Overcome by Disgust
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They seem incapable of rational thought, and very unstable emotionally.
Not only crazy people get brainwashed. Hell, every war has a propaganda machine behind it, which exists for the sole purpose of convincing the masses that what they're doing is evil, and what we're doing is necessary evil.
Besides, it's not like they'll go to a refugee camp and outright say "hey, we're ISIS, here's a leaflet with our ideas, join us". It's just like street gangs - all you know is that you're just hanging out with some pals, praising Allah and shit, and suddenly you're on the wrong end of a drug mule or bombing operation. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they painted themselves as concerned citizens blaming Europe for ISIS.
My approach is somewhat different.
If that had even a remote chance to work, I'd be all for it. But it doesn't. You don't just rebuild a country overnight, I'm not sure if the NATO is even capable in terms of resources of doing it at all, so you'll stick millions of people in camps for decades. Not to mention the IS won't just stick around in Syria and wait till you wipe the last one of them - they'll go under, sneak to Europe and bombtthe shit out of your nice camps and European capitals alike.
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Like that famous Ford quote on car colors.
Or...anytime that Henry Ford went off on an anti-semitic rant...
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This post is deleted!
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The problem with a situation like this is we have one side parroting everything they saw on Fox News and another side parroting everything they read on Huffington Post. The latter seems to be the strategy Blakey has chosen. Neither side seems capable of realizing this is a nuanced situation that requires more than a black or white "all X are Y."
ISIS is fighting a type of cowardly warfare that western nations are clearly not equipped to fight until we have serious discussions with thoughts originating from our own brains rather than sensationalist media outlets.
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The problem with a situation like this is we have one side parroting everything they saw on Fox News and another side parroting everything they read on Huffington Post.
What I think is interesting is that even bringing up something that isn't the "Huffington Post" narrative results in people assuming that you're just repeating what you've heard on Fox News and are an irredeemable racist. It's not even acceptable to question anything.
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it's been 14 years in Afghanistan and there's not even much "rebuilding" going on at all
Maybe start blaming the radical Muslims for that.
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Neither side seems capable of realizing this is a nuanced situation that requires more than a black or white "all X are Y."
Ok.
ISIS is fighting a type of cowardly warfare that western nations are clearly not equipped to fight until we have serious discussions with thoughts originating from our own brains rather than sensationalist media outlets.
Why don't you share the thoughts originating from your own brain.
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@LaoC said:
it's been 14 years in Afghanistan and there's not even much "rebuilding" going on at all
Maybe start blaming the radical Muslims for that.
Oh, certainly. To be precise, it's the "brave Mujahedeen freedom fighters" the US armed by proxy to fight the Evil Empire™. Many of them (like Bin Laden) from Saudi Arabia, a country with a human rights record little different from the IS' that is to this day the second biggest recipient of US arms in the region, of course with a lot of support from locals now who have been very open to the teachings about the "Great Satan" after a decade and a half of Amercian style Freedom™.All of that is beside the point though. If @xaade's "plan" results in keeping hundreds of thousands of people in internment camps for decades because the supposed rebuilding isn't taking place, it doesn't matter who is ultimately to blame—it's simply a failure.
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What I think is interesting is that even bringing up something that isn't the "Huffington Post" narrative results in people assuming that you're just repeating what you've heard on Fox News and are an irredeemable racist. It's not even acceptable to question anything.
ASDESIGNED_WONTFIX
Seriously, though, that happened to me at least twice on the guacamole thread.
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Ew... did you really have to post that here?
Yes.
@Bort said:Oh, and I guess it looks like it's dead, too.
Yes.
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even though you suffer from an anxiety disorder
How about you research that first.
Anxiety disorder is not the same as paranoia.
start screaming more easily and more often than anyone I've seen here.
Yeah, I was pretty pissed at that moment.
I don't like being told I'm -ist for not wanting to have sex with whatever pops through the door, especially from a person that claims to be tolerant.
I wonder how you would you imagine yourself after a few decades (it's been 14 years in Afghanistan and there's not even much "rebuilding" going on at all) in a concentration camp.
It's not a perfect solution. I'll admit it. But neither is taking in as many refugees as you can fit.
But I want to point out. Why bomb France? They haven't "instigated like UK and US". It's because there is a % of Muslim culture that can not live in the same room as our culture.
When you take in one refugee, you take in a person. A person that can be helped and can integrate into society.
When you take in hundreds of thousands of refugees, you take in a culture, along with all its problems.
