Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense
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@cdosrun1 said in What are the pros/cons to upgrading to Windows 10?:
Wifi Sense doesn't share your networks by default.
And now it's disabled:
Microsoft didn’t mention the privacy and security concerns raised by Wi-Fi Sense, saying only that the feature was being removed because it was expensive to maintain and that few Windows 10 users were taking advantage of it.
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@boomzilla It frankly wasn't very useful. Even if you had permissions for it wide-open.
This does not surprise me.
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@blakeyrat It's one of those things that you can't believe it made it past getting proposed.
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Quoted from the article:
Microsoft’s solution for those concerned required users to change the name (a.k.a. “SSID“) of their Wi-Fi network to include the text “_optout” somewhere in the network name (for example, “oldnetworknamehere_optout”).
Just a classic example of MS not understanding their users I guess?
I can just hear the conversations now:
What's the wireless name?
Oh, it's bobjones_optout
Bob... Jahones... Wait, why did you name the internet after a fish?
Nevermind that, just don't click on the one.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
few Windows 10 users were taking advantage of it.
Gee, I wonder why.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
It frankly wasn't very useful. Even if you had permissions for it wide-open.
Now if we could only get them to disable the auto-reboot without warning feature.
@boomzilla said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
It's one of those things that you can't believe it made it past getting proposed.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
It frankly wasn't very useful.
@boomzilla said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
It's one of those things that you can't believe it made it past getting proposed.
The primary use case was for people who wanted to share their network but still encrypt it (so a malicious user can't sniff other users' traffic), and for people who wanted to use that sort of network. Places with free Wi-Fi, like airports, coffee shops, etc., might want to take advantage of it, although generally they'd just post a sign with the SSID and password.
The default was off, so it wasn't sharing networks without permission. I can see how very few people would've wanted or needed to take advantage of it, but it's not really as bad an idea as it sounds.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
The primary use case was for people who wanted to share their network but still encrypt it (so a malicious user can't sniff other users' traffic), and for people who wanted to use that sort of network.
I thought that was what a password was invented for. No, this idea to share network credentials with your contact list is just awful.
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@anotherusername The PROBLEM it solves is legit-- nobody's denying that; the SOLUTION is simply not very good.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
the SOLUTION is simply not very good.
Considering the competing solution is 'a sign' it better be really good. Sign technology is very advanced.
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@AyGeePlus said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Sign technology is very advanced.
As a person who worked a retail job at a place with VERY PROMINENT restroom signs, and yet still got asked about 46 times a day where the restrooms were, I disagree.
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@boomzilla ...yes and then you need to share the password with people so they can use the network, which is what WiFi Sense was supposed to do. Automatically. It's like the alternative to an open Wi-Fi node, but it's encrypted so the users can't see each other's traffic.
The problem is, that's pretty easy to solve with a sign, or even just SSID =
password is "free wifi"
, password =free wifi
.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
The problem is, that's pretty easy to solve with a sign, or even just SSID = password is "free wifi", password = free wifi.
Yes. Wifi sense was a ridiculous solution to the problem.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
VERY PROMINENT restroom signs, and yet still got asked about 46 times a day where the restrooms were,
If you beamed the knowledge directly into people's brains they would still ask you if the brain beam was to be trusted. Or to confirm the brain beam. Or if you have restrooms.
Reading technology is not widely implemented.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
The default was off, so it wasn't sharing networks without permission
You got me to fire up a whole new VM just to double-check this assertion.
Using the latest pre-built image from MS at the time of posting (en_windows_10_multiple_editions_x64_dvd_6846432.iso) for consumers, this is what "default" meant during OOBE, and I specifically went through the Customize/Advanced Settings route to see it:https://what.thedailywtf.com/uploads/files/1464035455800-win10-oobe.mp4
(One of those should embed I hope)
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@AyGeePlus said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
If you beamed the knowledge directly into people's brains
Telepathy isn't a thing here, but you could hire Mexicans to sit on people's shoulders and tell them about the wifi password.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
You got me to fire up a whole new VM just to double-check this assertion.
Using the latest pre-built image from MS at the time of posting (en_windows_10_multiple_editions_x64_dvd_6846432.iso) for consumers, this is what "default" meant during OOBE, and I specifically went through the Customize/Advanced Settings route to see it:That's the default for connecting to shared networks, which is different than the default for sharing networks you connect to. Here's a link with a screenshot of the option I'm talking about:
Basically, leaving that option turned on allows you to connect to networks that other people have shared, but it still doesn't share your networks unless you turn on the "Share" option under the connection's settings, and that defaults to off.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
doesn't share your networks unless you turn on the "Share" option under the connection's settings, and that defaults to off.
Ah. Pedantic verbiage saves the day again.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
doesn't share your networks unless you turn on the "Share" option under the connection's settings, and that defaults to off.
Ah. Pedantic verbiage saves the day again.
I don't see what's pedantic about this. It's the difference between accepting a share of a sandwich and offering a share of a sandwich.
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@Rhywden said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
It's the difference between accepting a share of a sandwich and offering a share of a sandwich.
Yes, that's the actual difference symbolically. However, there apparently needed to be a whole article with explanatory screenshot telling you the good news!
Can you guess how many times people have asked me "Do I need to check the box that says 'show password'" when connecting to a wifi network, and still check it anyways despite being told flat out "no"?
People are dumb and don't want to think. The fact that this is now a "default no" doesn't change that people will have already "opted in" by default when the setting wasn't default to no.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
@Rhywden said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
It's the difference between accepting a share of a sandwich and offering a share of a sandwich.
Yes, that's the actual difference symbolically. However, there apparently needed to be a whole article with explanatory screenshot telling you the good news!
