Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for
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@Fox Scarcity is a thing of the past, but yes I would imagine it would be expensive and I don't think I could have the powers of apocalypse unless the laws of physics change.
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@Groaner said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
@djls45 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
Then there are the fundamentalist branches of Mormonism who read their scriptures that state that polygamy is required to enter the "celestial" heaven (the highest, above the "terrestrial" heaven and the "telestial" heaven [only ex-Mormons and evil despots like Hitler are condemned to Hell]) and follow them still today.
Separate but equal heavens?
Not quite. The celestial heaven is for "Temple" Mormons, the terrestrial heaven is for good Mormons who weren't married in the Temple, the telestial heaven is for good people who were never Mormons, and Hell is for people like Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot and ex-Mormons who left the church and never "repented" and came back.
But it doesn't really matter if you didn't get a "Temple" marriage or even if you didn't join the church in the first place: Your friends and family who are Mormon can do these on your behalf after you die by performing the rituals for you.
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@lucas1 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
Scarcity is a thing of the past
Not to the point that there is no cost to anything. There are still limitations to supply. Though, admittedly, some of those limitations are fabricated. *cough*diamonds*cough*
@lucas1 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
but yes I would imagine it would be expensive and I don't think I could have the powers of apocalypse unless the laws of physics change.
Oh, no, Apocalypse's powers are well out of reach still, I think. But immortality in the sense that old age/deadly illness is a non-issue is pretty damned close, comparatively.
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@djls45 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
Hell is for people like Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot and ex-Mormons who left the church and never "repented" and came back.
The fact that those two groups of people are lumped together still astonishes me.
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@lolwhat said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
@Groaner said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
meteors impacting your decision-making
Once again, you have lived up to your name. Appulse.
I'm saddened that nobody has yet picked up on the other one in this thread. Perhaps there aren't enough biology nerds in here.
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@Groaner said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
Perhaps there aren't enough biology nerds in here.
This is what I get for not reading the entire thread before starting to post in it.
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@Groaner said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
crispr.
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@Fox If by pretty damn close you mean not within our lifetime, I suppose you are right.
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@Fox said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
@lucas1 Probably within the next two or three decades, barring a Trump presidency and ensuing nuclear apocalypse.
One of my friends suggested that the Fallout universe could be a plausible outcome of such a presidency; first, social regression back to the 1950's, then nuclear war with China.
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@Fox said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
The fact that those two groups of people are lumped together still astonishes me.
Scientology has the same beliefs.
(Not that I'm saying Scientology is on-par with Mormonism. For one thing, Mormons aren't insane.)
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@kt_ said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
There's this one claim I have a trouble researching and I thought you American guys could shed some light to it.
Parents who imagine that a man named Joseph Smith was led to a set of buried golden tablets have married their underage βMormonβ daughters to favored uncles and brothers-in-law, who sometimes have older wives already.
What is Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Alex?
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@Dragoon CRISPR, induced stem cells, 3D-printing tissues, and other ways of modifying the human body at a cellular or molecular level with high levels of accuracy are well within our grasp. Many of them are probably less than a decade from being viable for medical use. Some of them just need someone to get in a lab for a decade or two and refine the processes involved. Unless you're pretty old, you will probably live to see the end of some very serious diseases.
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@blakeyrat said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
Mormons aren't insane
Lets compared Scientology and Mormonism when you leave.
- Mormonism - if you try to leave everyone in your family doesn't talk to you
- Scientology - if you try to leave everyone in your family doesn't talk to you and you have assholes following you around everywhere and watching you for the rest of your life.
Yes I suppose they aren't the same.
EDIT: Bonus round lets compare Islam to MS-13
- MS-13 - takes a beating to join (or the choice of a gang rape if you are a young lady) and if you try to leave you will be killed by your gang members.
- Islam - takes only saying "I accept islam" if you try to leave you will be killed by your family members.
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@lucas1 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
MormonFairly any religionism - if you try to leave everyone in your family doesn't talk to youI actually haven't seen this in Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints-ism. Actually, I have stories from my grandma where the reverse was true.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
@lucas1 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
MormonFairly any religionism - if you try to leave everyone in your family doesn't talk to youI actually haven't seen this in Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints-ism. Actually, I have stories from my grandma where the reverse was true.