That's why most countries have immigration policies that limit how many people can immigrate in. They're hoping that it gives those people enough time to adapt to the local laws and government, before accepting new people. It's very wise.
Not only crazy people get brainwashed.
Exactly my point.
If you took every Nazi among other Germans into your country in the peak of WWII, how do you not expect to see a growth of problems driven by Nazi ideology.
and suddenly you're on the wrong end of a drug mule or bombing operation.
But I find it to be a stretch that said person would turn and blame Europe for ISIS bombing them, and then join ISIS.
"You guys were right for killing my family..."
No, I don't buy it.
so you'll stick millions of people in camps for decades. Not to mention the IS won't just stick around in Syria and wait till you wipe the last one of them - they'll go und
If that's a problem, then I slowly integrate the refugees into the local population over time.
But my long term goal would be to re-establish stability in the region, so that people who wanted to return would be able to return.
The problem with a situation like this is we have one side parroting everything they saw on Fox News and another side parroting everything they read on Huffington Post. The latter seems to be the strategy Blakey has chosen. Neither side seems capable of realizing this is a nuanced situation that requires more than a black or white "all X are Y."
Well, at least one person agrees with me.
What I think is interesting is that even bringing up something that isn't the "Huffington Post" narrative results in people assuming that you're just repeating what you've heard on Fox News and are an irredeemable racist. It's not even acceptable to question anything.
I need to be more like you. Just respond to the people that make sense. It's not worth it to try to reason with people who seem to be only driven by their emotions, and unable to even give me a strategy other than. "Just let them in".
No one's even answered how they expect hundreds of thousands of refugees to have jobs within enough time to ensure they can gain stability.
No, they'd rather turn their own cities into internment camps and pretend there won't be a problem, as long as they can pat themselves on the back.
Maybe start blaming the radical Muslims for that.
That was before the radicalization.
Then some extremists said, "Look I found these verses that let me oppress women."
Funny that, time and time again, the terrorists we catch aren't really practicing their faith. Even the female suicide bombers are partying and drinking.
Basically, it seems, they're told.
"There are two ways to heaven. One is really hard and takes discipline. The other lets you sin as much as you like as long as you strap a bomb to yourself in 5-10 years and blow yourself up."
Why don't you share the thoughts originating from your own brain.
Why bother. He'll just be painted into one of the two "sides".
it doesn't matter who is ultimately to blame—it's simply a failure.
There is no good solution from this.
None.....
Every outcome will be bad.
It's just that some people can't see the faults in their own plans. Even though there's evidence that this result will occur from many countries over many decades.
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If that's a problem, then I slowly integrate the refugees into the local population over time.
ISTM that Europe has been doing a worse job at this than the US. While we know that one of the Paris attackers was fresh off the boat, the others had been there for some time. Paris is fairly infamous for their car-b-cues. I remember reading about structural things that make it difficult for immigrants to get on the track to employment and integration in France. Then there are other things like Theo van Gough, Ayaan Hirsi Ali leaving.
Maybe they have it worse because it's easier for ME based groups to get weapons and support into Europe. Possibly my perception is not accurate in other ways.
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No one's completely wrong in this.
But as long as we keep painting our concerns as diametrically opposed, we will all end up completely wrong.
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He means completely wrong in this sense:
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Exactly my point.
If you took every Nazi among other Germans into your country in the peak of WWII, how do you not expect to see a growth of problems driven by Nazi ideology.
So... you're worried that the ISIS members that sneak in would brainwash the Europeans?
But I find it to be a stretch that said person would turn and blame Europe for ISIS bombing them, and then join ISIS.
"You guys were right for killing my family..."
No, I don't buy it.
So... you're not? Decide.
Besides, as I've said, they don't need to "join ISIS". They might just be conned into doing what ISIS wants them to do - I mean, if I was an ISIS terrorist trying to gather support, I'd probably spread the idea that Europe bred ISIS and to deal with them, we need to hit the root of the problem or something like that.
If that's a problem, then I slowly integrate the refugees into the local population over time.
But my long term goal would be to re-establish stability in the region, so that people who wanted to return would be able to return.
But there's no stability there now, and there won't be for many years, and besides no refugee is going to end up actually doing anything useful for the country that claims they're gonna kick them out back home any minute now.
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Not at all.
What I mean is that the media representation of integration in Europe, as viewed from the US, is probably as representative and balanced as the media representation of integration in the US as viewed from Europe.
