@SCOTUSblog
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Student's choice book reading hour, recess, time between classes is free time.
In none of these examples is a teacher getting in front of class and forcing students to read a bible or pray.
If a kid wants to read any book (non-pornographic, etc) during their free time by themselves, go for it. But I agree that extra-curricular activities should be...extra-curricular. You know, outside of school hours...
But beyond that, we might want to look at just why the fuck these students have enough "free time" to meet like this at all. They should be learning shit...and shit.
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But beyond that, we might want to look at just why the fuck these students have enough "free time" to meet like this at all. They should be learning shit...and shit.
C'mon, you're being stupid. Some kids play kickball at recess.
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C'mon, you're being stupid. Some kids play kickball at recess.
Holy fuck man, did you forget what recess is for? And you are calling me stupid?
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Holy fuck man, did you forget what recess is for? And you are calling me stupid?
You're right. I should have said to stop trolling. It's just too obvious at this point.
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Beyond that though, why the hell does a high school have "recess"? We were done with that mostly after elementary school and completely by the end of junior high.
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Hang on, didn't we have a discussion about breaks at work around here recently?
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Goddamn you and your being logical and stuff. I hate you and your silly hat.
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And regardless of who is instigating it, you're saying that secularist can be offended by government led prayer, but I can't get offended by violations of freedom of religion. Even though both are marginal.
You can get offended all you want. Doesn't mean you're right though. You might be, but being offended bears no weight on the veracity of the statement.
Hey, here's a thought: if they are breaking the law, sue them.
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why the hell does a high school have "recess"
In recent news, child obesity rates at an all time high. Experts are wondering why children are no longer active.
The public, confounded!!!
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whoosh
I mentioned examples, was told that "yep, but that rarely happens".
Earlier, "But I shouldn't be forced to participate in a school-led prayer".
Now I understand my response should have been, "yep, but that rarely happens".
Was also told that, Christians are reacting way too exaggeratedly to these events.
Should have marginalized seculars reaction to forced-prayer.
Making this argument that forced-prayer is wrong, and forced-no-prayer is wrong doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere.
I guess compromise and tolerance only work one way.
wonders if that argument will work in court. "Yes, we are forcing these students at this school to pray, but this rarely happens. So fuck off"
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. But you have yet to show me where an individual has been told, "You cannot bring a Bible to school and read it (between classes, after lunch, during recess, etc)". That doesn't happen...
Explain how this differs meaningfully from "you are not allowed to sing Christian music during the school day".
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That article shows three examples.
How many would it take for you to have a problem with it?
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Ah, so by haggling, you have admitted it's actually a problem.
QED.
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Ah, so by haggling, you have admitted it's actually a problem.
Was that an anti-semitic hate crime?
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Oh fuck. Out of all those threads on this forum, there really wasn't a better one to dig out of its well deserved grave? Really?
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No group has ever said that a person cannot study religion, on their own time, in their own way
A new Fairfax County, Va., zoning proposal takes direct aim at the right to assemble in the privacy of one’s own home. . . .
Virginia County Takes Aim At Home Bible Studies, Freedom Of Assembly | American Center for Law and Justice
A new Fairfax County, Va., zoning proposal takes direct aim at the right to assemble in the privacy of one’s own home.. .. It limits the rights of the Fairfax residents to peaceably assemble in their own homes, to hold Bible studies there, and conduct many other lawful activities.. .. As I . . .
It limits the rights of the Fairfax residents to peaceably assemble in their own homes, to hold Bible studies there,
groups at dozens of universities — including in the California State University System, the nation’s largest — face exclusion from campus because they refuse to submit to demands that they not use their religious faith when determining the leaders of religious groups. As if it should be irrelevant whether a Christian bible study leader is actually Christian.
Do They Really Believe This Nonsense? | American Center for Law and Justice
Many years ago — early in my litigation career against campus censorship and repression — I challenged in court a policy that confidently declared, “Acts of intolerance will not be tolerated.” Think about that sentence for a moment — would the university violate its own policy against intolerance ....
