How DEFINITELY not to CV
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How about you ignore the mail and be a survivor?
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@Lorne_Kates said:
After thinking about this-- we've all been talking about how you could warn the companies and close the security holes.
How about a different approach? Have you thought about, perhaps, exploiting the security breach, taking over the electric grid and become a super villain? If you get lots of monies, give me some.
I can order a bunch of movies, then turn off the power to everyone but me. Those poor suckers can shiver in their dark hovels underneath my lit mansion, as I'm having a movie marathon and cackling in glee.
How about you ignore the mail and be a survivor?
Finally someone talking some sense here.
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I can order a bunch of movies, then turn off the power to everyone but me. Those poor suckers can shiver in their dark hovels underneath my lit mansion, as I'm having a movie marathon and cackling in glee.
Or you can be really sadistic and show them a Glee marathon.
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You do realise that if you send the CV back to the affected companies, they will not only see their own security breaches, but also the breaches of the other companies? Do you want a bank in control of your power supply?
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Do you want a bank in control of your power supply?
I dunno, seems like they could do less damage with that than what they've done with the money supply over the last decade or so! ;)
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You forgot to say "fuck you".
Taking over the power grid gives lots of opportunity to do that.
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You could send it back to the affected companies with the other companies' details removed, e.g. don't send the power company the bank details.
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@prueg said:
Do you want a bank in control of your power supply?
I dunno, seems like they could do less damage with that than what they've done with the money supply over the last decade or so! ;)Honestly, I'd be more concerned with the power company controlling the bank.
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Helped on an interview today.
The candidate brought some printouts of database diagrams he'd worked on. Cool.
Then he said "Did you want to see my portfolio?"
Took out his laptop.
Loaded Visual Studio.
Showed us the source code of the software he's working on right now. At the company he's working for.
I-- I think there might have been an NDA against that. =|
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Showed us the source code of the software he's working on right now. At the company he's working for.
Convincing them that the code they worked on while full-time employed actually belongs to the company is almost as hard as convincing the rank and file that "no, that's not your computer on your desk, it's the company's computer".
I'm putting my clue-bat supplier's kids through college given how many of those I wear out.
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"Hey, I'm happy to spread my employer's IP around. Please, hire me to create IP for you!"
Would you rather they show you stuff "live" in the interview, or just give you a GitHub link in the CV to review at your leisure (if you care)?
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"Hey, I'm happy to spread my employer's IP around. Please, hire me to create IP for you!"
Would you rather they show you stuff "live" in the interview, or just give you a GitHub link in the CV to review at your leisure (if you care)?
If it's some B2C website that's publicly accessible, sure, that's fine. Though I've never had anyone bring a live portfolio to an interview before.
If it's their own GitHub (or for an open source project), that's fine too. Though I've only ever had one person send a GitHub, and when I looked through it, it was someone else's project. The CV owner's only contribution was making two spelling corrections in comments.
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My github only have code I wrote when I was a child, one-line contributions or things I clicked on fork for some random reason.
I would never put that on my CV.
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My github only have code I wrote when I was a child, one-line contributions or things I clicked on fork for some random reason.
I would never put that on my CV.
This guy put it on his CV explicitly because he wanted to showcase the work he did with Open Source, as in improvement to his skills.
Maybe he never thought anyone would actually LOOK at his profile and see his commits?
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Worst case he was bullshitting you like you say.
Best case some recruiter may have asked to put his github URL on it?In a related WTF, I had an employer dictate a bullshit for me to put on my CV, as the customer was asking for the CV of people working on their project. I felt a bit dirty, and didn't use that version of it anywhere else.
I would give him the benefit of the doubt, but then, I don't interview people.
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In a related WTF, I had an employer dictate a bullshit for me to put on my CV, as the customer was asking for the CV of people working on their project. I felt a bit dirty, and didn't use that version of it anywhere else.
What the stupid butt-dicking shit kind of employer and/or customer asks for OR provides that information?!?
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Showed us the source code of the software he's working on right now. At the company he's working for.
Could be fine, depends on the company and type of project he's working on. Especially since the code never left his laptop.
99% of code is worthless anyway (1% are the actual algorithms buried deep inside systems). That's why OSS is becoming so prevalent. Only the customers and brands attached to software products have value.
