WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else
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@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Both Photos' (which doesn't have an obvious way to change the format) and Paint 3D's Save As go by default to some bullshit default directory instead of the directory from where I opened the original damn file (via Explorer, of course)! Grr.
Photos and Paint 3D are so crude and primitive that they are mostly useless, so I'm not surprised when behave differently from 99.9% of all the other software in existence. And Microsoft seems to be a bunch of pricks who like to do things for no apparent reason other than fuck you.
The bigger problem with stupid defaults, and its not just Microsoft, is that NOBODY seems to be able to grasp the concept of a source directory (File -> Open) and a destination directory (File ->Save) and allow them to have different defaults:
File Open
Navigate to directory A and select a file
Do stuff
File Save As
Defaults to directory A (last directory used)
Don't want that, navigate to directory B and save file
File Open
Defaults to directory B (last directory used)
Don't want that, navigate back to directory A for the file I want
Do Stuff
File Save As
Defaults to directory A
Have to navigate to directory B and save file....and so on
I seems obvious to me but I guess I'm the only person in the universe who does that.
There's more infuriating variation of this: both save and open always start at the same useless wrong location.
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@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Both Photos' (which doesn't have an obvious way to change the format) and Paint 3D's Save As go by default to some bullshit default directory instead of the directory from where I opened the original damn file (via Explorer, of course)! Grr.
Photos and Paint 3D are so crude and primitive that they are mostly useless, so I'm not surprised when behave differently from 99.9% of all the other software in existence. And Microsoft seems to be a bunch of pricks who like to do things for no apparent reason other than fuck you.
The bigger problem with stupid defaults, and its not just Microsoft, is that NOBODY seems to be able to grasp the concept of a source directory (File -> Open) and a destination directory (File ->Save) and allow them to have different defaults:
File Open
Navigate to directory A and select a file
Do stuff
File Save As
Defaults to directory A (last directory used)
Don't want that, navigate to directory B and save file
File Open
Defaults to directory B (last directory used)
Don't want that, navigate back to directory A for the file I want
Do Stuff
File Save As
Defaults to directory A
Have to navigate to directory B and save file....and so on
I seems obvious to me but I guess I'm the only person in the universe who does that.
I get that, but I think that behavior is still pretty reasonable. You know what's not reasonable? I'm going to praise some Oracle software.
Oracle SqlDeveloper's custom file dialog keeps a list of recent directories in a left-hand pane of the dialog. So even though it has a retarded default (it opens in a
projects
directory inside where it's installed--something like~/bin/sqldeveloper
for me), it's actually pretty easy to work with if you are using the same directories consistently.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I forcibly removed parts of Windows that are protected from even the hidden feature removal tool and now my shit doesn't work
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@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I'm going to praise some Oracle software.
Who are you and what have you done with @boomzilla
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@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Oracle SqlDeveloper's custom file dialog keeps a list of recent directories in a left-hand pane of the dialog.
Whatever you do, do not click these parts of the Windows standard save dialog.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Have you seen the codebase?
There is absolutely no need to see the codebase.
So you're just making shit up based on your gut feeling, and don't actually know anything.
If you believe they are having a bunch of giant
#ifdef
in the code that remove features for IoT by leaving them out during the build process, then you are a total moron.Actually, I meant more like different code branches which have 99% in common but differ in 1%, and this 1% contains this critical piece of code that makes something work on one version but not the other. It happens most often because there is some assumption made that is true in one but not the other, that allows to greatly simplify code in some cases.
Windows 10 Embedded doesn't exist
Whatever. You still know what I meant.
If you bother to open
C:\Windows\servicing\Editions
and check the various XML files there, you will see that it is all the same codebase and the runtime feature configuration is what is different.Wait, your firewall problem was about Windows Embedded all along? It wasn't a desktop/server version you've had the issue with? That changes things.
There is absolutely no reason they couldn't make Defender and other junk optional in the same way.
You don't know that.
But just keep blindly believing everything Microsoft says.
TDEMSYR. It's not some ideological statement. It's not shit talking competition. It's just Microsoft saying what configurations they do and they don't support. You are free to complain that they don't support your scenario - but you can't complain that they suddenly decided to break your install if it was an unsupported scenario right from the start.
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@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I'm going to praise some Oracle software.
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@Zecc said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Oracle SqlDeveloper's custom file dialog keeps a list of recent directories in a left-hand pane of the dialog.
Whatever you do, do not click these parts of the Windows standard save dialog.
That's handy, but less useful than the Oracle version, which has them right there already.
