Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.
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@cheong said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
For each time, the computer works for a few month and the symtoms reappears.
Wait, is it just overheating from getting clogged with dust over a couple months?
Because a can of compressed air costs like $1.50.
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@coldandtired If your computer has the new type of BIOS I can't remember the name of right now, Windows is supposed to save the key in there, so if you reinstall the same edition of Windows it should just work "automagically".
If you have a key printed on a sticker, the first time you install Windows 10 that key gets converted into a Windows 10 key (as well as whatever version it was for previously), so if your BIOS doesn't save the key you can use the sticker key and it still works for Windows 10.
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@blakeyrat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Correct. Windows 10 is exactly like fascism. Mussolini designed it personally. From beyond the grave.
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@blakeyrat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Correct. The way Microsoft tries to push/trick/force you to install Windows 10 is exactly like fascism.
FTFY
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@blakeyrat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@cheong said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
For each time, the computer works for a few month and the symtoms reappears.
Wait, is it just overheating from getting clogged with dust over a couple months?
Because a can of compressed air costs like $1.50.
Because our room have no air-con, we do clean up internal dust around every 3 months. I don't think that level of dust will cause it to overheat.
Btw, the temperature sensor of display card also reports nothing abnormal.
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@FrostCat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Ya know what makes the pressure to upgrade stop 100%? Upgrading.
Maybe when MS releases a new OS that isn't dog shit.
@TimeBandit said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@anotherusername Even today. Plug a USB key, Windows is looking for a driver.... wait...wait...done.
Unplug the key, plug it into another USB port and it starts all over again !
Same device==same driver
you stupid-piece-of-broken-shit !And it doesn't matter if it's a keyboard, a mouse or whatever.
DeviceID+portID == DriverID
According to this, lazy idiot manufacturers are to blame.
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According to this lazy idiot, manufacturers are to blame.
Note : fixed your placement of the comma ;)
Of course, MS blame other manufacturers.
From the article
Serial numbers are optional on USB devices. If the device has one, then Windows recognizes the device no matter which USB port you plug it into. But if it doesn't have a serial number, then Windows treats each appearance on a different USB port as if it were a new device.
and
this would not have been a problem if the device had a proper serial number
But the serial number is OPTIONAL you stupid dumb-fuck.
MS : it's not our fault if we designed our solution around an optional parameter
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@cheong said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Everything except the harddisk
So they swapped the motherboard too?
Question: If you've slowly swapped every PC component over time, is it still the same computer?
Onebox fail:
The ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus' paradox, is a thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object.
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@blakeyrat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@error said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Ya know what makes fascist oppression stop 100%? Utter submission to authority.
Correct. Windows 10 is exactly like fascism. Mussolini designed it personally. From beyond the grave.
I was just taking his argument and scaling it up. I was saying it was a bullshit argument, not that Microsoft's actions were fascist, or even that I dislike Windows 10. (I actually upgraded to Windows 10 pre-release.)
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Windows 10 is literally worse than Hitler.
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@bb36e said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Windows 10 is literally worse than Hitler.
Alright, so. Wrap it up guys, we're done here.
Also why is my text bold now?
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@error said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Alright, so. Wrap it up guys, we're done here.
NO! I still need to know if it's worse than Stalin!
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@error I didn't close my
<b>
. I guess this might be a bug.
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@blakeyrat It could be that. It's last year's NUC and the BIOS looks pretty modern, with drop-down boxes and full mouse support.
From what I remember, I had to skip the key part of the install, and after a few hours/days it updated the system info to say that it was registered.
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@bb36e said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@error I didn't close my
<b>
. I guess this might be a bug.Yes it "might be a bug
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"
CTFY
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@Lorne-Kates testing
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@fbmac said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@Lorne-Kates testing
will it work?
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@fbmac worked with small tag, but was barely noticeable
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@fbmac said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@Lorne-Kates testing
Maybe a bit?
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@cheong said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Because our room have no air-con
Air conditoners are only like £50 at Tesco's. Why not just go get one and live like a first-worlder? Otherwise, get something that can handle the heat.
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@TimeBandit said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
But the serial number is OPTIONAL you stupid dumb-fuck.
MS : it's not our fault if we designed our solution around an optional parameterWould it be a better experience if they treated all devices with no serial number as being the same device? Yes, if you only have one, it'll be great. If you have two, it gets weird and confusing, as was explained in the article. And in that case it's much harder to work out what's going on and it will be perceived as Windows' fault ("Windows keeps screwing up my autoplay settings!").
The real should be reserved for the example given in the article of the manufacturer who gave all their devices the same serial number.
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@fbmac said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@Lorne-Kates testing
You have failed this city.
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@Onyx said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
"
CTFY
{puts another notch in his post
"Got another one'
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@JBert said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I always wonder though how such an install generates a machine license. Do you simply start an upgrade from USB?