Lamb’s Chapel Christian Ministry (yes, the very same Lamb’s Chapel) submitted a permit application to the Village of Greenport, New York to use Mitchell Park -- a public park -- for a community, religious event. For the past two and half years, the Village has granted permits to a variety of groups to hold various events in Mitchell Park: a children’s concert, a celebration of Greek culture, an art show, a maritime festival, a sailing competition, a fishing tournament, ballroom dancing, and so forth.
Victory: Lamb’s Chapel Wins Again | American Center for Law and Justice
Turn back the clock to just over twenty years ago, 1993 to be exact. On February 3 of that year, ACLJ Chief Counsel Jay Sekulow argued before the U.S. Supreme Court in the groundbreaking free speech case, Lamb’s Chapel v. Center Moriches School District. (Listen to the full argument here ). Four . ...
... “Denied” was checked and no explanation was provided as to why the application was denied.
... over twenty years after the U.S. Supreme Court vindicated the right of Lamb’s Chapel to engage in free speech activity in a limited public forum, Lamb’s Chapel’s right to speech in a traditional public forum is being denied.
Late last month a federal jury in North Carolina found that the University of North Carolina-Wilmington retaliated against conservative Christian professor Mike Adams when the university denied him a promotion to full professor. Rather than evaluating his work on the merits, the university denied his promotion in a process that was chock-full of deception, discrimination, and disorder.
Victory Update: Conservative Christian Professor Awarded Promotion, Back Pay | American Center for Law and Justice
Late last month a federal jury in North Carolina found that the University of North Carolina-Wilmington retaliated against conservative Christian professor Mike Adams when the university denied him a promotion to full professor. Rather than evaluating his work on the merits, the university denied ....
Instead of refusing to impose a draconian monitoring program into the free speech of churches, the IRS caved, settling the case and agreeing with the angry atheist group that churches should be targets of federal IRS monitoring.
IRS Agrees to Target and Monitor Churches, Because Angry Atheists Demanded It? | American Center for Law and Justice
If the Obama Administration’s IRS targeting of conservative groups wasn’t bizarre and draconian enough, the IRS is now planning to target, and far worse, monitor, churches. The new IRS targeting program has been instituted at the behest of the angry atheist group Freedom From Religion Foundation . ...
Her son was told by his teacher that he could not read his Bible or bring it to school. The mother talked to the teacher and discovered that this policy came from the school principal.
Victory: Elementary School Kids Can Bring Bibles to School | American Center for Law and Justice
The ACLJ helped a mother and her elementary school son who wanted to bring his Bible to school. In September 2013 the ACLJ was contacted by a mother whose son is a fifth-grader in the Los Angeles School Unified District. Her son was told by his teacher that he could not read his Bible or bring it ....
Dangerously, one of the most ardent opponents of religious freedom – and in particular Christians – in the military is now apparently the Pentagon’s newest advisor on religious freedom and tolerance in our armed forces.
Who Would Describe Christians in the Military as “Monsters who Terrorize”? | American Center for Law and Justice
Thousands of the brave men and women of our military who fight to defend the freedoms we hold dear find strength and renewal in their Christian faith. Yet, some would seek to remove their religious freedom, their freedom to freely practice their Christian faith, from the military. Dangerously, one ...
Below are the terms he used in a recent post to describe Christians in the military...
- “bloody monsters”
- “stenchful substances”
- “hatemongers”
...
The student has worn a rosary to school to symbolize and express his Christian faith, which has grown especially important to him during his continuing fight against cancer that has appeared in his throat and lungs. On multiple occasions, however, teachers and administrators told him to remove or hide his rosary.
Defending Middle School Student’s Right to Openly Wear a Rosary | American Center for Law and Justice
We recently assisted a middle school student in Texas, and his mother, who requested our help to ensure that the student is able to keep openly wearing his rosary while he is at school. The student has worn a rosary to school to symbolize and express his Christian faith, which has grown especially ...