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@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
less useful than the Oracle version
Still at it?! What @boomzilla is this one, that praises Oracle?
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@Zecc said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
less useful than the Oracle version
Still at it?! What @boomzilla is this one, that praises Oracle?
I warned you that I was going to be unreasonable.
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@Zecc said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
less useful than the Oracle version
Still at it?! What @boomzilla is this one, that praises Oracle?
Don't worry, someone at oracle will soon find this nugget of usefulness and remove it.
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@Carnage said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Don't worry, someone at oracle will soon find this nugget of usefulness and
remove itmake it a licenseable feature.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I was only complaining about stupid update process which refuses to apply what it can.
Well done trolling people to defend Windows Update.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
LTSC ... doesn't ship with Microsoft Edge.
I wonder why not.
Filed under: Mumble something something stability
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
So you're just making shit up based on your gut feeling, and don't actually know anything.
You seem to be self-diagnosing here.
Says the guy who claims he understands the entire internal architecture of Windows based on a couple XML files.
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
You don't know that.
But I do know that, because otherwise Windows Defender and any other features wouldn't consist of separate packages with manifests and registry keys.
Or maybe, just maybe, it's an artifact of their build process and no package actually expects the other "separate" package could ever go missing. Especially considering they EXPLICITLY marked those packages as essential and non-uninstallable.
Check for example Microsoft Edge
Why do you think anything about Microsoft Edge - which, in case you don't remember, they were forced by EU to make separate from the rest of Windows - is relevant to Windows Defender? Sure, they might use the same installation model. But it's not enough to assume they work in the exact same way - moreover, not enough to assume the other packages were built with the possibility of Windows Defender being unavailable in mind.
The reason they won't do this in a user-friendly way is because they want to push their own products and make artificial segmentations even if that ends up being user-hostile and anti-competitive behavior.
Conjecture without a shred of evidence. Did you know development manpower is a limited resource?
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
but you can't complain that they suddenly decided to break your install if it was an unsupported scenario right from the start.
Where did I complain about them breaking anything?
When you said "something in the servicing stack changed, and I dont see that as an improvement". That part sounded quite judgemental, and it was about things that used to work not working anymore.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Says the guy who claims he understands the entire internal architecture of Windows based on a couple XML files.
I say it based on much more than that
No matter how much you base it on, unless you've seen the actual internal process for deploying Windows builds, you don't know shit.
but how would you know
That's the thing - I don't and I don't claim I do!
That's some mighty fine compression there... NOT! It's all the same, differences are on the level of single-digit megabytes
Did you browse the assembly to see what these single-digit megabytes of differences contain? No? Then shut up.
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
and no package actually expects the other "separate" package could ever go missing.
It is not other packages that don't expect it (or otherwise they would not be in separate packages with different names to begin with you idiot)
I can't believe someone with so much experience in the industry can say such moronic things. Have you really never seen in your life a situation where some program doesn't work unless some other completely unrelated program isn't installed too, and won't tell you the reason why it fails? Now consider that essential Windows components ARE related and ARE meant to always exist together.
it's stupid Windows Update that can't handle a missing package.
And why would it? They're essential packages. THEY. JUST. DON'T. GO. MISSING.
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Why do you think anything about Microsoft Edge - which, in case you don't remember, they were forced by EU to make separate from the rest of Windows - is relevant to Windows Defender?
So how is Edge "separate from Windows" when you can't uninstall it without using
install_wim_tweak.exe
and if you do that, then you break Windows Update which expect Edge packages you removed to be there, much like it expects Windows Defender packages I removed?Wait, really? But... didn't you just say it's the first time ever you've had this kind of issue? How do you know Edge does it too?
Also - okay, you got me. I didn't expect Microsoft to silently stop respecting EU court sentences. But it doesn't make my point any weaker - quite the opposite; if they so tightly integrate components that they're legally required to keep separate, what do you think happens with components they're not?
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Conjecture without a shred of evidence.
Evidence is there if you want to look.
Also known as wishful thinking.
They added more stuff which is non-removable despite EU ruling and they will keep doing it as long as they can get away with it.
Because it's easier to code. Not because of any monopolistic tendencies.
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Did you know development manpower is a limited resource?
Yes, especially if you value your shareholders, their profit margins, and your executive bonuses more than everything else even to the point of axing the whole QA department, and "outsourcing" the job to your paying customers.
Exactly. So kindly please stop complaining that they cut some corners when separating inseparable packages.
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
That part sounded quite judgemental, and it was about things that used to work not working anymore.