Here's what I know:
Digital Entitlement means the key is stored on Microsoft's servers and they just check for matching hardware. If you change your motherboard, you lose your digital entitlement license. Maybe some other hardware is factored in too, but everyone seems to have the same experience with the motherboard. What effectively happens when you upgrade a device is that your (possibly transferrable) existing license becomes invalid and is converted into a Digital Entitlement license, and isn't necessarily stored anywhere on the machine.
This leads me to believe that if you use an existing motherboard tied to a digital entitlement license, you can freshly install Windows 10 on any machine built with it and it will activate automatically. I don't know for sure if that's how it works but it sounds like it could be that way.
As for the installer, you can run it on the machine you want to upgrade without any need for a USB, or you can use a USB if you want.
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@cheong You're right, I don't need to upgrade, but I wanted to see what everyone is talking about with my own eyes, and that laptop is the one where the upgrade would be least disruptive, so my intention was to use it as the proverbial canary in the coal mine. Picture my surprise when after all the clamoring about how hard MS is pushing the Win10 upgrade, I had the exact opposite experience of not getting it to trigger despite actually wanting it...
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@LB_ I did an upgrade install, then a clean install onto an SSD. Didn't need to enter my key either time.
I then built a new PC, reusing my SSD and graphics card. I had to enter the Win7 key again on this install, but it all activated fine. The only thing common to this build and the one I first activated my Windows 10 install on is the graphics card
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@drurowin said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Air conditoners are only like £50 at Tesco's. Why not just go get one and live like a first-worlder? Otherwise, get something that can handle the heat.
Waiting for next building wall repair.
Because of the design of our building, they cannot find a place to build scaffold so they can start to work (I live in 20th+ floor). It would have been okay if there is "building wall repair" happening because in that case the scaffold will be built from ground up.
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@Scarlet_Manuka said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Would it be a better experience if they treated all devices with no serial number as being the same device?
Having all the same serial number is the same as having no serial number.
And please explain to me what does the serial number got to do with choosing the driver used for the device ?
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@TimeBandit said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Having all the same serial number is the same as having no serial number.
No, it isn't. The presence of a serial number implies that you should be able to uniquely identify the device. The absence of one means you know that you cannot.
And please explain to me what does the serial number got to do with choosing the driver used for the device ?
Because the driver has a configuration that's supposed to follow the device. Like, in the case of mass storage devices, which drive letter was assigned to it (mass storage devices are actually required to have serial numbers, for this reason). To accomplish that, it has to recognize the device, and if it can't, it falls back to which USB port it was plugged into. That way if you have two, say, USB display adapters, and they don't uniquely identify themselves, it'll always add them in the same location, with the same configuration. Or the same for two USB COM port adapters. Etc. Most of the time, you won't be unplugging and moving those devices, so associating them with the USB port is the most logical way to keep them consistent.
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@anotherusername said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
The presence of a serial number implies that you should be able to uniquely identify the device.
Unless the manufacturer's been an asshat and given all of their devices the same serial number. There have been cases of idiots doing that sort of thing…
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@anotherusername said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@TimeBandit said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
And please explain to me what does the serial number got to do with choosing the driver used for the device ?
Because the driver has a configuration that's supposed to follow the device. Like, in the case of mass storage devices, which drive letter was assigned to it (mass storage devices are actually required to have serial numbers, for this reason). To accomplish that, it has to recognize the device, and if it can't, it falls back to which USB port it was plugged into. That way if you have two, say, USB display adapters, and they don't uniquely identify themselves, it'll always add them in the same location, with the same configuration. Or the same for two USB COM port adapters. Etc. Most of the time, you won't be unplugging and moving those devices, so associating them with the USB port is the most logical way to keep them consistent.
Sorry, I don't understand how choosing a drive letter or any other of this configuration stuff applies to choosing a driver.
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@boomzilla what if you add a second device that's functionally identical to another device previously installed, but there's an updated version of the driver now? What's Windows to do:
- use the old driver for both devices
- upgrade the old driver without telling you
- use the new driver for the new device, without changing the old one
But... even if the driver is identical, or even if you still don't understand how any of this applies to it choosing a driver, it still needs to choose which configuration to use for the device, where you'll run into the same exact problem. Moreso, even, if it doesn't use the same exact version of the same exact driver for both devices. There may be bugs that are fixed, or other changes in behavior or functionality. The new driver's configuration may not be backward-compatible with the old driver (hell, since these are third-party drivers, the old driver's config may not be forward-compatible either), and when mismatch happens the config may be reset to defaults -- or the driver might even just crash.
If you don't identify the devices in some consistent way (perhaps just which of them waves its hand first during boot to say "hey! remember me?"), you get potentially random changes in behavior and/or random configuration changes, config erasures, or even crashes.