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Well, I stand corrected since you posted links to a completely unbiased source...
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They may not be unbiased, but a law firm that has argued freedom of speech and freedom of religion cases at the Supreme Court and won seems to me to be a reputable source of information about freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
Besides, the question was "do these things happen." The fact that there are documented court cases, letters to school boards, principals, etc. indicates that they do, with sufficient frequency to keep a team of lawyers occupied dealing with them.
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I looked over the site for a few minutes, I consider them to be anything but a reputable source of information. The ACLU has also argued cases to the Supreme Court and won and I would be willing to wager that many here would not consider them to be a good source for reputable information.
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with sufficient frequency to keep a team of lawyers funded by fundamentalist religious assholes occupied dealing with them.
FTFY ;)
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http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/virginia-county-takes-aim-home-bible-studies-freedom-assemblyA new Fairfax County, Va., zoning proposal takes direct aim at the right to assemble in the privacy of one’s own home. . . .
It limits the rights of the Fairfax residents to peaceably assemble in their own homes, to hold Bible studies there,A cursory glance reveals that this is not a direct attack on religion. It is just some stupid law that was trying to be passed for some other reason. If I had to take a WAG, probably something to do with the useless "War on Drugs". No conspiracy here...
http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/do-they-really-believe-this-nonsensegroups at dozens of universities — including in the California State University System, the nation’s largest — face exclusion from campus because they refuse to submit to demands that they not use their religious faith when determining the leaders of religious groups. As if it should be irrelevant whether a Christian bible study leader is actually Christian.
Nothing but hyperbole. Stirring the pot. Utter bollocks. No persecution...
http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/victory-lambs-chapel-wins-againLamb’s Chapel Christian Ministry (yes, the very same Lamb’s Chapel) submitted a permit application to the Village of Greenport, New York to use Mitchell Park -- a public park -- for a community, religious event. For the past two and half years, the Village has granted permits to a variety of groups to hold various events in Mitchell Park: a children’s concert, a celebration of Greek culture, an art show, a maritime festival, a sailing competition, a fishing tournament, ballroom dancing, and so forth.
... “Denied” was checked and no explanation was provided as to why the application was denied.
... over twenty years after the U.S. Supreme Court vindicated the right of Lamb’s Chapel to engage in free speech activity in a limited public forum, Lamb’s Chapel’s right to speech in a traditional public forum is being denied.You would be really stretching on this one. Nevermind the fact that the original Lamb's Chapel case was utter horseshit. No, you cannot hold a religious revival meeting in a public park. Common sense and decency would tell a person that...
http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/victory-update-conservative-christian-professor-awarded-promotion-back-payLate last month a federal jury in North Carolina found that the University of North Carolina-Wilmington retaliated against conservative Christian professor Mike Adams when the university denied him a promotion to full professor. Rather than evaluating his work on the merits, the university denied his promotion in a process that was chock-full of deception, discrimination, and disorder.
No external links to even attempt to verify what they are saying. Pretty shoddy work if you ask me.
http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/irs-agrees-to-target-monitor-churches-because-angry-atheists-demanded-itInstead of refusing to impose a draconian monitoring program into the free speech of churches, the IRS caved, settling the case and agreeing with the angry atheist group that churches should be targets of federal IRS monitoring.
I don't disagree with the laws on the subject. If churches want to become bully pulpits to push political agendas, then they can comply with Federal Election Commission guidelines, including those of taxation. In fact, I would be all for taxing churches, all of them. They are nothing more than glorified social clubs wrapped up in a NFP entity. The average church uses less than 5% of their revenue for actual charitable causes so I do not see them as falling under "charitable contributions" for tax purposes.
http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/victory-elementary-school-kids-can-bring-bibles-to-schoolHer son was told by his teacher that he could not read his Bible or bring it to school. The mother talked to the teacher and discovered that this policy came from the school principal.
