The Fattening
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>A fat-shamer is on Reddit, spouting anti-fat sentiment; it is Reddit's right to demand he vacate Reddit's property.
That is basically what Reddit is doing. These fat-shamers are on Reddit's lawn, and Reddit is telling them to fuck off, as is their right.
Yes, they have the right to censor what's on their site.
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@xaade said:
Yes, Reddit has the right to censor.
Yet you keep saying they shouldn't, because raisins.So now can == should?
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Because banning the communities is, in fact, itself an act of speech. Saying "we don't accept this here"
Yes, but more importantly, your right to free speech is not the same as an obligation for others to provide a forum to you.
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And again we're back to you wanting to strip Reddit of their rights
What are you reading? Are you just trolling the hell out of @xaade or are you serious?
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I said that "letting individuals choose" is what leads to the tragedy of the commons. I did not say that this particular incident actually is such a tragedy.
It's an example, to counter your overly broad argument to show that "pure freedom" isn't always such a great idea.
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overly broad argument to show that "pure freedom" isn't always such a great idea.
Didn't mean to make that argument then, sorry.
I'm certainly not anarchist.
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And I think this is the reason there's a controversy.
Pro-internet people have always been about freedom of information.
And now there's a lot of "you hurt my feelings, banned" censorship.They are concerned that this will lead to a scenario where people can construe, abuse, manipulate, or actually lie (by sock puppet) open discussion as harassment to get content banned.
It is a legitimate concern.
And then Reddit goes and bans "Whale Watching" as a broad stroke, because they are now so sensitive that they aren't spending time to read and discern wisely.
Exactly the concern that was brought up.
So the concern is now justified.
Any subreddit that's deemed offensive can now be attacked by making harassment claims, moving harassing conversations there, or even faking harassment.
This is counter cultural to the freedom of information culture of the internet. So we are GOING to see these two cultures clash in the future, and they already have in the form of GamerGate and anti-GamerGate.
Someone poses as a member of GamerGate and attacks one of the female journalists with threats, and then the anti-gg crowd uses that to paint the whole of gg as sexist.
Only now it's not just labels, it's outright censorship at stake here.
Of course people could move to another forum to voice their opinions, but which social outlet hasn't used censorship as a broad brush.
So, while the argument is slippery slope, and can't be used to justify some legal action to prevent it, it is a legitimate concern.
That's all I'm saying.
I'm not saying that fat shamers are speaking maturely.
I'm saying that broad stroke censorship is an immature reaction.
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You could have an extra sensitive group come in that wants sensodyne for the forum, and files complaints against anything not fitting their world view.
onoes! or you could have a sensitive group come in that can't believe that no one else is willing to readily display their special brand of stupidity and files complaints against the site not fitting their world view.
oh wait, that's you.
it's a privately run forum, they can sensor whatever they want.
A person has freedom of speech up until another person's right not to listen. (Right to swing their arm stops at my nose).
Maybe you should learn what the constitutional right to freedom of speech actually means.
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If you don't see censorship as a bad thing, well, then, ok.... whatever.
Reddit exercising their right to free speech isn't censorship
Naw, the people running Reddit don't have rights. They have to run their site the way the Internet wants it.
Don't have the energy left to process how banning communities = exercising free speech.
Simply put, the internet should do what Xaade wants, THAT is what freedom of speech means.
Governments, private organizations and individuals may engage in censorship
your own post contradicts your point...
are you really that daft?
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onoes! or you could have a sensitive group come in that can't believe that no one else is willing to readily display their special brand of stupidity and files complaints against the site not fitting their world view.
Then we need to stop complaining about stuff getting jeffed.
Maybe you should learn what the constitutional right to freedom of speech actually means.
I can speak freely in public.
I can't stalk someone around and force them to listen to my harassment.Simply put, the internet should do what Xaade wants, THAT is what freedom of speech means.
Sigh. I suppose I can't ever complain about bad service at a restaurant either.
your own post contradicts your point...are you really that daft?
No it doesn't.
Censorship is defined based on actions taken, not rights.
Free speech is defined based on a right.You can have a right to censor.
But people also have a right to complain about being censored.
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Then you moved the
into a parallel universe where the constitution header reads "here's what xaade wants:"
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This is kind of hilarious after all the pissing and moaning about "SJW"s from xaade in the other topics, and it turns out he IS one.
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I'm an SJW for saying I don't like censorship on the internet?
You know what, I give up.
I just give up.
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Then we need to stop complaining about stuff getting jeffed.
ORLY? Jeff was less a part of our forum than we are, we can complain about being jeffed here.
We can complain about getting jeffed at meta.d, but there's no "right" to not having our stuff jeffed there because it's his forum.