I explained why I think it's not improvement
Did anyone say otherwise? The only reason you could've possibly even mention this thing - other than someone else saying otherwise which we already ruled out - is because you find it annoying enough to write about it.
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I wonder if @levicki also cleans up his System32 directory because there are all those files which are completely unnecessary.
Seriously, though, I dabbled in this: "Only the most optimized system shall survive" by using Gentoo for a while. Until I realized that any perceived gains were massively outweighed by the downsides and switched back to a distribution which doesn't involve this serious level of tinkering and works better due to not being a special snowflake.
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@Rhywden Arch?
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@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I dabbled in this: "Only the most optimized system shall survive" by using Gentoo for a while.
Gentoo? You weren't really trying, otherwise you'd have been running LFS!
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@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I guess I'm the only person in the universe who does that
I ended up just making folder shortcuts to each other.
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
That changes things.
Apparently, it does not.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
You can take
SxSExtract
, tell it to extract those for you and pack them as CAB files which you can install usingDISM /Add-Package
on Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC which doesn't ship with Microsoft Edge. It will work, though I cannot say if it would update it with other stuff.The reason they won't do this in a user-friendly way is because they want to push their own products and make artificial segmentations even if that ends up being user-hostile and anti-competitive behavior.
Hey, can you take whatever package that says "I'm not Home edition so don't let you join a domain" and cab it up for me? I don't use any other Pro feature and it would be nice to save 40 bucks.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Once they add GPO controls to Chr...
GOP objects already exists for Chrome.
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@Tsaukpaetra and for Edge too. I think he meant making the management console accessible through Edge, and only through Edge - but with him, you can never be sure.
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
LFS
Just in case, I mean this: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
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@Zerosquare interestingly, both these projects have the same goals - speed and total control.
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@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I dabbled in this: "Only the most optimized system shall survive" by using Gentoo for a while.
Gentoo? You weren't really trying, otherwise you'd have been running LFS!
Ah, but Gentoo keeps breaking on updates. LFS tends to stay exactly the same. At least back when I fucked around with them.
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@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I seems obvious to me but I guess I'm the only person in the universe who does that.
I rarely use the open dialog like that. Mostly I drag and drop from exploder.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
If you just need to run an application as a domain user (for example SQL Server Management Studio to access a database with domain credentials) you can do this:
runas /netonly /user:mydomain\username "path\file.exe"
I only discovered this relatively recently, exactly for the SSMS scenario (although I've used it for others). It's pretty handy.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
unless you've seen the actual internal process for deploying Windows builds, you don't know shit.
What does "actual internal process for deploying Windows builds" even mean?
The way they compile and bundle Windows builds.
That's the thing - I don't and I don't claim I do!
But you claim that you know more than I do, and I am sure you don't.
I didn't claim that either. You might have more actual knowledge, but most of what you say is still complete bullshit.
Did you browse the assembly to see what these single-digit megabytes of differences contain?
Does it really matter? It's 99.999% the same.
There's no reason why the problematic code that makes Windows go batshit crazy on missing components can't sit in that remaining 0.001%.
Have you really never seen in your life a situation where some program doesn't work unless some other completely unrelated program isn't installed too, and won't tell you the reason why it fails?
Do you consider that a good software development practice?
If the dependency is an optional component, that's very wrong. But if it's a mandatory component and it's an invariant that it's always available, I couldn't care less. It would be like preparing your C program for a situation that stack is not writable.
Now consider that essential Windows components ARE related and ARE meant to always exist together.
90% of Windows NT codebase existed BEFORE Windows Defender was even a thing you idiot.
You don't know that.
And why would it? They're essential packages. THEY. JUST. DON'T. GO. MISSING.
THEN FUCKING FIX IT IF THEY ARE SO ESSENTIAL???
IT'S NOT WINDOWS UPDATE'S JOB TO FIX BRICKED WINDOWS INSTALLS. IT'S THE JOB OF "RESET THIS PC" TO FIX BRICKED WINDOWS INSTALLS, AND YOU CAN BE DAMN SURE IT DOES FUCKING REINSTALL WINDOWS DEFENDER PROPERLY.
Because it's easier to code. Not because of any monopolistic tendencies.
So it's easier to code a Chromium clone when its codebase is part of 300+ GB Windows codebase?
No, the other way around. It's easier to code the 300+ GB Windows codebase when Chromium is part of it. And by Chromium I obviously mean Edge, which is not a 1:1 Chromium clone and is presumably tightly integrated with Windows internals.
Exactly. So kindly please stop complaining that they cut some corners when separating inseparable packages.
Not sure what you mean by inseparable here. Windows Defender can be completely removed.