@Lorne_Kates said:
If it's their own GitHub (or for an open source project), that's fine too. Though I've only ever had one person send a GitHub, and when I looked through it, it was someone else's project. The CV owner's only contribution was making two spelling corrections in comments.
Did I mention the time where we asked for a GitHub account among "good-to-haves", and the guy opened a new empty GitHub account and sent that in?
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You'd ask for GitHub accounts? I find that confusing for anything other than very entry level jobs aimed at graduates where there is no work history.
Otherwise, if as an experienced professional you have the time and inclination to be on GitHub a lot I'd seriously question work/ life balance and priorities.
Aside from that the weirdness of asking to scrutinise someone's hobby. At least in the places I worked no code would have ever been pushed to git.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
What the stupid butt-dicking shit kind of employer and/or customer asks for OR provides that information?!?
It was a small contracting company, totally dependent on the biggest ISP in the country. They would do any shit they asked.
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Otherwise, if as an experienced professional you have the time and inclination to be on GitHub a lot I'd seriously question work/ life balance and priorities.
^This. My GitHub profile is extremely boring (bug reports plus a few pull requests). I simply don't have the time and motivation to actually finish a side project. Fortunately, I've never been asked to bring existing code to an interview. I simply haven't had a side project in a while. And If I bring code I wrote more than 5 years ago, it's going to be shitty code, so I won't do that either.
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You'd ask for GitHub accounts? I find that confusing for anything other than very entry level jobs aimed at graduates where there is no work history.
Otherwise, if as an experienced professional you have the time and inclination to be on GitHub a lot I'd seriously question work/ life balance and priorities.
That was for the intern job half a year ago, or so.
In the latest job add, we added basically a "proof of code" bullet point, and stated github as one of the preferred sources.
And no, sorry, even if you're a senior dev, I need to see some code for the interview. Unless you have hours and hours to spend on bullshit projects for each employer you're interviewing with, having a little repo somewhere with some representative code is a huge advantage.
As for the work-life balance, that's good to have for you personally, but why would the company care about that? It's rough to hear, but people who spend their free time thinking about code and working on private projects will likely be better coders than people with good work-life balance. Which makes "show me your hobby projects" a valid question to ask when trying to find good coders.
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As for the work-life balance, that's good to have for you personally, but why would the company care about that? It's rough to hear, but people who spend their free time thinking about code and working on private projects will likely be better coders than people with good work-life balance.
Bullshit. They'll be more likely to be opinionated fuckwads who don't work well in a team, and far more likely to burn out or storm off.If you want good employees, you want balanced human beings, not fucking robots. You know what you get when you employ people with no life?
Jeff Atwood. Robin Ward. Sam Saffron.
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If you want good employees, you want balanced human beings, not fucking robots. You know what you get when you employ people with no life?
Jeff Atwood. Robin Ward. Sam Saffron.
Whatever you thought about their product or personality or technology choices, they CAN code.
Who knows what some anonymous dude with a bunch of anonymous internal apps on resume can actually do. Did they actually develop these themselves? Or was every feature a torture, with the rest of the company having to jump in and fix their messes?
I certainly don't. Because I can't see their code.
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Sam Saffron
I assume that's a different Sam to the @sam who bent over backwards trying to fix the performance issues we kept exposing…
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@tufty said:
Sam Saffron
I assume that's a different Sam to the @sam who bent over backwardstryfailing to fix the performance issueswe kept exposinghe'd been instrumental in creating…
How did it go again? "Time for you to migrate off Discourse", I think it was.
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How did it go again? "Time for you to migrate off Discourse", I think it was.
You do know @sam had fuck all to do with that, right? That was all Jeff losing his shit like the fucking petulant baby he is.
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@tufty said:
How did it go again? "Time for you to migrate off Discourse", I think it was.
You do know @sam had fuck all to do with that, right? That was all Jeff losing his shit like the fucking petulant baby he is.
You realise the source of that quote is literally a single click away from your reply?
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I know exactly where that quote is. And I know exactly why it's there. But hey, if you don't want to believe someone who has actually interacted with both Sam and Jeff on multiple occasions, then fuck you too.
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The thread you're looking for is this way
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It's really fucking simple, and @abarker among others will confirm this.