Again, your argument is just so stupid....
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I can speak freely in public.I can't stalk someone around and force them to listen to my harassment
wrong. god damn so wrong. it's like the 5 year old's interpretation.
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but there's no "right" to not having our stuff jeffed there because it's his forum.
I never fucking said there is.
I never fucking said we had a right....
I said censorship is always fucking immature.
Fuck you. I'm done.
Fucking bullshit.
You always twist my fucking words.
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seriously though, we complain here about stuff getting jeffed, because here we can say what we want because we run the place. if we complained there, jeff would jeff it more, which would make perfect sense because he wouldn't want that trash on his site....
i really fail to see what your argument is other than that what you want is what the internet should make happen.
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I said censorship is always fucking immature.
soo.... posting fat-shaming/ridiculing threads should be allowed, but deleting it is "immature".....
THAT's what you're going to go with?
This keeps getting better, please don't stop arguing :(
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So what's TDWTF's opinion on deleting comments by those who ridicule us front-page article writers?
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This is kind of hilarious after all the pissing and moaning about "SJW"s from xaade in the other topics, and it turns out he IS one.
Your aggressive illiteracy isn't @xaade's fault. You misinterpreted "may" where they were saying that things those entities do are all censorship. Not that there was some Constitutional Censorship Clause.
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@xaade said:
I said censorship is always fucking immature.
soo.... posting fat-shaming/ridiculing threads should be allowed, but deleting it is "immature".....
THAT's what you're going to go with?
This keeps getting better, please don't stop arguing :(
Good job @blakeymatter
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So what's TDWTF's opinion on deleting comments by those who ridicule us front-page article writers?
I speak only for myself when I click the Like button on their posts.
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Your aggressive illiteracy isn't @xaade's fault. You misinterpreted "may" where they were saying that things those entities do are all censorship. Not that there was some Constitutional Censorship Clause.
Your aggressive illiteracy isn't my fault. I called him an SJW for nothing related to the constitutional interpretation of free speech, but his argument that Reddit should leave those topics alone because it's the fair and just thing to do. He seeks Social Justice for those doofuses that aren't being allowed to ridicule fat people on Reddit.
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@darkmatter said:
@xaade said:
I said censorship is always fucking immature.
soo.... posting fat-shaming/ridiculing threads should be allowed, but deleting it is "immature".....
THAT's what you're going to go with?
This keeps getting better, please don't stop arguing :(
Good job @blakeymatterMaybe one of us shouldn't be arguing that fat-shaming threads shouldn't be deleted from random privately owned sites and that deleting them is immature? That is, if they don't want that to be the interpretation of their argument.
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ORLY? Jeff was less a part of our forum than we are, we can complain about being jeffed here.
:wat.mp3:
It seems to me that we have exactly as much right to complain about being jeffed here as we do to complain about censorship on reddit.
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It seems to me that we have exactly as much right to complain about being jeffed here as we do to complain about censorship on reddit.
I didn't say he couldn't complain here.
But complaining about something stupid still makes you sound stupid. And the troll in me can't resist the horribly low hanging fruit that is his current argument
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Your aggressive illiteracy isn't my fault.
Oh, sorry, I guess I was still stuck your earlier post.
He seeks Social Justice for those doofuses that aren't being allowed to ridicule fat people on Reddit.
Reddit privilege is a new form of social justice, but thanks for supporting my claim that SJ can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean.
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Maybe one of us shouldn't be putting our hands down the pants of random people on the train.
Maybe both of us should stop misinterpreting things for trolling and profit.
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supporting my claim that SJ can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean.
that is essentially the exact thing I said twice in the other topic about this, so yes.
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I didn't say he couldn't complain here.
I know, I read what you posted:
we can complain about being jeffed here
Similarly, he can complain about censorship on reddit. And each complaint would be equally stupid or non-stupid. It's really the same situation is my point.
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yes, occasionally the complaints here about being jeffed on meta.d are stupid too, especially when the meta.d post was clearly just trolling and not constructive at all (see, tower of burns). I've been jeffed there and laughed about it here, but rarely really complain about it because I know i'm posting only barely constructive criticisms on meta.d
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Maybe one of us shouldn't be arguing that fat-shaming threads shouldn't be deleted from random privately owned sites and that deleting them is immature? That is, if they don't want that to be the interpretation of their argument.
@xaade's argument in a nutshell: Fat-shaming is immature. Responding to it by deleting the subreddit is responding to an immature act with more immaturity!
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@sloosecannon said:
Because banning the communities is, in fact, itself an act of speech. Saying "we don't accept this here"
Yes, but more importantly, your right to free speech is not the same as an obligation for others to provide a forum to you.
