issue to being full of browser compatibility issues. We traded a not-so-hard problem for a much harder problem.
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@Jaime said in Angular 2 first impression:
@Vaire I don't know why, but they keep doing it. Just because it's stupid doesn't mean my customers won't be adversely affected by it.
As the world switched from desktop apps to web apps, my maintenance bug queue shifted from being full of install issue to being full of browser compatibility issues. We traded a not-so-hard problem for a much harder problem.
Heh, I used to have that problem, until I sold out and went fully corporate. Now we simply tell the users we don't support their browser of choice. It is evil, but it makes my life easier :D
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@RaceProUK said in Angular 2 first impression:
when it can be done in several milliseconds on the client?
For the usual reason: someone with access to F12 (ok, not on mobile) who just disabled client-side validation. We even had a front-page story about it, the pizza order guy who un-disabled the submit button.
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@FrostCat Oh yay, yet again my point is ignored in favour of being a smartarse.
Woo.
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@Vaire said in Angular 2 first impression:
Now we simply tell the users we don't support their browser of choice. It is evil, but it makes my life easier
Management tried that at the last job. We found a major thing that didn't work with IE10, and they added it to the "not supported" browser list. Then MS decided that Windows 8 could only run IE10 or later. They though about adding Windows 8 to the not supported list until they realized that they simply couldn't win this battle. It's easier to not support old browsers than it is to not support new browsers since yelling at people for having old stuff sounds a lot more rational than yelling at people for having the only version of Windows they actually sell in stores.
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@Jaime
Meh, working for a Fortune 20 company here, they simply do not care what is "rational." Also, I am the senior dev in my division, my word is law. Normally I am happy to support whatever browser people want (so long as it doesn't reek of hipster), but I have that official policy to fall back on, whenever it suits me (e.g. too lazy/busy) :D
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@Vaire said in Angular 2 first impression:
Whatever happened to the Major.Minor.Trivial update scheme?
Vivaldi uses it.
Come to the dark side, we have . And sane version numbers.
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@asdf said in Angular 2 first impression:
@Vaire said in Angular 2 first impression:
Whatever happened to the Major.Minor.Trivial update scheme?
Vivaldi uses it.
Come to the dark side, we have . And sane version numbers.
I have been toying with the idea of trying Vivaldi. Is is that good?
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@RaceProUK said in Angular 2 first impression:
being a smartarse.
In addition to that I was giving, you know, the more or less canonical reason for not doing client-side validation. IOW, only being a smartass as a side effect.
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@Vaire said in Angular 2 first impression:
I have been toying with the idea of trying Vivaldi. Is is that good?
It's basically Chrome without all the Google stuff and with a lot of customization options. I like it, and so do many other ex-Opera users.
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@asdf
But ... Chrome ... is it built on Chromium? :(
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@Vaire said in Angular 2 first impression:
is it built on Chromium
Yes. Like every browser except FF and IE these days. Presto and all other alternative rendering engines are officially dead and using Chromium as a whole is the only supported way of using Blink.
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@asdf said in Angular 2 first impression:
@Vaire said in Angular 2 first impression:
is it built on Chromium
Yes. Like every browser except FF and IE these days. Presto and all other alternative rendering engines are officially dead and using Chromium as a whole is the only supported way of using Blink.
But ... Chromium ...
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@blakeyrat said in Angular 2 first impression:
@lucas1 I'll put it this way: are websites better than 2016 than they were in 2010? From the user's perspective.
I would argue at best, on-par. And the websites I use day-to-day are generally speaking worse. By doing stuff like, for example, throwing away the entire concept of WYSIWYG and replacing it with broken Markdown bullshit.
As a user? Yes. Undeniably so. Mobile websites are much better to use, and much more common (much less of this
m.website.com
bullshit and much lessxkcd.com/869/
bullshit). Desktop sites use about 90% less Java Applets and Flash. HTML5 is a thing, and the world is much better for it.Sure, there's the "Everything is a phone" brainworm, and JS SPA stuff is kinda bloated, but... honestly... would you really rather deal with Flash?
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@sloosecannon Flash was bad because it had security holes. Not because it was a bad user experience.
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@blakeyrat said in Angular 2 first impression:
@sloosecannon Flash was bad because it had security holes. Not because it was a bad user experience.
Uh, I beg to differ. Flash was slower than any of these JS SPA frameworks, and bad security is bad UX!
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@sloosecannon said in Angular 2 first impression:
bad security is bad UX
Not always; removing security can improve responsiveness, which improves UX despite being a bad practice.
Users only really want security when it is too late. The rest of the time, they mostly hate it or ignore it.
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@dkf said in Angular 2 first impression:
@sloosecannon said in Angular 2 first impression:
bad security is bad UX
Not always; removing security can improve responsiveness, which improves UX despite being a bad practice.
Users only really want security when it is too late. The rest of the time, they mostly hate it or ignore it.
Well, OK. Flash bad security is bad UX. When you get that bad..... yeah it's bad UX
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@FrostCat said in Angular 2 first impression:
In addition to that I was giving, you know, the more or less canonical reason for not doing client-side validation.
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@Vaire well you guys forgot how fucking bad 3.6 was to use. It was broken 4 was better but with some fucking horrendous bugs. I like the quick releases.
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@lucas1 But 3.6 has this theme: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/mushroomkingdom/
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classic theme for life.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-gb/firefox/addon/classicthemerestorer/
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@Vaire said in Angular 2 first impression:
Why keep adding crap nobody asked for (like a fucking chat client!) and CONSTANTLY changing the ui?
Just fecking remove it from the bar like you always have been able to.
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@blakeyrat said in Angular 2 first impression:
So? For a forum I don't see that that matters.
Now you're just taking the piss. You don't see how it could matter that it takes minutes for a post to show up in a discussion??
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@Vaire said in Angular 2 first impression:
Meh, working for a Fortune 20 company here, they simply do not care what is "rational."
My story was from my time at a Fortune 20 too. 5% chance it was the same place. Healthcare?
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@lucas1 said in Angular 2 first impression:
Why didn't you guys just force the app into legacy IE mode?
"Work on the problem" included doing anything - including proposing and testing changing the document mode. Until management decided it was worth assigning a resource to it, there was no way to tell one of the data center guys to change anything on the web server.
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@Jaime Why is it the browser's fault that you guys didn't bother trying this when application testing or the corp takes ages to implement anything?
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@Polygeekery Correct. In fact, a little server-imposed delay might have prevented a thousand conversations that were just 40,000 posts of RaceProUck and Accalia making animal noises at each other. We never had those on Community Server.
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@lucas1 It's not the browser's "fault". It's the fact that the reality of web development is that you have to keep your site compatible with the march of progress in browser-land. This is new effort that comes with the decision of building a product as a web-based product.
Sometimes it's a great trade-off. The fact that my stuff is available to the entire planet and is linkable to a tremendous number of other things is often well worth the effort.
However, if you are building a product with a limited user base, especially if you control the computers of those users, then you don't really care about the reach advantage and the maintenance effort becomes a cost that brings very little benefit.
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@jamie @lucas1 can one of you change your avatar if you're going to get in extended conversations with each other? It's pretty confusing
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Well played, @blakeyrat
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@blakeyrat said in Angular 2 first impression:
just 40,000 posts of RaceProUck and Accalia making animal noises at each other.
You're just jealous that you can't do that. Well, you can make the noises, but blakeycat doesn't do 'em back, or so I assume.