- Jeff threw a hissy fit and banned almost all TDWTF members from meta.d
- WTDWTF would therefore get zero support
- Sam banned himself from this forum, leaving advice that we should find a platform where we would get support
But by all means don't let the truth get in the way of your hate-fuelled narrative.
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But by all means don't let the truth get in the way of your hate-fuelled narrative.
That seems to be the motto of this forum lately. Are we still counting flamewars, BTW? Can't find that topic anymore.
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Hate fuelled narrative? Hardly.
Yes, @sam spent time trying to fix the problems we were having. Problems we are largely still having, problems that are caused by code he was and is responsible for writing and/or having written.
The fact he spent time trying in vain to fix those problems does not absolve him of responsibility for having caused those problems in the first place. If nothing else, because at no point did he ever come clean and accept that there were and are massive and endemic structural issues with the design of his company's product. Mostly it was because we were
and that was thatI honestly used to think he was less of a twat than Jeff. Having seen his attitude on meta.d these days, I'm not so sure.
None of which means anything with respect to the original point, which was that somehow having a github repo shows that you can code. If someone pointed me at the discourse codebase as an example of their coding prowess, regardless of the innumerable bugs in it, I'd show them the door. It's opaque to the point of insanity, utterly incapable of being supported.
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Bullshit. They'll be more likely to be opinionated fuckwads who don't work well in a team, and far more likely to burn out or storm off.
If you want good employees, you want balanced human beings, not fucking robots. You know what you get when you employ people with no life?
Jeff Atwood. Robin Ward. Sam Saffron.
This is the most judgmental and bigoted thing I've seen posted here in a long time.
Some of us have more than enough time to pursue a hobby and still otherwise have a life. I choose to spend mine playing and studying chess, but I'm not going to look down on someone who would rather write code.
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It's really fucking simple, and @abarker among others will confirm this.
Huh? What? Did somebody call on me?
1. Jeff threw a hissy fit and banned almost all TDWTF members from meta.d
- WTDWTF would therefore get zero support
- Sam banned himself from this forum, leaving advice that we should find a platform where we would get support
Oh, um yes. As far as I am aware, that is an accurate representation of the relevant sequence of events. Though #3 also includes Jeff changing his username here to @end.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
@fbmac said:
In a related WTF, I had an employer dictate a bullshit for me to put on my CV, as the customer was asking for the CV of people working on their project. I felt a bit dirty, and didn't use that version of it anywhere else.
What the stupid butt-dicking shit kind of employer and/or customer asks for OR provides that information?!?Very common in government contracting, for one. Not the "dictating" part, but including resumes with proposals or even brining different people onto an existing contract.
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In the latest job add,
I'm only saying this because I love you and because it's a recurring thing for you (but mostly the recurring thing). "Add" is the arithmetic operation. "Ad" is short for "advertisement," like the sort of thing where you're looking for candidates for employment or want to say something without @flabdablet ever getting the message.
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How did it go again? "Time for you to migrate off Discourse", I think it was.
@sam was just the messenger, AFAIK.
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@tufty said:
How did it go again? "Time for you to migrate off Discourse", I think it was.
@sam was just the messenger, AFAIK.
Thank you @boomzilla; good to know I'm not going mad.
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@boomzilla said:
@tufty said:
How did it go again? "Time for you to migrate off Discourse", I think it was.
@sam was just the messenger, AFAIK.
Thank you @boomzilla; good to know I'm not going mad.
So he's less of a jerk than Jeff Atwood. That's not a very high bar.
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So he's less of a jerk than Jeff Atwood. That's not a very high bar.
Yes. :alsoyes.pch:
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I'm only saying this because I love you and because it's a recurring thing for you (but mostly the recurring thing). "Add" is the arithmetic operation. "Ad" is short for "advertisement," like the sort of thing where you're looking for candidates for employment or want to say something without @flabdablet ever getting the message.
Yeah, I know the difference. I don't know why I keep screwing this up. I guess spell check doesn't correct me, and it looks right on the first glance.
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Using it as a sample repo is not a bad idea, I've just rarely seen that happen.
It might be different where you are, but I've gotten CVs complete with a page on hobbies and links to social media accounts and pet/ open source/ hobby projects - unsolicited. I might be too old school or something, as I really discourage people to send me unsorted, semi-relevant chaos.