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@anotherusername said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
what if you add a second device that's functionally identical to another device previously installed, but there's an updated version of the driver now? What's Windows to do:
What if there's an updated driver published while you're using the original device? I feel like we're creeping back into shooting aliens territory here. Also, I can't understand why it would matter that it's a different device WRT driver updates. Seems like your system update stuff should just take care of that (unless you explicitly ask for an update).
@anotherusername said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
If you don't identify the devices in some consistent way (perhaps just which of them waves its hand first during boot to say "hey! remember me?"), you get potentially random changes in behavior and/or random configuration changes, config erasures, or even crashes.
Again, this all sounds unrelated to the question and the problem.
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@boomzilla said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Again, this all sounds unrelated to the question and the problem.
No. It isn't. Even if you think it could just re-use the exact same driver without worrying about whether it's the same exact device, it still needs to link the config to the exact device somehow.
Plus, if you just use the same exact driver for all devices of that type, then you can't have different devices using different versions of the driver. So not only haven't you solved your problem, but you've now also introduced an extra limitation on the user.
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@anotherusername said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@boomzilla said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Again, this all sounds unrelated to the question and the problem.
No. It isn't. Even if you think it could just re-use the exact same driver without worrying about whether it's the same exact device, it still needs to link the config to the exact device somehow.
Plus, if you just use the same exact driver for all devices of that type, then you can't have different devices using different versions of the driver. So not only haven't you solved your problem, but you've now also introduced an extra limitation on the user.
But...how does the existence of a serial number change anything about the driver? How does looking for a driver do anything to help you find the configuration?
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@boomzilla because they're one-to-one. The "driver" is just something in the Windows registry that tells it which .dll files to use, and contains configuration information for it. If it already has the exact same driver, it won't reinstall it; it'll just create new registry settings linking to the same .dll files, with a different configuration.
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@anotherusername IOW, it doesn't have anything to do with it except as a design bug on MS's part.
Brain. Fucking. Washed.
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@boomzilla the "bug" works fine. Your alternative is broken.
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@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Or it can run Windows and never be connected to the Internet
Looks like they're pretty persistent this time.
They might cross the air gap on this one.
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@anotherusername said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@boomzilla the "bug" works fine. Your alternative is broken.
Uh huh.
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@anotherusername said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@boomzilla the "bug" works fine. Your alternative is broken.
The alternative is :
- plug a keyboard in any USB port, it works as soon as it is plugged.
- plug a USB key in any USB port, it works as soon as it is plugged.
- plug a USB-COM adapter in any USB port, it works as soon as it is plugged.
At least, that is the behavior I get, but I'm using open-source-crappy Linux, so things may be different in MS-Land
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@TimeBandit said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
At least, that is the behavior I get, but I'm using open-source-crappy Linux
Yeah, my COM ports are all jacked up on FreeBSD, but at least they don't "move around". Nope, they just simply don't work right at all...
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@TimeBandit right, and people who want to use two USB-COM adapters are . What happens then? Does it just put them in order of which one was plugged in first? Sounds broken. How do you know they'll be the same every time you boot up?
Anyway, the whole "it works as soon as it is plugged" issue probably indicates that your OS just installs the driver it's already got, while Windows checks online before installing anything. So it takes Windows a few seconds longer, but only the first time you plug it into the port, and it doesn't really take that long anyway.
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@anotherusername On Windows, I think it isn't the online driver search that takes so much time. If you disable it, and you plug in your USB device in another port than usually, it also takes some time to install.
On Linux/BSD, there barely is such a thing as an 'installed' device. The usual way of doing things is to search for the appropriate driver every time a piece of hardware is detected, but this is done so quickly that you don't notice it. If you have multiple devices of the same kind you might indeed need to do some manual configuration to tell the hardware detection algorithm which one is which and how to order/name them.
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@Grunnen said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
you might indeed need to do some manual configuration to tell the hardware detection algorithm
it's pretty rare though. UDEV has a pretty decent set of default rules built in.
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@anotherusername said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@TimeBandit right, and people who want to use two USB-COM adapters are . What happens then?
Honestly, I never tried it, so I can't say. I'll have to try it to know.
Anyway, the whole "it works as soon as it is plugged" issue probably indicates that your OS just installs the driver it's already got, while Windows checks online before installing anything. So it takes Windows a few seconds longer, but only the first time you plug it into the port, and it doesn't really take that long anyway.
Yes, it does take a while. When I plug a keyboard or mouse, why the fuck does it need to go check on the internet for a driver ?
It's just a fucking keyboard / mouse !
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@TimeBandit said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
It's just a fucking keyboard / mouse !
It doesn't know that!
Actually, until about Windows 8.1 it was assumed that Generic drivers are the last fallback to use, to be loaded only if all attempts at driver finding have failed (yes, even internet searching from MS's uber slow Windows Update databases).
Now at least, Windows will install a Generic driver for your keyboard/mouse/flash drive/etc if available, then reload a better one if found (that's what the fancy dialog is talking about, it's showing the progress of finding a "better" driver).