What happens when the Board Of Discourse begins to panic?
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@ChrisH said:
Okay, having read this a second time, Lawrence clearly is an idiot.
It took you two read-throughs to work that out? You are TR
.
I should elaborate a bit on this. When someone like the true-CEO asks you if you can guarantee something, if you can (Lawrence clearly could not, and he knew it) then you say, "Yes, of course." If you cannot guarantee it, you do not waffle on about this and that. You must simply say, "No." Sure, it sounds weak, but waffling on sounds even weaker. If he wants to know why you cannot guarantee it, he'll ask. If he doesn't ask why you can't guarantee it, you might ask him if he would like to know why, but I'm pretty sure that's a bad idea.You should instead take away the message that he was looking for you to admit something negative about yourself. Perhaps because he has it in for you, but perhaps because he wants honesty from the people working for him.
But Lawrence waffled on about what amounts to a load of "this and that" rather than spitting out the answer. He continued to waffle in the face of someone shouty demanding a simple yes/no answer repeatedly. He's an idiot of the first order.
Second idiocy: He was repeatedly told that nobody wanted to hear about the weak programmer. Repeatedly. How often does he have to be told to stop banging on about something before he gets the message?
And I got that lot from one reading.
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One thing that is supposed to happen at the undergrad level is that the student learns how to learn and is able to do independent study after finishing the undergrad program.
Bolded the relevant bit. If that actually happened, education would be infinitely more valuable than it is now. But they don't teach practical learning, they teach academic learning, which is useless in the real world.
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Bolded the relevant bit. If that actually happened, education would be infinitely more valuable than it is now.
It did happen for me, but that was almost 30 years ago, and may have been a function of where I went to school.
But they don't teach practical learning, they teach academic learning, which is useless in the real world.
Sophomore year, I was in an algorithms class and was explicitly told by the professor that they wouldn't be teaching anything useful because it would be obsolete within five years. We were expected to learn useful things on our own. For example, there was no course for C even though all of the advanced courses assumed you knew it. Instead, if you wanted to learn C, they gave you a pamphlet and told you to get a copy of K & R.
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One thing that is supposed to happen at the undergrad level is that the student learns how to learn and is able to do independent study after finishing the undergrad program. So that would be a benefit even if everything else turns out to be useless.
I hear this a lot, but I highly doubt it. At best, the degree says (perhaps) that you are statistically more likely to be capable of learning. It's certainly not a guarantee, and it does not prove at all where this originated. Plenty of people can learn and not have degrees, and plenty of people with degrees can't FizzBuzz.
I certainly would not say that university is where the ability to learn originates, and would wager that at best, people who have that ability are simply more likely able to get through it. It's basically just a test.
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What riles me most is the way he just kept taking it from his asshole boss
My guess is "too young and inexperienced to know better." The first real job I had out of college came with a boss who was somewhat abusive, and it took me longer than it should've to move on.
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About the second time the boss interrupted me about the estimate, I'd have just hung up.
Yes, but that's probably going to lead to you either being fired or quitting, hopefully the latter. Lawrence clearly didn't want to quit at that point.
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It did happen for me, but that was almost 30 years ago, and may have been a function of where I went to school.
I think it has more to do with the student than anything else, though the school can certainly be an important catalyst.
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Then he's a moron.
No job's worth that verbal abuse.
People like that chairman of the board are dicks because people like Lawrence tolerate them being dicks. If being a dick didn't advance his goals, he wouldn't have been a dick. You're encouraging dicks.
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Then he's a moron.
Well, yes, but a lot of people are when they're young.
Hopefully they learn from the experience.
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@blakeyrat said:
Then he's a moron.
Well, yes, but a lot of people are when they're young.
I like to think he was looking for a new job (which is difficult while working 10 hours a day), and not just spineless like the CEO.
But if Lawrence is young how come he was the technical lead in the first place?
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But if Lawrence is young how come he was the technical lead in the first place?
Reading between the lines, he's the only FTE, and it's a really small company?
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But if Lawrence is young how come he was the technical lead in the first place?
The CEO is 22.
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Second idiocy: He was repeatedly told that nobody wanted to hear about the weak programmer. Repeatedly. How often does he have to be told to stop banging on about something before he gets the message?
That bugged me. Not because of your raisins, but because the weak programmer kept being brought up like Chekhov's gun-- with this hint of "that's just what they thought-- at the time". And then that plotline is never resolved.