There are issues with integrating a sudden influx of immigrants. Those issues are serious and difficult to deal with, but they are far from being relevant in the current case. Anyway, back to "totally wrong"...
While we know that one of the Paris attackers was fresh off the boat, the others had been there for some time.
This is factually incorrect and misleading.We know that (assuming the fingers and passport actually belonged to him) one of the Paris attackers recently passed through immigrant processing in Greece. That doesn't mean that he came there from Syria, that he's a Syrian, or even an immigrant. All we know is that he turned up at an immigrant processing centre with a fake Syrian passport.
We also know that he had managed to fly low enough under the radar wherever he came from that his fingerprints and DNA hadn't been taken by law enforcement. Or, if they had, that they haven't yet been matched up. Or that we haven't yet been told about it if they have.
It's technically true that the others who have been identified had been "there" (Europe) for "some time", but that's largely because that's, yknow, where they were born.
It's far more likely that the "fresh off the boat" guy was actually another European. Recruitment and training was apparently done in Europe.
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Like that famous Ford quote on car colors.
"If I asked my customers what color they wanted, they would have said horse"
Well, at least one of those guys came in through the refugee program. But I know you're too afraid to be called a racist to notice stuff like that.
Wrong.
Paris Attackers Are All European Nationals
None of the Paris attackers identified so far is a Syrian refugee.
Police believe attackers used forged passports to stigmatize refugees
There is evidence the Syrian passport found near the body of one of the Paris attackers is a fake.
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At least someone is paying attention.
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And EVEN IF some undetermined number of refugees were undercover ISIS agents-- so fucking what? What are those few people going to do? I mean:
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ISIS has no problem getting people passports and flying them, legally, anywhere in the world aboard a comfy jet, to a well funded place of residence, at any time. What the fuck would be the point of having someone spend weeks, months or years in a disease ridden shit-hole-- out of communication, possibly dying from exposure-- to end up in some random place with no contacts, plan or weapons-- or maybe just stuck in a ghetto for years? That seems very inefficient.
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If the mole isn't smuggling guns, all they are doing is bringing information-- spreading the word of ISIS. Well, ISIS doesn't seem to have any problem doing that through Amazing Technology Magic-- otherwise known as the MOTHERFUCKING INTERNET! I mean holy shit, what's easier-- doing everything in step #1, or pumping out another propaganda video, posting it on GooTube and Tweetbooking it.
So like I said, even if there were ISIS members amongst the refugees, BIG FUCKING DEAL! They will literally do no more harm than a goddamn Tweet. But you know what will do harm? Wasting millions or billions of dollars trying to ferret out that "omg ISIS in the crowd" guy, when that could be spent on:
- Cyber-security to identify and shut down ISIS communication channels OR
- Cyber-security to infiltrate ISIS communication channels to get intel on them
- Investigate and crack down on their supply chains for weapons. Those guns didn't originate in France. Blow up some gun runners!
- Investigate and crack down on their finances. Those guns didn't pay for themselves.
- Locate and run spec-ops on ISIS leaders-- and by spec-ops, I mean find them and shoot them in the head. Don't bomb collateral damage. Take out the insane leaders. Wait for the second in command to step out, then take them out too. Continue until their ranks thin, or the top leaders are afraid to do or say anything, or you're just left with charasmatic-less fucktards who will get the rest of the organization disbanded and killed
That whole thing should run you a couple hundred billion. You know what you do with the rest of the billion?
- Support the refugees. Get the innocent out of the line of fire
- Rebuild the entire region. Give them food, water, education, communication, travel. A well fed, well educated populace doesn't breed terrorists en masse. Win the hearts and minds by actually winning the hearts and minds. Someone is more likely to say "hmm, the West isn't so bad" when they have a room, understand math, and are watching Game of Thrones while eating a Twinkie.
Fuck, do I have to think of everything around here?
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@boomzilla said:
Possibly my perception is not accurate in other ways.
Or completely wrong.Excellent argument, as always.
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This is factually incorrect and misleading.
We know that (assuming the fingers and passport actually belonged to him) one of the Paris attackers recently passed through immigrant processing in Greece. That doesn't mean that he came there from Syria, that he's a Syrian, or even an immigrant. All we know is that he turned up at an immigrant processing centre with a fake Syrian passport.
There is absolutely nothing factually incorrect or misleading about what I said. I never said he came from Syria. In fact, it's worse that he probably didn't. But you've turned off your brain, apparently.