No link, no names, no details. Nothing where you can even attempt to verify anything they say on their site. Nothing, just "somewhere in LA". Discard.
http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/describe-christians-military-monsters-who-terrorizeDangerously, one of the most ardent opponents of religious freedom – and in particular Christians – in the military is now apparently the Pentagon’s newest advisor on religious freedom and tolerance in our armed forces.
Below are the terms he used in a recent post to describe Christians in the military...“bloody monsters”
“stenchful substances”
“hatemongers”...
A vast over-representation of the article. When he was saying those things he was referring to far right-wing groups that would exclude gays and other religions from the military. He was not referring to "mainstream christians". Now, through the entire article the guy does seem like an asshole, I will give you that. But in no way was he looking to exclude everything religious from the military. It just didn't happen.
http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/defending-middle-school-student-right-openly-wear-rosaryThe student has worn a rosary to school to symbolize and express his Christian faith, which has grown especially important to him during his continuing fight against cancer that has appeared in his throat and lungs. On multiple occasions, however, teachers and administrators told him to remove or hide his rosary.
Once again, no external links, no names, no news stories on the subject. Only, "This happened...and you will have to take our word for it. We are so great."
The entire organization is utter bollocks.
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No, you cannot hold a religious revival meeting in a public park. Common sense and decency would tell a person that.
Absolutely wrong. A public park is a "traditional public forum," and as such is subject to the strongest protection of free speech, including religious speech.
Traditional public forums include public parks, sidewalks and areas that have been traditionally open to political speech and debate. Speakers’ in these areas enjoy the strongest First Amendment protections. In traditional public forums, the government may not discriminate against speakers based on their views. This is called “viewpoint discrimination.” The government may, however, subject speech to reasonable, content-neutral restrictions on its time, place, and manner. When considering government restrictions of speech in traditional public forums, courts use “strict scrutiny.” Under strict scrutiny, restrictions are allowed only if they serve a compelling state interest and are narrowly tailored to meet the needs of that interest. [Emphasis added.]
If other community groups or individuals — Boy Scouts, Kiwanis Club, a city council candidate, whatever — are allowed to hold gatherings in a park, religious organizations or individuals must be also be granted access. Reasonable time, place and manner restrictions may be imposed, but they must be imposed evenhandedly on religious and secular gatherings. "The State may also enforce regulations of the time, place, and manner of expression which are content-neutral, are narrowly tailored to serve a significant government interest, and leave open ample alternative channels of communication." Perry Education Assn. v. Perry Local Educators' Assn., 460 U. S. 45 (1983) [emphasis added]. The government cannot impose more stringent time, place and manner restrictions on, much less ban, a gathering because it is religious in character than they would on a similar non-religious gathering.
Kunz v. New York, 340 U.S. 290 (1951) has been interpreted as prohibiting the prior prohibition of gatherings even when illegal activity is anticipated. IANAL, and I can't find the relevant case at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I remember a case in which SCOTUS decided that officials cannot prohibit a KKK rally (which one would hope even the most ardent freedom-from-religion zealot would agree is more offensive than any peaceful religious gathering), even when there is a reasonable likelihood of counter-demonstrations and the possibility of disorderly conduct. The city may, of course, arrest, try and punish anyone who engages in illegal activity at the gathering, but they cannot impose a prior restraint on the gathering because of the nature of the speech that will occur there, and cannot even require the organization to pay additional fees for police presence to keep the peace. "The county offers only one justification for this ordinance: raising revenue for police services. While this undoubtedly is an important government responsibility, it does not justify a content-based permit fee." Forsyth County v. The Nationalist Movement, 505 U. S. 123 (1992)
Note: The government may restrict or ban gatherings on public property that is a limited public forum or non-public forum without unconstitutionally violating freedom of speech, but again it must do so without regard to the content of the speech to take place in the gathering.
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I will come back to this later, but out of all of those you only found one of them you could object to my review of their hyperbole?