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Then he's a moron.
No job's worth that verbal abuse.
Imma gonna +:infinity: this.
I left my last job because of this exact reason. The boss and owner was a verbally abusive bully. I spent longer there than was probably healthy, but I was waiting to jump into a job instead of being unemployed. (Having a mortgage and starting a family does that to you).
Reading through that article was tough, because I went through that shit day after day. Insults. Being yelled at. Demanding "yes or no" answers to complex questions. Having shit blamed on you, then getting no acknowledgement of it once it was proven it wasn't your fault. Constantly being "shamed" and treated like a child instead of a professional. And if it wasn't you, then one of your co-workers was getting it, and everything was in earshot.
It was effecting my health. I was losing sleep. I'd start getting sick just to not go into work. I'd come home stressed out of my mind. Mix that with depression (per-councelling or medication), and it was destroying me.
It was at the point where I was in contact with the labor board, keeping a daily(!!!) log of his abusive behavior, and a step away from suing. There are labor lawyers who cum when you mentioned "constructive dismissal", especially in Ontario. I learned a lot of verbal self-defense and how to deal with abusive assholes, out of necessity.
Thank holy fuck I found another job (the one I'm in now)-- with sane and supportive co-workers, where everyone treats each other with respect and as professionals. The feeling of leaving a place like that-- and arriving at a place like this-- indescribable.
So yeah-- in retrospect there was a lot I could have done to minimize the emotional damage I was suffering, but it was still a toxic environment. It isn't worth it. Get out, get away and don't look back.
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Well I checked, he is not young after all, it seems he is very experienced too. So TR
is Lawrence for putting up with this crap, if this is the true account of assholery Milburn was depicting. Few times in the article, I had the urge to punch Lawrence in the face for it, and yet he waited til project was finished and Milburn could become richer and more obnoxious Milburn did a good job.
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one massively flawed study that was funded by a man who wanted to file a class action lawsuit.
That's a half-lie!
He also wanted to patent and monetize his own version of "some sorta fucking vaccine or something" (paraphrasing).
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One of the things which Lawrence mentioned was that nobody had done state machines on NLP systems, and that Siri and Google Now can only answer questions. This is not entirely true anymore, Google Now actually remembers earlier questions.
I've been toying around with it just now, and I was actually quite impressed by it. Here are a few questions I've asked them:
AlexMedia: What is the capital of Sweden?
Google: Stockholm is the capital of Sweden.
A: And what is its population?
G: According to Wikipedia, the population of Sweden was 9.593 million in 2013.AlexMedia: What is the second biggest city of Belgium?
Google: Here is some information from GeoNames (list of biggest Belgian cities)
A: And what's the weather like?
G: It's 5 degrees and clear in Belgium.AlexMedia: What is Narvik, Norway?
Google: According to Wikipedia, Narvik... (excerpt from Wikipedia)
A: And what's the weather like?
G: It's 3 degrees and partly cloudy in Narvik.
A: How do I get there?
G: Narvik, Norway is 1 day and 7 hours from your location by car in light traffic. Here are your directions.Pretty nifty, if you ask me.
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Whoa, you guys surely know how to party.
Most of those 9k posts are going in circles. You wouldn't be missing that much.
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Some NLP (like Google Now and Siri offer) is doable, and technology is rapidly advancing.
I asked Cortana to set a timer for 10 PM a few days ago, and instead of setting a timer or giving me options on what I could do, it opened a Bing search for "set a timer for ten prime minister".
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Google Now also knows what words are on your screen, so if there's a word you don't know, you can ask it what it means without needing to pronounce it right.
I wish it was available on my dhromebook and not just on an Android phone I don't have.
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I would gladly hire someone with 4 years of real experience over someone who has 4 years of education in the field.
My point here being that while the CEO in his early 20s and the newly-comissioned officer both have probably just about zero experience leading people in the real world, the latter will at least have learned the theory of it (and have had some practice at it in exercises). Also, I can tell you from experience that having just experience, without the theoretical basis behind it, isn’t going to get you as far as having been taught something and then gaining experience in the subject. (And it feels odd to be the one arguing for education, as I’m one of those people who could never pay enough attention to really get one.)
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I'd say that education versus experience is apples and oranges. Now education plus experience, thats a different thing. I'd expect someone with two years of each to outdo the people with four years of just one. But if someone hasn't done the study themselves, it might not be worth it for them to hire a fresh-faced grad—the chance of getting a smartass who won't listen to instructions because they think they know better than you is high.