I have a story from my father where it was. When his father left their family, the local mormons pretty much pretended they didn't exist for the next ten years. And then they came back around trying to get him to join.
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@Fox said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
barring a Trump presidency and ensuing nuclear apocalypse.
Shut up, you! Hormesis rules! Think of it--literally--as evolution in action!
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@Fox said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
The fact that those two groups of people are lumped together still astonishes me.
It's not unique or anything. Islam's not big on apostasy either.
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@FrostCat I know. The fact that those two groups are lumped together in any religion still astonishes me. That alone should be a big red flag that there's afoot.
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@Fox What? How else are we gonna get all the cool mutations
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@Tsaukpaetra There are always exceptions. Both cults are less than a couple of hundreds of years old and have obvious falsified claims that believers don't wish to take any notice of.
The Bible can dis-credited in similar ways (so can the Quran since it was written years after Mohamed's death), I've never read the Torah so I don't anything about it.
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@FrostCat The old fashioned way! Mad science on an individual level. GMO spiders and such.
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Islam's not big on apostasy either.
It isn't? Are you fucking kidding me?
Go to pakkistan and say you are an atheist ... you are going to get hacked to death mate.
EDIT: It was Bangladesh (sorry wrong country ... point still stands). I forget they kill women for wanting to learn how to read and write.
It is also illegal in Saudi Arabia and most of the Middle East. They are literally killing students for those things right now.
Irreligion in Saudi Arabia is difficult to measure as it is illegal to leave the Islamic faith in the country
This is the most prominent example:
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@lucas1 That's what he said. Although foreigners don't always get hacked to death for it. They're really bad about applying the laws equally to foreigners.
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@Fox said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
Many of them are probably less than a decade from being viable for medical use.
IIRC, I was reading somewhere fairly recently about using gene therapy techniques in trials. Something to do with using it to fix some problem with eyes, on the grounds that there's far fewer immune cells around? Not yet ready for a normal clinic, but not stupidly far off. OTOH, tinkering with the immune system is dangerous. Very easy to kill the patient if you get it wrong.
Overall, at the low level we've got a pretty good idea about what's going on; we've made big advances on understanding what the genome actually does. But what it does is chemistry. Linking that to diseases⦠not trivial at all. And not all diseases are really genetic problems, even after you discount the ones caused by infectious agents.
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@Fox Depends whether the infidels are giving them money or not I suppose.
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@lucas1 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
I've never read the Torah so I don't anything about it.
AIUI, if you've read the Old Testament of the Bible, you'll have read a fair chunk of the Torah in translation.
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@Fox Yeah, 20 years ago protein mapping was all the rage and finding the cure for all sorts of diseases. They have made some remarkable progress but are still 20 years away from doing what they set out to do.
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@dkf said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
Very easy to kill the patient if you get it wrong.
Also, yes. That's why these things are tested thoroughly on cell cultures and such.
@dkf said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
Overall, at the low level we've got a pretty good idea about what's going on; we've made big advances on understanding what the genome actually does. But what it does is chemistry. Linking that to diseases⦠not trivial at all. And not all diseases are really genetic problems, even after you discount the ones caused by infectious agents.
Most diseases that deal with genetics could, potentially, be cured by breaking the chain of events at the genetic level, though. If you have a virus that causes AIDS, for example, that's causing a genetic change that then causes the symptoms of AIDS. If you reverse the genetic change, you've stopped the symptoms and cured AIDS. That's the whole idea with these gene therapies.
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@lucas1 Basically, yes.
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@Fox That isn't how AIDS works, nor how gene therapy is attempting to combat it.
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@dkf I read quite a bit, I find most of these so called holy books hard going. I have a King James Bible and a Quran (in English) so I knew first hand what I was arguing about. I find them pretty hard going to read tbh and have had a hard time finishing either.
I was brought up in a Catholic School so I know a fair bit of the bible anyway.
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@Dragoon said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
That isn't how AIDS works, nor how gene therapy is attempting to combat it.
Actually, yes, it is, and yes, it is. Simplified, sure, but still correct.
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@Fox Pleas show me the paper where they are reversing a genetic change made by the AIDS virus as a means of combating it.