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I really don't want to get into an argument with you, since it just makes me angry and is very unlikely to change either of our views on the matter.
Are they telling only their side of the events? Yeah, probably. Are they hyperbolizing (Is that a word? If not, I just made it one.) the events? Maybe.
However, if you really want me to find fault with your statements, here are a few more.
>http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/victory-update-conservative-christian-professor-awarded-promotion-back-pay
Late last month a federal jury in North Carolina found that the University of North Carolina-Wilmington retaliated against conservative Christian professor Mike Adams when the university denied him a promotion to full professor. Rather than evaluating his work on the merits, the university denied his promotion in a process that was chock-full of deception, discrimination, and disorder.No external links to even attempt to verify what they are saying.
True, there were no external links in either of the two pages on that subject that I looked at this morning. (IIRC, there's a third I didn't bother looking for.) However, a quick google of the parties involved did turn up evidence from a third-party source. You'll probably discount the report by Fox News, but is the Washington Times good enough for you?
@Polygeekery said:http://aclj.org/free-speech-2/do-they-really-believe-this-nonsense groups at dozens of universities — including in the California State University System, the nation’s largest — face exclusion from campus because they refuse to submit to demands that they not use their religious faith when determining the leaders of religious groups. As if it should be irrelevant whether a Christian bible study leader is actually Christian.
Nothing but hyperbole. Stirring the pot. Utter bollocks. No persecution..
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/us/colleges-and-evangelicals-collide-on-bias-policy.html?_r=0...the college’s demand that any student, regardless of his or her religious beliefs, should be able to run for election as a leader of any group, including the Christian association.
SCOTUS took the other (wrong, IMHO) side on this one in Christian Legal Society v. Martinez.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-18/campus-diversity-puts-religion-on-probation
The court ruled that although a state university can’t ban a group from campus for not agreeing to an all-comers policy, the school doesn’t have to give it privileges such as free access to rooms.It may not matter much in practice, since groups are unlikely to elect to their leadership people who disagree with the principles on which the group is based, but
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-18/campus-diversity-puts-religion-on-probation
Only groups that sign a pledge to accept all students as members and -- the key provision -- as officers, without any restrictions on their beliefs, will be certified as official organizations able to use rooms for free, identify themselves with the school name, participate in recruitment events outside the designated “free speech zone” or (although this is rare for religious groups) receive funding from student fees.
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If [the idea that social dynamics will prevent leaders who do not hold the beliefs of the group from being elected is] true, however, the policy is a gratuitous insult, forcing groups to deny their core values and sign symbolic statements they don’t really believe.No link, no names, no details.
It was resolved amicably by a letter to the principal. What would you have them link to? Would you have them publish the name and address of the boy, so he can be subjected to harassment by anti-religion zealots? I don't think so.This happened to my own daughter. It's been about 10 years, so the details are a little fuzzy in my memory. My daughter (I think; my memory is fuzzy enough that it might have been my son) was told she couldn't read her Bible during free reading time. I got some information on students' freedom of religion rights and said to the teacher and/or principal, "You can't do that." They said, "You're right; she can read her Bible." End of the matter. No news story, no lawyers involved, nothing to prove it happened, but it did.
You want details? I think my daughter (or son) was in middle school at the time, so it would have been Leonard Hermann Intermediate School, 5955 Blossom Avenue, San Jose, CA 95123. However, she (or he) might still have been in elementary school, in which case it would have been Earl Frost Elementary School, 530 Gettysburg Drive, San Jose, CA 95123. I don't remember the name of the teacher or principal involved, and I doubt the school has a written record of the incident, since it was resolved so informally.
The point is that these things happen. People are told that they cannot exercise freedom of religion on their own time. I don't know how widespread it is, but it does happen.
I consider them to be anything but a reputable source of information. The ACLU has also argued cases to the Supreme Court and won and I would be willing to wager that many here would not consider them to be a good source for reputable information.