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When the alternatives are "Work for company which has some warning signs" and "Not work at all", the choice can be a tough one.
Working for (or with) idiots: Sure, why not. We all have done that in one way or another.
Taking abuse and constantly being treated like a moron instead of a professional: No fucking way.Not showing resistance to assholes (and be it passive-aggressive) just makes them bigger assholes.
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On topic: The board of directors didn't actually exist, right? The whole company was just a smoke and mirrors act for the old geezer to screw some money out of the kid. I mean, maybe the board did exist, and the scam ran deeper than we'd think (they usually do), but the point is: Milhouse was holding all the cards; there's no reason not to assume that he was the wizard of Oz.
He had to force Lawrence out, because if the guy had actually produced a viable product despite everything, he would have been screwed when it turned out he didn't have a hope in hell of actually selling it to anyone.
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My guess is "too young and inexperienced to know better." The first real job I had out of college came with a boss who was somewhat abusive, and it took me longer than it should've to move on.
Looking at his picture and his LinkedIn profile, this either happend a really long time ago or no, he can't blame age nor inexperience.Also, how much experience do you need to recognize someone behaving like that as an asshole you don't want to work for? My three-year old could have told him that.
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I like to think he was looking for a new job (which is difficult while working 10 hours a day)
According to his story he only started looking for a new job at the very end.But if Lawrence is young how come he was the technical lead in the first place?
His bosses are incompetent idiots, and he was technical lead only in that they sometimes called him that.
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Fuck you Dicksauce, I'll answer to posts as I see fit.
On topic: The board of directors didn't actually exist, right? The whole company was just a smoke and mirrors act for the old geezer to screw some money out of the kid.
Then he should have hired more cheap morons like Nagesh, not someone actually competent.He *had* to force Lawrence out, because if the guy had actually produced a viable product despite everything, he would have been screwed when it turned out he didn't have a hope in hell of actually selling it to anyone.
Then he should have stopped the "CEO" from demoing it to customers. Not buying your theory.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
I spent longer there than was probably healthy, but I was waiting to jump into a job instead of being unemployed. (Having a mortgage and starting a family does that to you).
Oh man. Good to hear you made it out in the end.
When reading stories like this I really am glad for our bloated social security / unemployment system and employee-friendly laws. (Although we only got some kind of minimum wage agreement this year. Another)
So yeah-- in retrospect there was a lot I could have done to minimize the emotional damage I was suffering, but it was still a toxic environment. It isn't worth it. Get out, get away and don't look back.
+1 You have to escape that downward spiral. Once they get to where you doubt your own competence and abilities it's REALLY hard to even start looking for alternatives.
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But the 23 year old ceo who is afraid of confrontation was the mark. What purpose would failing to string him along serve?
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But the 23 year old ceo who is afraid of confrontation was the mark. What purpose would failing to string him along serve?
Oh, he was the money-collecting puppet, I'll give you that.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
The feeling of leaving a place like that-- and arriving at a place like this-- indescribable
Yeah, but now how are you gonna move forward in your career? I mean, going from company to company is the only way to be sure you're valued for your skill as a developer, not just your familiarity with the codebase. Are you gonna be able to do that, or are you going to become the fixture that new guys twenty years from now will look at and think “god I hope I don't end up like that”.
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Fair enough. I mean, it's anyone's guess where the money was coming from, but it's pretty obvious where it was going to.
I figure he didn't actually expect Lawrence to be able to find both hands with a map, he just needed someone with convincing enough credentials, but he got unlucky and ended up hiring someone truly passionate.
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Is there a true WTF here or is it more a train wreck?
It's Worse Than Failure - well, at least until it fails or they patent / build something someone else actually wants. Not holding my breath.
The fact their consultant seemed to back away wanting to avoid getting any of that shit on him just confirms in my mind they are fucked.
Heh, this puts my own nose in my naivety, hadn't even considered that angle.
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Also, how much experience do you need to recognize someone behaving like that as an asshole you don't want to work for? My three-year old could have told him that.
There's lots of reasons not to quit a job even if it's kind of bad, starting with the fear that you'll have a tough time finding a new one.
By experience I meant the knowledge that it's not worth working for a tyrant.
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By experience I meant the knowledge that it's not worth working for a tyrant.
Fair enough.