It's far more likely that the "fresh off the boat" guy was actually another European. Recruitment and training was apparently done in Europe.
Maybe, if he went to ISIS for training or something from Europe. But again, the flood of refugees is what allowed him to get back in without being noticed.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Wrong. http://www.ibtimes.com/paris-attack-2015-named-terrorists-all-european-nationals-not-syrian-refugees-2191677
Police believe attackers used forged passports to stigmatize refugees
There is evidence the Syrian passport found near the body of one of the Paris attackers is a fake.
None of those stories addressed the issue where the guy was fingerprinted when he was processed as a Syrian refugee. Now, if that turns out not to be accurate, that's another story. But I haven't heard anything to refute that.
I don't see how the passport being forged makes things any better if he was the guy who came through the processing stuff.
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@tufty said:
At least someone is paying attention.
Yes, but not you or @Lorne_Kates.
Or the media. Or the international law enforcement.
Only @Boomzilla. Apparently.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Or the media. Or the international law enforcement.
Only @Boomzilla. Apparently.
Apparently. And the WSJ, which @blakeyrat linked to reporting that they matched his fingerprints. But sure, you found some articles that ignored that part, so it must not be important.
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There is absolutely nothing factually incorrect or misleading about what I said. I never said he came from Syria.
No, you said he was "fresh off the boat". That phrase strongly implies that he was an immigrant, but there is absolutely no proof or indication that he was. All we know is that he was fingerprinted in Greece in October, specifically on the island of Leros, and then apparently travelled through Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Austria and eventually ended up in France, carrying out the usual refugee formalities as he went.What's not covered is the start of that voyage. Did he start in Syria, go through Turkey's enormously permeable border and then (one way or another) get himself over the Med to Leros, or did he go from Europe to Leros via the more traditional "tourist" route (there are ferries from Athens and the island has an airport).
And, as @Lorne_Kates has pointed out, it doesn't make a jot of difference either way. If he was, as is most likely, a European national deliberately and conspicuously travelling as "an immigrant", or if he was an immigrant who was somehow radicalised / coerced to the point of blowing himself up sometime between October 7 and November 13. It doesn't matter.
@boomzilla said:But again, the flood of refugees is what allowed him to get back in without being noticed
European terrorists and would-be-terrorists get themselves to Syria all the time, we know who they are, and they manage to get themselves back to their country of source as well - pretty much the only ones we manage to pick up are the stupid ones. If you know what you're doing, and have funding, there are effectively no border controls to deal with.You don't need immigrants, all you need are european papers, a cover story, and access to a small boat.
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until we have serious discussions with thoughts originating from our own brains rather than sensationalist media outlets.
Yeah... any ideas on how we can achieve that on any significant scale?There is no good solution from this.
Probably not; we're not starting from a good place. But shouldn't we be spending some effort on identifying the least-bad solutions?@Lorne_Kates said:
That whole thing should run you a couple hundred billion. You know what you do with the rest of the billion?
Learn whether one billion or 200 billion is bigger?
Seriously, those are probably better ways to attack the problem, and I don't imagine that they'll be left undone. But you forget the need to Be Seen Doing Something™. I also think you underestimate the difficulty of "find them and shoot them in the head". Look at how much effort and time was required to get to that point with ObL. (And the diplomatic fallout from that wasn't so good, either.)@Lorne_Kates said:
A well fed, well educated populace doesn't breed terrorists en masse.
That's why no terrorists come from Saudi Arabia, I suppose?
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@LaoC said:
Nobody said it was. It's also not what I would call "emotionally stable".even though you suffer from an anxiety disorder
How about you research that first.
Anxiety disorder is not the same as paranoia.
@LaoC said:
You weren't. So you were so emotional that you were incapable of rational thought because of something you imagined. By your definition, you're not someone who should be loose on civilization.start screaming more easily and more often than anyone I've seen here.
Yeah, I was pretty pissed at that moment.
I don't like being told I'm -ist for not wanting to have sex with whatever pops through the door, especially from a person that claims to be tolerant.
@LaoC said:
It's not a solution at all for all we know. And if you want to see what " taking in as many refugees as you can fit" means and how ridiculous it is to compare even Germany's intake to it, have a look at Lebanon. This tiny country of about four million has received way over a million refugees.I wonder how you would you imagine yourself after a few decades (it's been 14 years in Afghanistan and there's not even much "rebuilding" going on at all) in a concentration camp.
It's not a perfect solution. I'll admit it. But neither is taking in as many refugees as you can fit.