I would often disagree with the opinions expressed by the ACLU (they seem to be great champions of the Establishment Clause, but quite willing to trample the Free Exercise Clause in the process), but I would consider them a reputable source of information that a particular incident of infringement (or alleged infringement) occurred.
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Card Games FTW!:
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fairly sure only the suicide part is a one-way-ticket-to-hell, because there's an opt-out of the others
I don't believe that. Suicide is also forgivable. The act of forgiveness isn't only retroactive, it's also proactive, and it's based on a relationship, not a bow-pray-cry routine checkbox.
isn't amputation due to an accident just as much of a mutilation
And accidentally falling off a ladder is suicide?
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> fairly sure only the suicide part is a one-way-ticket-to-hell, because there's an opt-out of the others
I don't believe that. Suicide is also forgivable.
Depends on which religion. Here's four where it's not:
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Ok....
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I'm sorry, does that mean I'm supposed to believe it?
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Are you disagreeing with your God?
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Why do you think he might?
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Do you want me to explain it to you, or do you want to just entrap me?
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There does seem to be a disagreement between
as with other Abrahamic religions, views suicide as one of the greatest sins
andI don't believe that. Suicide is also forgivable
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There does seem to be a disagreement
Well, I seem to remember Christianity having a notion of "forgivable" and "unforgivable" sins. So if you wank under the sheets you're a sinner, but you may still redeem yourself after death, but if you're literally Hitler, then it's fire and brimstone for you.
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if you're literally Hitler, then it's fire and brimstone for you.
Not exactly true.
A roman soldier would have been literally Hitler to the Jews. At least they acted like it.
Yet, Jesus healed the friend of the soldier because the soldier believed he could.
Matthew was a tax collector, another kind of "sinner" for the period of time.
Mary was an adulteress. (not his mother, the other Mary)
The woman that helped the Jews in Jericho was a prostitute.
The Bible is full of stories of "sinners" following God and God helping "sinners".
Paul murdered members of the early church before his conversion.... another Hitler of the times.
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And this is all why I'm in the camp of "God can go f*** himself" because he certainly isn't the benevolent dictator he is made out to be.
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Are you disagreeing with your God?
xaade would go to hell just 'cause god doesn't want to argue with him for all eternity.
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because he certainly isn't the benevolent dictator he is made out to be.
Have you even glanced at the Old Testament? Benevolent doesn't even begin to appear. Smite this, smite that, smite the other....
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reads the new posts in the thread
FWP: Can't decide between
and 
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Have you even glanced at the Old Testament? Benevolent doesn't even begin to appear. Smite this, smite that, smite the other....
And that is not to even mention how God always wants people to kill their family members for no other reason than to prove their faith.
Or the Book of Job, which is just fucked up beyond all belief, where God gets in a dick measuring contest with Satan and they wreck Job's life in order to prove his faith.
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Or the Book of Job
Satan: Dude, you suck.
Yahweh: Oh yeah? Watch this! I kill this guy's family, then I give him a terrible disease, and he's still shitting himself from joy when I talk to him! Or is that the disease....
Satan: Ummm.... yeah... listen man, I'm outta here, I... I left something on the stove... yeah...
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Hey, look at me, I'm God and I'm perfect and I know everything that's ever going to happen.
Hey, Adam and Eve. Stop doing that thing that I knew you were going to do. That's it, I'm angry now. Fuck off out of this garden.
Wow, this perfect world I made is pretty shitty, like I always knew it would be. Better flood it and start again with a severely depleted breeding stock of everything so all animals are inbred. Lucky there's no such thing as evolution, otherwise their descendants would get pretty weird
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That doesn't make sense as non-believers are much less like to end up in the back of a police car.
Try again.
EDIT: @LorenPechtel, is that you?
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@Bort Yup, me.
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I find that offensive!
What kind of clown uses an
.orgdomain for a law enforcement site?
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What kind of clown uses an .org domain for a law enforcement site?
keystonecops.orgmaybe?
Religious views on suicide - Wikipedia
