How To Demoralize Employees: A DIY Guide for Terrible Companies
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You get around £20k (possibly more now, I did the training in 2010)
No it's about that.
their clients reportedly pay inn the region of £300 a day to the parennt company
A little bit more than that. That general region though.
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Their main selling point is the more or less guaranteed two years of experience, barring not being able to find a placement. (If that happens, either you've already started the two years, you're getting paid to sit around doing nothing much, and if they think they won't find you another they'll probably let you go early. Or else it's right after the training, you're not usually being paid yet, but there's a get-out clause where you can leave without working the two years or paying if they can't find you a placement within such amount of time).
I signed up with them because I had almost no IT background - I studied maths, did a tiny bit of R and Fortran programming (undergraduates learning Fortran in 2010! It's still used in maths) and decided I wanted to go into software. I didn't have the balls to try and blag my way into a programming job off the bat with so little knowledge, so I signed up for the training and what I'm choosing to consider a two-year internship - I get paid more than enough to live on and I'll welcome the experience when I come to start my career for real, so in the grand scheme of things I think I'll have done alright out of the deal.
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You may not be... We've made it pretty obvious between us that we're talking about the same company. Oh well you said it not me
I'll delete it if you want. It did occur to me after I posted it
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Well I did go on to say I thought I was getting a good deal out of it... leave it be. I'm not [i]that[/i] afraid of them. Thanks for the offer.
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I signed up with them because I had almost no IT background - I studied maths, did a tiny bit of R and Fortran programming (undergraduates learning Fortran in 2010! It's still used in maths) and decided I wanted to go into software. I didn't have the balls to try and blag my way into a programming job off the bat with so little knowledge, so I signed up for the training and what I'm choosing to consider a two-year internship - I get paid more than enough to live on and I'll welcome the experience when I come to start my career for real, so in the grand scheme of things I think I'll have done alright out of the deal
My story's pretty similar. Maths degree, no Fortran but a little bit of Matlab. My main programming experience was a little bit of Apple script. I wouldn't be where I am now without them, but I didn't enjoy my time with them
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That seems tragically low, even for a new recruit
It was enough to get by in London, as long as you managed to find a cheap flat.
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The way they phrase it is that the training costs however many thousand, but you have two payment options: pay upfront (which nobody does) or have the fee waived in return for signing a contract saying you'll work as a contractor for them for two years.
Question: If you pay the "training fee" upfront, would that increase your rate of pay? How long does the training take? Are you paid anything for taking the training, or are you expected to do the training while having no income?
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If you pay the "training fee" upfront, would that increase your rate of pay?
The terms of the employment are set out as conditions of the training agreement with the 'work off the debt' option. If you paid upfront you wouldn't be under that system at all - I expect you could persuade them to take you on but I have no idea what the terms would be. Negotiable, probably. You could also just take the certificate of training and leave.How long does the training take?
16 weeks for the developer course. They have other courses - support analyst, project manager, etc, that are shorter.Are you paid anything for taking the training, or are you expected to do the training while having no income?
Generally speaking the training is unpaid. As is any time between the end of the course and the start of your first placement. However recently - I was in the first cohort to get offered this - they've come up with an accelerated scheme that they offer when demand for half-trained graduates who can't quit outstrips supply. If you pass with a high enough grade from the first four-week section, you may get offered the accelerated course: it's squeezed into a couple of weeks less and they pay you a reduced (reduced even from the 'not on placement' rate) salary while it's ongoing, subject to continuing to make the grades.
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I have no idea what the terms would be. Negotiable, probably
Similar to year 3, probably. Most people who stayed on used to get about £35k in my day, depending on their negotiation skills.
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Around $32K/year in USD? That seems tragically low, even for a new recruit. $16/hour roughly. Ouch.
Realize the more secure job position in Europe also naturally translates to lower wages.
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Realize the more secure job position in Europe also naturally translates to lower wages.
Really? In what regards? That seems ass backwards to me, but perhaps I am missing something elementary?