But I want to point out. Why bomb France? They haven't "instigated like UK and US". It's because there is a % of Muslim culture that can not live in the same room as our culture.
What's with "our" culture? Do you even know what French culture is? Remember "Freedom Fries", when Americans found it necessary to stress how much they despise the French recently? The French by the way happen to have some Basque, Breton and Corse culture in "their" country of which the same seems to be true, judging from past bombings and shootings.When you take in one refugee, you take in a person. A person that can be helped and can integrate into society.
And the hundreds of thousands cannot be helped and integrated into society, or why did you mention that?When you take in hundreds of thousands of refugees, you take in a culture, along with all its problems.
If you took every Nazi among other Germans into your country in the peak of WWII, how do you not expect to see a growth of problems driven by Nazi ideology.
Newsflash: Nazis didn't flee Nazi Germany.But I find it to be a stretch that said person would turn and blame Europe for ISIS bombing them, **and then join ISIS**.
Most refugees haven't had their families killed specifically by ISIS but by general civil war. They don't care whether the bombs come from Assad, the "opposition", ISIS, Al Nusra or whover is shooting at each other in their respective area."You guys were right for killing my family..."
No, I don't buy it.
They will become susceptible to people hostile to their host countries' culture though if that country treats them like shit. Internment camps and such, you know.If that's a problem, then I slowly integrate the refugees into the local population over time.
You sound like you've played a lot of Sim City.But my long term goal would be to re-establish stability in the region, so that people who wanted to return would be able to return.
That's a laudable idea. Maybe start blaming your government for destabilizing pretty much everything in the region. Except for the really nasty guys like the Saudis of course—regarding those, it's imperative that they be kept in power.I need to be more like you. Just respond to the people that make sense. It's not worth it to try to reason with people who seem to be only driven by their emotions, and unable to even give me a strategy other than. "Just let them in".
Says the most emotionally unstable poster of all. The mind boggles at this level of delusion.No one's even answered how they expect hundreds of thousands of refugees to have jobs within enough time to ensure they can gain stability.
Lebanon managed. Maybe their culture is just stronger, or what do you think?That was before the radicalization.
And "hey, here are some free Stingers courtesy of Uncle Sam, let's go jihad!"Then some extremists said, "Look I found these verses that let me oppress women."
Funny that, time and time again, the terrorists we catch aren't really practicing their faith. Even the female suicide bombers are partying and drinking.
So "Muslim culture" is the problem foir what definition of "Muslim"? Everything bearing the label? Then it's also "Christian culture" that is to blame when US troops say their prayers before unleashing wars that have killed hundreds of thousands in the last decade alone.@LaoC said:
it doesn't matter who is ultimately to blame—it's simply a failure.
There is no good solution from this.
None.....
Every outcome will be bad.
It's just that some people can't see the faults in their own plans. Even though there's evidence that this result will occur from many countries over many decades.
'twas your plan.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Fact check. You don't seriously want to call that "well educated", do you?A well fed, well educated populace doesn't breed terrorists en masse.
That's why no terrorists come from Saudi Arabia, I suppose?
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No, you said he was "fresh off the boat". That phrase strongly implies that he was an immigrant, but there is absolutely no proof or indication that he was. All we know is that he was fingerprinted in Greece in October, specifically on the island of Leros, and then apparently travelled through Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Austria and eventually ended up in France, carrying out the usual refugee formalities as he went.
FFS. He came through the damn refugee center. I stand by the language.
And, as @Lorne_Kates has pointed out, it doesn't make a jot of difference either way. If he was, as is most likely, a European national deliberately and conspicuously travelling as "an immigrant", or if he was an immigrant who was somehow radicalised / coerced to the point of blowing himself up sometime between October 7 and November 13. It doesn't matter.
What the actual fuck? You sound like Hillary Clinton, in a hearing about figuring out how to not get State Department employees killed, when asked about the details of some State Department employees getting killed, "What difference at this point does it make?"
I dare you to find something stupider to say!
If you know what you're doing, and have funding, there are effectively no border controls to deal with.
So what's one more easy way in?
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Newsflash: Nazis didn't flee Nazi Germany.
Nazi saboteurs left Germany, though. So did their soldiers.
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This post is deleted!
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Nobody said it was. It's also not what I would call "emotionally stable".
So, you think I'm incapable of living in a manner that doesn't threaten people simply because I don't like being in large crowds of people.