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@Fox I stand corrected. I had only seen the gene therapy to alter the receptors so that AIDS could not longer infect the cell at all (there are many variations on this, but all I had seen were designed around preventing the receptor from functioning).
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@Dragoon It's actually pretty popular: another lab's trying the same thing.
It's still not quite perfected yet, though.
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@Fox Yeah, it is the same problem they had with trying to adjust the receptors, AIDS is extremely adaptable.
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@lucas1 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
I've never read the Torah so I don't anything about it.
The Torah is a.k.a. the Pentateuch. The Tanakh, or TNK for Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim, is the Christian Old Testament. Modern Judaism also includes the traditions set down through the ages by myriads of rabbis explaining what the Tanakh meant, and then what those rabbis meant, and then what those rabbis meant, etc. I believe that the Ketuvim also includes the Apocryphal OT books (Judith, Maccabbees, Ecclesiasticus, etc.).
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@djls45 I don't know anything about that so that why I didn't comment about it.
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@djls45 That's pretty much the opposite of what he says.
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@lucas1 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
@dkf I read quite a bit, I find most of these so called holy books hard going. I have a King James Bible and a Quran (in English) so I knew first hand what I was arguing about. I find them pretty hard going to read tbh and have had a hard time finishing either.
I was brought up in a Catholic School so I know a fair bit of the bible anyway.
You should get one that is designed for easy reading. There is an edition of the ESV called the Reader's Bible that might be easier to understand.
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@djls45 I don't need one for easy reading they are just both boring as fuck.
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@masonwheeler said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
@djls45 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
This is partly why auto-immune diseases are so hard to treat; the body either will "reject" itself at the drop of a hat or will allow anything at all with no filter controls.
This is the thing I've always wondered about. We know how to
INSERT
a new entry into the body's immune database: vaccination. It's a well-understood technology that's been tremendously successful since its inception. How is it that we don't know how toDELETE
one?because we don't really know how to insert, we scare the body threatening it and it inserts by itself.
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@Dragoon There was one I saw some time ago where they actually managed to grant cells immunity to HIV after removing the virus, though I forget exactly how (something about removing the WBC's from the body, treating them, and then reintroducing them to the body, if I recall), and google's not being helpful in finding it.
Anyway, I'm pretty hopeful about the CRISPR/Cas9 treatment. It looks like from there, all they need to do is ensure that the virus definitely gets recycled completely after being excised from the strand, perhaps by loading the cell up on exonucleases during cleavage or something.
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@lucas1 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
they are just both boring as fuck.
QFT
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@djls45 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
You should get one that is designed for easy reading
I don't even read books about things I'm interested anymore. You're expecting me to read a book about rape, murder, and incest? And the book isn't written by George R. R. Martin?
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You're expecting me to read a book about rape, murder, and incest?
Where did you think George R.R. Martin got half of his story plots ...
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@lucas1 said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
You're expecting me to read a book about rape, murder, and incest?
Where did you think George R.R. Martin got half of his story plots ...
His imagination? I'm curious where you think the other half came from.
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@Fox said in Hospitals don't heal? And other questions about certain claims I can't find evidence for:
Most diseases that deal with genetics could, potentially, be cured by breaking the chain of events at the genetic level, though. If you have a virus that causes AIDS, for example, that's causing a genetic change that then causes the symptoms of AIDS. If you reverse the genetic change, you've stopped the symptoms and cured AIDS. That's the whole idea with these gene therapies.
Yes, but it's rather enormously hard. For many diseases of interest, what you've actually got to do is recalibrate the balance of activation levels of a whole network of genes. Even just doing this in e coli bacteria (just about the most studied organism ever, and much more amenable to gene editing than mammalian cells) is much more difficult. Also, inserting a single gene is pretty easy, but inserting many of them is not. Building the tools to deploy large insertions is difficult, and you need to tune the activation levels of the promoters and ribosome binding sites to make things work well, which is computationally awful (and tricky in the lab too).
Everything is more complicated in larger organisms, as the environment (both chemical and physical) matters so much more. Even just going from e coli to a single-celled eukaryote is non-trivial, as eukaryotes have more steps between the initial DNA transcription and the final protein, as well as the potential for doing things in intra-cellular compartments with varying chemical conditions.