Your brain can be removed too (if it wasn't already) and the body still kept alive, but I think you'd agree basically everyone considers it an inseparable part of human body, and the assumption that everyone has one is perfectly fine, to the point it can be taken as an axiom.
Here's the thing. You don't decide what's inseparable from Windows. Microsoft decides what's inseparable from Windows. And if you don't follow their rules, you have no right to complain something doesn't work. Just like you have no right to complain your C program behaves wrong after null pointer access, no matter how careful you were in allocating memory at null address and what the wrong behavior is.
Do you know why Windows Explorer won't crash if you right-click on a file after you remove Defender?
Luck, mostly. You can kill thousands of brain neurons before the patient feels anything.
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
You don't decide what's inseparable from Windows.
MicrosoftEU courts decideswhat's inseparable from Windows.FTFAT
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@HardwareGeek if we were to believe @levicki (I know, it's hard at this point), they have zero influence over what's actually getting done.
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@HardwareGeek if we were to believe @levicki (I know, it's hard at this point), they have zero influence over what's actually getting done.
I want to know how Apple gets away with it on iOS.
Fun fact: all the browsers on iOS are reskinned Mobile Safari (unless you jailbreak). They don't allow any other web renderers on their platform - or any app stores.
In fact, they're so paranoid about rival stores, they don't even allow interpreters (something that was very problematic because a product made by my employer had Lua support, and they had to drop it for iOS).
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@error said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I want to know how Apple gets away with it on iOS.
Apple doesn't have a (quasi-)monopoly on smartphones. MS does (did?) on desktop OSes. That's what matters from a legal point of view.
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
You can kill thousands of brain neurons before the patient feels anything.
Please do not bring politics into the Win10 thread.
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@levicki IOW, you removed a system component and it broke.
Tip: Just because it works now doesn't mean it'll work later. That's literally what undefined behavior means. If you depend on volatile system internals prone to breakage, you really don't get the right to complain when they do break.
Oh yeah, and an in-place reinstall (as in, one that replaces system files and does nothing else) would have fixed that, and it's something that you should know to do if removing system files breaks shit. So you're doubly stupid.
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@pie_flavor said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
it's something that you should know to do if removing system files breaks shit.
Nah, he already said he has this little cab thing that can simply reinstall it, no problem!
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@pie_flavor said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Just because it works now doesn't mean it'll work later. That's literally what undefined behavior means.
It's also a pretty good description of Windows 10 in general
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New one today:
Both external monitors worked but the laptop screen was dead to Windows. Also, the broken half start menu thing was going on.
Trying to restart...waiting for the "Restarting" spinner to finish its dance.
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@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Trying to restart...waiting for the "Restarting" spinner to finish its dance.
LOL nope. Power button to the rescue once again.
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@boomzilla I forget if I asked this before, but are you using a Thinkpad with a dock? That kind of thing sounds very familiar.
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Anyway, my Windows 7 VM randomly restarted while I had applications open in it, while I was doing something else on the host system.
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@hungrier said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla I forget if I asked this before, but are you using a Thinkpad with a dock? That kind of thing sounds very familiar.
Dell with a dock.
EDIT: Plus a KVM. I can kind of understand the monitor weirdness but the inability to restart is completely retarded.
EDIT: Also the finicky start menu is a massive .
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@boomzilla I sometimes get weird behaviour with docked monitors, especially when I go into sleep mode and turn it back on. The most common failure mode for me is: with the laptop undocked, everything works perfectly, but as soon as I dock it, the image on the laptop screen freezes, the mouse cursor disappears, and it doesn't respond to any input until I take it back off the dock.
No idea about the start menu, I mostly haven't touched it in months (obligatory Launchy plug)
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@hungrier said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
No idea about the start menu, I mostly haven't touched it in months (obligatory Launchy plug)
Not finding that in work's library of available software. But I assume the start menu thing is a symptom of something much stupider so the reboot (ultimately forced, of course) is probably a good idea aside from that.
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@boomzilla If you're not restricted from installing random open source software off the internet, it's freely available at https://www.launchy.net
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@hungrier I probably could but . And I suspect its a reasonable canary in the Win10 coal mine.
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@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
And I suspect its a reasonable canary in the Win10 coal mine.
Mine is when my Fitbit stops syncing. Invariably, Windows is waiting to reboot because of updates.
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
And I suspect its a reasonable canary in the Win10 coal mine.
Mine is when my Fitbit stops syncing. Invariably, Windows is waiting to reboot because of updates.
Hmm....nope, last updates were 11/18. And usually the spinner mentions something about updates, doesn't it?