QFT
Also, oblig. XKCD, possible
Especially the title text...
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So what's TDWTF's opinion on deleting comments by those who ridicule us front-page article writers?
You angling for promotion to TL4 or mod?
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A writers' forum wouldn't be that bad of an idea, I think, though many writers aren't active members here
I wouldn't give us TL4 though. I like flamewars too much, and it's like having a loaded gun during a boxing match.
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I was just trolling. Unless it's spam, deleting comments here is retarded. Even ones ridiculing me.
A writers' forum wouldn't be that bad of an idea, I think, though many writers aren't active members here
I like the idea, could be useful if we decided to do more collaborative projects. Or it might be empty, like I presume the staff forum is.
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deleting comments here is retarded
Have you heard of /t/1000? deleting comments in there is treason.
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Has anyone pointed out that one does not have a right to free speech of any kind in a privately-run. moderated forum? Just curious.
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I have the right to free speech. Just not the right to force people to listen to me.
I also have the right to Discourse. The left isn't being used right now.
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He seeks Social Justice for those doofuses that aren't being allowed to ridicule fat people on Reddit
No, I seek out a world where the healthy choice of ignoring content that you can avoid merely by not opening a topic, is the default action.
If we start censoring content where it may offend someone, eventually we're going to start putting "trigger warnings" on books, and creating safe zones....
It's different when someone walks up to you and calls you "fatty" every day of your life. That's harassment.
But those people in the corner of the room that are whispering such that you can't hear unless you stand on top of them, haven't done anything wrong, even if they are holding up a sign that says, "We fat shame".
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I didn't say he couldn't complain here.
People are starting to move from internet as a utility, to YouTube as a utility.
They're saying that predominate providers of privately owned public available content, are public. In other words, YouTube owes it to society to insure the public availability.
A big move to end copyright law influence, in order to better protect parody and LP videos.
If they successfully argue that YouTube is a utility, then so it reddit.
And that changes everything with regards to censorship.
It effectively means that if reddit censors posts, they are infringing on freedom of speech.
Of course, I don't agree with it.
But the stack of paradoxes created by liberal thinking keeps getting larger.
Yeah, the next half century is going to be interesting when the government gets more involved with rights over the internet.
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Just not the right to force people to listen to me.
I someone holding a gun to their heads and making them click on topic links.
in a privately-run. moderated forum?
I agree. There are rights, and there are shitty things you have the right to do.
Look, is it possible, in anyone's minds here. That a world could exist such that fat-shaming is wrong, and censoring topics you don't like is wrong.
Or do we live in a world where any time there is an argument, it's always exactly one of the party's fault.
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All of you are missing the point. Reddit is not a public service. No government agency operates it, in the US or elsewhere. The only people who have any rights of any sort there are the moderators and administrators. Period. They are free to set any policy they choose, and you have no right to complain about it, because they are providing the forum out of their own interests, not yours.
They are free to set a moderation policy as loose or as restrictive as they want to, and they also can break that policy whenever they want to - the policy is a promise, not a contract, and while breaking a promise is generally a negative thing (there are exceptional circumstances when a promise cannot be upheld, but still), there is nothing anyone can do about it if they do so, other than to stop using that forum.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but the people who run a forum - any forum - can be dicks about anything whenever they want to, and the only thing to hold them back is the goodwill of the forum-goers. If they decide that the goodwill of one member or even a group of members doesn't matter, then it doesn't.
They have all the power on that forum. The only power you have is to go to another forum, or start one of your own.
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I someone holding a gun to their heads and making them click on topic links.
You accidentally.
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Maybe @xaade is the someone making them click.
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They are free to set any policy they choose, and you have no right to complain about it
The fuck?! You can't voice your opinion on the site's policy? What site does that?
Filed under: yeah, yeah, meta.d, but what other site
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you have no right to complain about it
Wrong. You can complain, but everyone can go “yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man”.
You've no right to have anyone give a damn about what you think about a private comment site's policies. Which is a good thing, actually, since it means that we can all ignore the crazies with their lunatic complaints. Governments have many bureaucrats devoted to dealing with that sort of thing just because they're not allowed to completely ignore such idiots (except when a court declares that they can; see “vexatious litigant”).
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The problem with your main premise is that if people aren't locked down to your community, they can leave and go somewhere else if somewhere else suits them better. So while you can indeed restrict things you don't like, if the purpose of your community is free discussion, and people feel like you aren't allowing that, you're putting yourself at risk. It's not about rights, it's about the ability to see what your community is at all.
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I also have the right to Discourse. The left isn't being used right now.
The Bad Jokes topic is