So you were so emotional that you were incapable of rational thought because of something you imagined. By your definition, you're not someone who should be loose on civilization.
Show me where I blew myself up.
have a look at Lebanon. This tiny country of about four million has received way over a million refugees.
Then there is the parlous state of Lebanon's government. Thousands took to the streets again this week to protest its mismanagement and corruption.
Lebanon has an extraordinary ability to remain stable despite everything. But if the current tensions lead to instability, the refugee crisis will only deepen further.Yeah, that worked out well for them.
And there are signs the current numbers of refugees already here are unsustainable.
The World Food Programme says it only has a third of the $4.5bn (£2.92bn) it needs to feed Lebanon's refugees. Wealthier nations are not giving enough to support them.
Syrians registered as refugees are now given only $13 (£8.44) a month in food vouchers a month to live on.What this tells me is that all the people pulling #refugeeswelcome don't actually give a fuck. They just want to look like they care so they can bully other people who don't look like they care.
I can't speak for others, but I actually donate to charities that help support people in north Africa, particularly vulnerable to extremist Muslims.
What's with "our" culture? Do you even know what French culture is?
You totally missed my point.
And the hundreds of thousands cannot be helped and integrated into society
Yeah, pretty much.
Please show me how you intend to give shelter and occupations, and careers to this influx of people, in order to create sustainable stability for them.
Until someone shows me how that is going to happen, their plans will stay off my radar.
Maybe start blaming your government for destabilizing pretty much everything in the region. Except for the really nasty guys like the Saudis of course
I do, and I do. I have a great disdain for Saudi "royalty or whatever"... they have some of the worst human rights violations. They truly treat women as objects.
Says the most emotionally unstable poster of all.
I don't care to respond to this.
You haven't shown me a sustainable plan, and yet you counter my concerns by attacking me as emotionally unstable. And you're doing so in the most crude of ways. It's like you enjoy mocking me simply because I don't agree with you.
Lebanon managed.
No, they did not.
And "hey, here are some free Stingers courtesy of Uncle Sam, let's go jihad!"
Yeah, I'm pretty much agreeing with you on this point.
So "Muslim culture" is the problem foir what definition of "Muslim"?
It's two separate problems. You're conflating the two.
Muslim culture from disadvantaged areas tends to want to control the government. It's a natural process that's observed throughout history and throughout multiple countries where their population % has become large enough. The Sharia law marches in UK is yet another example. Pocket communities form that don't integrate into secular based democracies. This occurs with influxes of immigration.
The Muslims that immigrate slowly, however, tend to integrate well into secular governments. I'm not sure what causes the difference, and it's something that I think we really need to find out.
This is a separate issue from terrorism.
'twas your plan.
There is no good plan.
There are compassionateless plans, and there are naive plans.
You're pushing everyone into corners of the room because you like to feel morally superior.
That phrase strongly implies that he was an immigrant, but there is absolutely no proof or indication that he was. All we know is that he was fingerprinted in Greece in October, specifically on the island of Leros, and then apparently travelled through Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Austria and eventually ended up in France, carrying out the usual refugee formalities as he went.
It's irrelevant how he came. The only relevant fact to this discussion is
carrying out the usual refugee formalities as he went.
You don't need immigrants, all you need are european papers, a cover story, and access to a small boat.
You're right. The best spot for a terrorist to blow himself up at, is everyone waiting at the security checkpoint. The irony of it.
Probably not; we're not starting from a good place. But shouldn't we be spending some effort on identifying the least-bad solutions?
That's because everyone waited until the problem came to their doorstep.
All this "compassion" was no where to be found for the last 15 years.
And it sickens me that people are using "compassion" to mock and belittle and bully people who are concerned about security.
I mean, how do you call it compassion to tell a French victim to "fuck off xenophobe".
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And it sickens me that people are using "compassion" to mock and belittle and bully people who are concerned about security.
And it sickens me that people are using "concerned about security" to justify their xenophobia.
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What this tells me is that all the people pulling #refugeeswelcome don't actually give a fuck. They just want to look like they care so they can bully other people who don't look like they care.
The SJW movement seems to attract people like that for some reason.
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Fuuuuuck.
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@LaoC said:
Newsflash: Nazis didn't flee Nazi Germany.
Nazi saboteurs left Germany, though. So did their soldiers.
Yes, if you "took" Nazi soldiers "into your country", you would indeed "expect to see a growth of problems driven by Nazi ideology", as the French can certainly confirm. Hardly comparable to people fleeing from a war zone.