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Did I mention the time where we asked for a GitHub account among "good-to-haves", and the guy opened a new empty GitHub account and sent that in?
That's what you asked for. Why are you bitching?
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Could be fine, depends on the company and type of project he's working on
"Could be" being the operative word. It was for a financial trading company, so that could have been very, very, VERY bad.
And how did the applicant know it was okay to show? Is he aware of everything in the codebase that is proprietary? Is he certain that he's not showing off something that would be of interest to a rival? Are WE a rival company?
The answer is either "no" because he has the knowledge to make those determination-- and as such should have the knowledge to NOT show off source code. Or the answer is "yes", and he's too stupid (or careless) to know not to show it off.
Not to mention that every byte of code he writes for his employer is probably covered by an NDA, which means even the most basic of getter/setters are company IP and should not be shown off.
And then you have to ask yourself-- if he's willing to be this loose with his current employer's code, then what will he do with ours?
Did I mention the time where we asked for a GitHub account among "good-to-haves", and the guy opened a new empty GitHub account and sent that in?
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It's rough to hear, but people who spend their free time thinking about code and working on private projects will likely be better coders than people with good work-life balance.
Not fucking true.
Or, if it is, I certainly ain't gonna take it on faith. You back that shit up with some data.
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Whatever you thought about their product or personality or technology choices, they CAN code.
No they can't. We're all staring at proof of that.
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I assume that's a different Sam to the @sam who bent over backwards trying to fix the performance issues we kept exposing…
He fucking signs his name to this shit, he's as responsible as anybody else who does so.
Anyway, we know for sure he's the "genius" who decided to solve the problem of read markers by simply deleting user data with no notice or consent. That didn't come from Atwood. And it alone counters like 50 examples of "bending over backwards".
You. Do. Not. Delete. Your. User's. Data. Without. Their. Consent.
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It might be different where you are, but I've gotten CVs complete with a page on hobbies and links to social media accounts and pet/ open source/ hobby projects - unsolicited. I might be too old school or something, as I really discourage people to send me unsorted, semi-relevant chaos.
Social networks and hobbies - agreed. Who cares about that crap.
But their own source code is super useful to figure out what kind of programmer they are. You should use it.
@Lorne_Kates said:
"Could be" being the operative word. It was for a financial trading company, so that could have been very, very, VERY bad.
And how did the applicant know it was okay to show? Is he aware of everything in the codebase that is proprietary? Is he certain that he's not showing off something that would be of interest to a rival? Are WE a rival company?
The answer is either "no" because he has the knowledge to make those determination-- and as such should have the knowledge to NOT show off source code. Or the answer is "yes", and he's too stupid (or careless) to know not to show it off.
Not to mention that every byte of code he writes for his employer is probably covered by an NDA, which means even the most basic of getter/setters are company IP and should not be shown off.
And then you have to ask yourself-- if he's willing to be this loose with his current employer's code, then what will he do with ours?
True. Also, you should carefully read licence agreements before you click OK.
Of course, in practice, no one cares about that crap. Especially in a small business world in which I operate.
I guess I'd think twice if I dealt with enterprises.
Not fucking true.
Or, if it is, I certainly ain't gonna take it on faith. You back that shit up with some data.
Cartman82: People who study all the time get better grades than slackers
Blakeyrat: NO! NOT TRUE! WHERE ARE THE RESEARCH PAPERS!? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE!?? I REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT!!!No they can't. We're all staring at proof of that.
Even if I agreed that Discourse is a total failure (which it obviously isn't), making a stinker of a project doesn't make you a bad programmer. In the same way as fumbling one catch doesn't make you a bad football player.
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Cartman82: People who study all the time get better grades than slackers
We're not talking about being graded based on memorization, we're talking about being a good software developer.
The main thing a good software developer is, in my mind, is well-rounded. Anybody who spends all their time hanging around with other programmers is almost certainly not that.
Blakeyrat: NO! NOT TRUE! WHERE ARE THE RESEARCH PAPERS!? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE!?? I REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT!!!
Also true. You wouldn't believe the sheer quantity of bullshit that's in the "common knowledge".
making a stinker of a project doesn't make you a bad programmer. In the same way as fumbling one catch doesn't make you a bad football player.
What if you've been fumbling every catch for 3 years? You think the Seahawks would still have you on the payroll?