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That seems ass backwards to me
No, it makes sense, and often happens here, too. It's a pretty standard risk tradeoff. Accepting more risk (less job security) is more lucrative, but maybe not for long.
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I was thinking more broad-scope. Yes, with contractors though I get it.
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In what regards?
25 (typically) paid vacation days per year. Impossible to be fired without judge approval once you have a permanent contract (typically after 1yr or 2*1yr contract). Probably a couple other details I'm forgetting offhand.
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Impossible to be fired without judge approval once you have a permanent contract
Really? Here in the US you can put stipulations in the contract about performance, ethics, employee guidelines, etc. and can still dismiss for cause while the contact is valid. Is this not the case across the pond?
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Fixed-term contracts are a thing, but at a 1yr maximum duration and up to 3 subsequent contracts, after which they are expected to offer a permanent contract if there is no cause not to.
You can be fired for misconduct, even on-the-spot for gross misconduct, though that may still have to be confirmed by the judge afterwards. And they can fire people for downsizing, which I think is after judge approval but not sure.
What they cannot do is give you a two weeks notice because the new manager doesn't like your face.
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And they can fire people for downsizing
I'm no expert in this area, but doesn't there need to be some sort of redundancy payout in the downsizing case?
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Really? Here in the US you can
put stipulations in the contract about performance, ethics, employee guidelines, etc. and can stilldismiss forcause while the contact is validpretty much any reason as long as it's not a protected class. Is this not the case across the pond?FTFY.
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Fair enough. Can't do that either here if you are under contract. It is more frequent to just pay out the contract and tell them to consider it severance. Hell, my wife is in HR and even when it is due to employee negligence, if that employee is likely to sue, they will just go to them and say, "It will cost us X to fight this in court, and we will win. We will pay you .75X in order to make you fuck off."
Moral of the story, being a litigious asshole apparently always pays.
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FTFY.
Not if the employee is under contract. Not legally anyway. Most people don't know their rights though, so you can almost always get away with it anyway.
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Not if the employee is under contract.
Contractors usually have an escape clause where they can can you if they have to by paying the contracting agency a fee. Employees tend to not have contracts that specify duration.
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Employees tend to not have contracts that specify duration.
A contract without a duration is not much of a contract. At least not the way I think of one. In that case it would just be a release of liability and IP, etc.
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a release of liability and IP, etc.
And this crap:
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I'm no expert in this area, but doesn't there need to be some sort of redundancy payout in the downsizing case?
Severance payment and assistance in finding a new job (in or outside the company) may be required based on the position of the parent company. IANAL, I'd have to look it up.
You also initially go into WW (WerkloosheidsWet, lit. unemployment law) for a period depending on how long you were employed, which pays 70% of your last salary, before you drop to the normal 'Bijstand' level people like unemployed single mothers have to support themselves with.
If, inside or outside work environments, you get injured to the point where you can no longer perform your job you may be eligible for support under WAO (Wet ArbeidsOngeschiktheid, law unfit for labour).
"It will cost us X to fight this in court, and we will win. We will pay you .75X in order to make you fuck off."
Firing of a specific individual may be settled out of court - if both parties agree it's not a one-sided firing anymore.
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I am glad I never had to deal with such shit. Once or twice back in the day I was given a contract that I had to have my lawyer make changes to. For the most part though, it was pretty standard stuff.
Fun fact, in our state at least, unless you are an employee with an actual contract (with defined start and end dates), most of the clauses in that article would be null and void. Of course, that does not mean that if they wanted to be asses about it they could not drag you in to court and cause expenses for you. But ultimately they would be null and void.
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Great. Another random YouTube video added to my history courtesy of here.
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Great. Another random YouTube video added to my history courtesy of here.
Don't you hate it when you click on something stupid before you realize that because of that one click you are now going to be served videos related to that, that you have absolutely no interest in, for the next three months?
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ure welkome :3
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Yeah - luckily you can remove things from YouTube history and it fixes that.
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Sweet, now I can take this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbJenAiKMQg
...out of my feed before my wife sees it.
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And I can add it to mine.