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I asked Cortana to set a timer for 10 PM a few days ago, and instead of setting a timer or giving me options on what I could do, it opened a Bing search for "set a timer for ten prime minister".
Cortana doesn't speak Milwaukee.
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AlexMedia: What is the capital of Sweden?Google: Stockholm is the capital of Sweden.A: And what is its population?G: According to Wikipedia, the population of Sweden was 9.593 million in 2013.
That is a lot of rotten fish being consumed.
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I asked Cortana to set a timer for 10 PM a few days ago, and instead of setting a timer or giving me options on what I could do, it opened a Bing search for "set a timer for ten prime minister".
Well why'd you ask her to do that? That doesn't even make sense.
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Yeah, but now how are you gonna move forward in your career?
I'll revisit in five years, like always. But for now, I'm in a place I like, with people I like, doing a job I like, for a salary I like, with a short commute I like. There's job security and benefits. And the company understands the need for adopting modern/future technologies-- even if slowly. Heck, there was just a year long ground-up rewrite of the product to completely incorporate responsive design-- and another that took on C# and web services to do something that no one else is doing with Navision.
I have no problems picking up new technology, so I'm not worried about becoming "The Guy Who Does Our COBOL-- Don't Touch His 286!"
{shrug} I've been moving my career forward for about 10 years, picking up experience and education, in order to reach this point. I'm happy, and I'm not going to kill myself with stress over all the myriad "what ifs" about what the future of a rapidly changing and unpredictable field MAY become.
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Now education plus experience, thats a different thing.
As I said at the start of this subthread :)
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One of the things which Lawrence mentioned was that nobody had done state machines on NLP systems, and that Siri and Google Now can only answer questions. This is not entirely true anymore, Google Now actually remembers earlier questions.
I've been toying around with it just now, and I was actually quite impressed by it. Here are a few questions I've asked them:
AlexMedia: What is the capital of Sweden?
Google: Stockholm is the capital of Sweden.
A: And what is its population?
G: According to Wikipedia, the population of Sweden was 9.593 million in 2013.
I'd say it should have returned the population of Stockholm.AlexMedia: What is the second biggest city of Belgium? Google: Here is some information from GeoNames (list of biggest Belgian cities) A: And what's the weather like? G: It's 5 degrees and clear in Belgium.
I'd say it should have returned the weather in Antwerp. Which, by the way, would probably have been particularly difficult. Even if it would have understood the question correctly, it would probably have returned the weather for Ghent, the third largest city. But Ghent is usually ranked #2 in such statistical lists, because Brussels, as the largest city of Belgium, forms its own federated state, divided into numerous municipalities, the largest of which is coincidentally called "Brussels" but only ranks #4 or so. The computer would need to understand this, and know how to alter the ranking list accordingly, to give the correct answer.So, I'm not all that impressed by the "Natural Language Processing" advances. It still looks a lot like a regular search engine that happens to have the capability to scrap unimportant parts of speech from the search terms.
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Which, by the way, would probably have been particularly difficult. Even if it would have understood the question correctly, it would probably have returned the weather for Ghent, the third largest city. But Ghent is usually ranked #2 in such statistical lists, because Brussels, as the largest city of ■■■■■■■, forms its own federated state, divided into numerous municipalities, the largest of which is coincidentally called "Brussels" but only ranks #4 or so. The computer would need to understand this, and know how to alter the ranking list accordingly, to give the correct answer.
Yeah but considering a Google Search produces this as the "top" result... it would have been easy to roll with that and give the weather for Antwerp.
Largest municipalities does give different results, but it's also not the question asked.
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Oh, that's better than I expected.
(My Google doesn't do that, however. Another feature only available for the US market?)
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That's Google UK. YMMV.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
I have no problems picking up new technology, so I'm not worried about becoming "The Guy Who Does Our COBOL-- Don't Touch His 286!"
Of course not. You are "The guy who has a shitload of corpses in his basement, don't touch his Windows XP".
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I'd say it should have returned the population of Stockholm.
That depends. In my questions "its" could refer to Stockholm as well as to Sweden.
I would probably give the same answers to those questions :D
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Brussels, as the largest city of ■■■■■■■, forms its own federated state, divided into numerous municipalities, the largest of which is coincidentally called "Brussels" but only ranks #4 or so. The computer would need to understand this, and know how to alter the ranking list accordingly, to give the correct answer.
Yes, but I think that condition applies to so many more cities, they can't get around supporting it.