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Hardly comparable to people fleeing from a war zone.
Sure. But we've already got one spectacular instance of people taking advantage of that.
@Lorne_Kates said:
And it sickens me that people are using "concerned about security" to justify their xenophobia.
What if you read what they wrote instead of what you think they wanted to write?
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Sure. But we've already got one spectacular instance of people taking advantage of that.
People take advantage of all kinds of nice things other people do.
That's not a reason to stop being nice.
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People take advantage of all kinds of nice things other people do.
That's not a reason to stop being nice.
But it's also not a reason to let them walk all over you. Or to consider the repercussions of your actions before going forward.
Nah, better to just call anyone who doesn't automatically agree with your position a racist xenophobe.
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But it's also not a reason to let them walk all over you. Or to consider the repercussions of your actions before going forward.
Ok; but you're talking about a situation where 1/50,000th of the people allowed into Europe were interested in doing violence. Statistically, that's zero. So we should change zero policies as a result.
In the US the number is actual zero, not just statistically zero.
Nah, better to just call anyone who doesn't automatically agree with your position a racist xenophobe.
I didn't call anybody that.
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@LaoC said:
Oh, your "phobia" is suddenly about "not liking"? Funny how you got into a hissy fit when I said someone's freaking out was a phobic reaction.Nobody said it was. It's also not what I would call "emotionally stable".
So, you think I'm incapable of living in a manner that doesn't threaten people simply because I don't like being in large crowds of people.
Anyway, no, I don't think so. I'm just applying your criteria to yourself.@LaoC said:
If blowing yourself up is a necessary symptom you want to see before diagnosing emotional instability, I can reassure you: the number of emotionally instable refugees is around one in a million.So you were so emotional that you were incapable of rational thought because of something you imagined. By your definition, you're not someone who should be loose on civilization.
Show me where I blew myself up.@LaoC said:
As I said: a tiny country, weak economy, just out of a civil war, and now that they've taken refugees again (after the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians already living there) in a ratio of more than 1:4, their conditions might potentially lead to instability—of course, that's good reason to sound the klaxons over one of the world's strongest economies taking one for a hundred or so citizens.have a look at Lebanon. This tiny country of about four million has received way over a million refugees.
Then there is the parlous state of Lebanon's government. Thousands took to the streets again this week to protest its mismanagement and corruption.
Lebanon has an extraordinary ability to remain stable despite everything. But if the current tensions lead to instability, the refugee crisis will only deepen further.Yeah, that worked out well for them.
@LaoC said:
11M empty homes sound like a good start to me. Regarding jobs I'm sure given a fair distribution Europe's economy could easily provide for everybody, considering that hundreds of thousands of people spend all day doing nothing but thinking up new ways of "stimulating demand", i.e. using psychological tricks to coax people into buying stuff they don't need. Of course that's rather utopian in the current market-totalitarian climate, but still less utopian than setting up internment camps and expecting any outcome that's not utter chaos.And the hundreds of thousands cannot be helped and integrated into society
Yeah, pretty much.
Please show me how you intend to give shelter and occupations, and careers to this influx of people, in order to create sustainable stability for them.
@LaoC said:
"Taking responsibility" is a very popular phrase when it's about going somewhere to kill people. Now would be the time to take some *actual* responsibility for our aquiescence to politicians' support for these assholes.Maybe start blaming your government for destabilizing pretty much everything in the region. Except for the really nasty guys like the Saudis of course
I do, and I do. I have a great disdain for Saudi "royalty or whatever"... they have some of the worst human rights violations. They truly treat women as objects.You haven't shown me a sustainable plan, and yet you counter my concerns by attacking me as emotionally unstable. And you're doing so in the most crude of ways. It's like you enjoy mocking me simply because I don't agree with you.
You've shown me a completely ludicrous plan and claim something else would be impossible that people in a much much worse situation such as the Lebanese are simply *doing*. You were the one who started to call other emotionally unstable and unworthy of discussion. I'm just showing the plank in your own eye.@LaoC said:
Because there are "tensions" that might possibly cause "instability"? Whow. Note we're discussing not even taking a tenth of what they did.Lebanon managed.
No, they did not.@LaoC said:
Insofar as it has no practical consequences for you.And "hey, here are some free Stingers courtesy of Uncle Sam, let's go jihad!"