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Now, I just need a way to block all the Buzzfeed crap that is always suggested. Is there an easy way to tell a channel to fuck off? I know I can do so to individual suggested videos, but that does not help for channels?
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Is there an easy way to tell a channel to fuck off?
I haven't found one. I've not really looked either.
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Just check here! I hear that minute #6 is when it lets you know.
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How long before the OP comes in and lambastes us again for polluting his thread?
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This post is deleted!
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Severance payment and assistance
Hell, my wife is in HR and even when it is due to employee negligence, if that employee is likely to sue, they will just go to them and say, "It will cost us X to fight this in court, and we will win. We will pay you .75X in order to make you fuck off."
Moral of the story, being a litigious asshole apparently always pays.
On the reverse side of the coin (thank @Polygeekery and @Luhmann for discussing some of this in another thread:
@Polygeekery said:US court cases have consistently upheld that you have a very limited right to privacy at work.
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I know of one business owner IIRC who initially put in cameras in his manufacturing shop for some other reason I can't remember now than what I'm about to share. While fixing the computer that manages his camera setup, he told me of a recent(1) story involving a problem employee. One morning he came in claiming he was injured (mangled hand) working on the machines a few minutes after starting work. He was claiming he needed workman's comp, going to sue, etc. The owner got his full statement, brought in the local police to document his statement, then pulled up the video for the employee and the police to watch together. It showed that he came in with the injured hand, clocked in, walked over to said machinery where he sat next to it for maybe five minutes doing nothing, then headed into the office to make his claim.When the employee was asked if he still wanted to stick to his story, the employee recanted.
Then the owner fired him, in front of the cop.
EDITS:
No severance or unemployment is going to that former employee.Footnote:
(1)Recent for the time, which IIRC was fall of 2003.
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When the employee was asked if he still wanted to stick to his story, the employee recanted.
Just another type of theft that cameras can protect you from. ;-)
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My termination terms included that I wasn't allowed to say anything bad about them
That's probably unenforceable in the U.S.
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Probably in the UK too
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This demoralized me.
My Manager forwarded me an email with no added text, which was a forward from his Director with no added text which was a forward from his SVP with a bunch of bullshit about developing a staffing plan for an account added to a forward from another VP about a complaint he got about an account with which I have no context or relationship having too little staffing (wherein 'too little' is defined as 'the customer said they wanted more, even though the existing resources mostly sit idle waiting for changes')
The VP had written it in blue comic sans.
What the fuck am I supposed to do with that? I have absolutey fuckall to do with staffing, nevermind in a completely different division on an account that I have never heard of that isn't even for a client in my target markets.
My only realistic supposition is that the powers that be are going to try to crowbar this work into my platform wherein NO accounts have dedicated staffing by design, which is the opposite of the alleged solution to the alleged problem.
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The VP wrote what is in bold, or that is your complaint to the VP's comment about too little staffing?
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Oh, so you guys have that welfare problem, too?
Apparently so. The really big distortions seem to be happening in accommodation prices, which are stratospheric in The Big Smoke. It also appears to be politically impossible to even conceive of thinking about doing something about it, perhaps because that would make some very rich people and almost all MPs lose quite a lot of money. Things are going to get worse because nobody with the power to fix things has the desire to do so.
I'm happy to be well out of it. We get some blow-back, but we're nothing like as extreme.
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A contract without a duration is not much of a contract.
A contract is just a formalised agreement. There is no general requirement for an agreement to be limited in temporal scope. (“Permanent” is probably a slight overstatement. “Until the normal age of retirement” would be more like it.)
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The bold is my complaint. I blame the drink.
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So my new company has a million dollar view over one of the nicest parts of the Pacific coastline. I get paid a ton, do what I love to do, get to collaborate with people like me, get to improve what I work on, I get snacks and drinks paid for, I have 3 huge monitors, get lunch reimbursed if it's 2 or more employees, it's a laid back atmosphere, and it's upstairs from a bar.
How's everyone else doing?
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Having a relaxing start to the week. There was big maintenance on the server complexes this weekend and now half of everything is down.