Yeah, I'm pretty much agreeing with you on this point.@LaoC said:
If it is, the question remains: how is "Muslim culture" a problem? You have pocket communities all over the place—or how far do you think an A-list actor from Beverly Hills or a Wall Street banker is integrated with the way of life and culture of a Detroit worker (there's supposed to be some of them) or a Utah farmer? I don't see many people bemoaning these "parallel societies".So "Muslim culture" is the problem foir what definition of "Muslim"?
It's two separate problems. You're conflating the two.
Muslim culture from disadvantaged areas tends to want to control the government. It's a natural process that's observed throughout history and throughout multiple countries where their population % has become large enough. The Sharia law marches in UK is yet another example. Pocket communities form that don't integrate into secular based democracies. This occurs with influxes of immigration.
The Muslims that immigrate slowly, however, tend to integrate well into secular governments. I'm not sure what causes the difference, and it's something that I think we really need to find out.
This is a separate issue from terrorism.
There is no good plan.
I just see your internment camps for what they are: both naïve and compassionless. They're pretty much the worst possible idea. You could tell everybody to fuck off and die, that would at least be a lot cheaper and quicker. But if you prefer to have the massive human misery and a massive security problem, just round the guys up in camps.There are compassionateless plans, and there are naive plans.
You're pushing everyone into corners of the room because you like to feel morally superior.
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Ok; but you're talking about a situation where 1/50,000th of the people allowed into Europe were interested in doing violence. Statistically, that's zero. So we should change zero policies as a result.
How do you know? They caught one guy after the fact. Of course, you can argue that most of the guys are not first generation. OK, so now we have examples of pretty awful integration (though surely @tufty will vehemently disagree for no particular reason). Let's have more of the same!
There's an argument that it's worth the risk. But that's not the argument that you (or @Lorne_Kates or @tufty) are making. You're saying it's basically beyond the pale even to consider any downsides to letting in refugees. Which says a lot more about you than anyone else.
In the US the number is actual zero, not just statistically zero.
Yes, but they haven't been flowing in here like there.
I didn't call anybody that.
True. Others have. But you are apparently "Overcome by Disgust." At what then?
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@boomzilla said:
You could go read @xaade's post I replied to for a change.[quote="LaoC, post:89, topic:52732"] Hardly comparable to people fleeing from a war zone.
Sure. But we've already got one spectacular instance of people taking advantage of that.
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You could go read @xaade's post I replied to for a change.
I tend to mostly skip over long @xaade posts and their replies. What, in particular, did you have to say on the topic of a terrorist taking advantage of the refugee process?
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How do you know?
I have faith that the vast majority of people are not potential murderers.
I also have no desire to base my decision-making process on paranoia and fear. If I'm generous to a person and they end up shanking me, well, like I said above: shit happens. But no regrets.
Which says a lot more about you than anyone else.
I fucking hope so.
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@LaoC said:
You could go read @xaade's post I replied to for a change.
I tend to mostly skip over long @xaade posts and their replies. What, in particular, did you have to say on the topic of a terrorist taking advantage of the refugee process?
What if you read what I wrote instead of what you think I wanted to write?
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He came through the damn refugee center. I stand by the language.
You seem to think the boats arrive neatly in port, and they have a nice stewardess helping people off the boat and asking "Anything to declare? Business or pleasure?". That's a long way from the truth. Some boats are helped or coerced by the police into landing; people on those will be delivered directly. Most simply dump their "cargo" on isolated beaches or at sea; those people are left to fend for themselves and either picked up by the police as they wander, come in themselves. They have no choice other than to go through the refugee centres because they don't have papers to go onwards or money to feed themselves.Being processed in a refugee centre does not imply having come onto the island as a refugee. Being processed in a refugee centre with fake papers does not imply being any sort of immigrant at all. So stick by your language all you like, but it makes you look like a cock.
A terrorist funded by a rich organisation, and who obviously has enough money to get a good enough fake passport to pass inspection at a centre where people are used to seeing legitimate Syrian passports, does not have to pass through a refugee centre. Rather than using fake Syrian papers, he could use, for example, fake Austrian / German / French papers and simply walk onto a ferry. Or get himself delivered to somewhere less remote. He doesn't need to walk across Europe. Make an asylum demand in Serbia. et processed in Croatia, Austria...
A terrorist normally wants to avoid any contact with immigration controls, police, any kind of "being noticed by the state". It makes no sense at all for a terrorist to deliberately get himself noticed.
@boomzilla said:So what's one more easy way in?
Much harder than the other ways in they already have, and far more likely to get them caught.
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