Can you guess how many times people have asked me "Do I need to check the box that says 'show password'" when connecting to a wifi network, and still check it anyways despite being told flat out "no"?
People are dumb and don't want to think. The fact that this is now a "default no" doesn't change that people will have already "opted in" by default when the setting wasn't default to no.
I'm not quite sure how "there needed to be an article" and "people are dumb" are contradictory in any way?
Also, you seem to be advocating a more PlaySkool approach to any OS, with everything difficult to understand hidden away.
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@Rhywden said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
I'm not quite sure how "there needed to be an article" and "people are dumb" are contradictory in any way?
I'm not sure I made that assertion.
@Rhywden said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Also, you seem to be advocating a more PlaySkool approach to any OS, with everything difficult to understand hidden away.
Maybe that's what Windows 10 was supposed to be, Windows For People, where We decide what's best for you, and you might get a few choices (like, the ability to participate in uncompensated consumer research through our Sonic Fast Rings!), but for the most part, you shouldn't worry or know about all the things we watch you do, and isn't it nice that we're paying attention to whistleblowers? We're so awesome!
Statistically speaking, maybe that might be a good thing, after all, Apple has done a quite good job of it after all. Maybe it's the future!
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
this is now a "default no" doesn't change that people will have already "opted in" by default when the setting wasn't default to no
As far as I know, the default for that option was always no.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Windows For People, where We decide what's best for you
Time to reboot, citizen.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
As far as I know, the default for that option was always no.
... Then.... What was the point of the article?
Oh now I get it. It's one of those "Haha MS is dumb, not enough tomatoes have been thrown at them lately so lets talk about things that haven't changed in 'forever' as if it's a new and previously unknown thing!" articles. Gotcha.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
... Then.... What was the point of the article?
M$ admitted that no one liked it and are officially stopping support for it.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
M$ admitted that no one liked it and are officially stopping support for it.
Yet a majority of the thread is about sharing wifi passwords with others and why that can sometimes be bad.
The article did a great job, I'll say...
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@Tsaukpaetra A bunch of people heard a rumor that WiFi Sense was sharing their Wi-Fi passwords and freaked the fuck out, not realizing that its default behavior is just getting free wifi connections and that it only shares the passwords to your connections if you explicitly tell it to.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
bunch of people heard a rumor
@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
and freaked the fuck out
Yeah, that's pretty normal I guess.
Fun fact: My WiFi password is actually my globally unique username, but you'd have to know where I live to take advantage of that fact...
Filed under: Now to see if that honeypot has fresh honey for the mystery visitors...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
M$ admitted that no one liked it and are officially stopping support for it.
Yet a majority of the thread is about sharing wifi passwords with others and why that can sometimes be bad.
The article did a great job, I'll say...Sorry, if you were trying to make a point it 'd right over me. Or were you really surprised that people here talked about what was interesting to them about something in the article?
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
, if you were trying to make a point
Nope! Just trying to keep up the discussion.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
but you'd have to know where I live to take advantage of that fact...
You're kind of easy to Google out.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
The primary use case was for people who wanted to share their network but still encrypt it (so a malicious user can't sniff other users' traffic), and for people who wanted to use that sort of network. Places with free Wi-Fi, like airports, coffee shops, etc., might want to take advantage of it, although generally they'd just post a sign with the SSID and password.
Then again even my cheap cheap NetGear router have option to create guest network login easily, whether you not only given control on whether those "guests" can see each other (your non-guest can see each other regardless of this configuration), your router's web admin interface is not exposed to the "guests". So I see not much value in such form.
The actual use I can think of is that, occasionally when your friends visit your home, you can share the WiFi to these "selected users" without letting them to know the password. (The password is "shared", but those people of those devices cannot view the password themselves)
This feature is something that I actually like, although it would be better if I can select which group of contact can get access to my network.
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@cheong said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
those people of those devices cannot view the password themselves
You sure about that? Do they disable password display in the network properties dialog?
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@sloosecannon said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
@cheong said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
those people of those devices cannot view the password themselves
You sure about that? Do they disable password display in the network properties dialog?
On WinPhone, it does not show the password box on network settings. You're just given the option to configure whether to "Connect automatically", and "Use Random hardware Address".
Not used this feature on Win10, so have no idea on whether the settings would be the same there, but I assume it should be.
I guess it's too difficult to bar people from sniffing the password on their own Windows Desktop, hence the "... it was expensive to maintain ..." part in statement.
From the second paragraph in the second section in this article, it seems the password is not revealed there as well.
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@cheong said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
@sloosecannon said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
@cheong said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
those people of those devices cannot view the password themselves
You sure about that? Do they disable password display in the network properties dialog?
On WinPhone, it does not show the password box on network settings. You're just given the option to configure whether to "Connect automatically", and "Use Random hardware Address".
Not used this feature on Win10, so have no idea on whether the settings would be the same there, but I assume it should be.
I guess it's too difficult to bar people from sniffing the password on their own Windows Desktop, hence the "... it was expensive to maintain ..." part in statement.
Oh, right, Windows Phone would probably be different. I don't think they'd disable it for Windows on the desktop though.....
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@cheong said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Then again even my cheap cheap NetGear router have option to create guest network login easily, whether you not only given control on whether those "guests" can see each other (your non-guest can see each other regardless of this configuration), your router's web admin interface is not exposed to the "guests". So I see not much value in such form.
If there's not actually a password on the "guest" network, the guests can see each other quite easily if their NIC works in promiscuous mode. They just can't pass messages to each other via the router. If there is a password, you're in the same situation as before: you have to give them the password somehow.
The actual use I can think of is that, occasionally when your friends visit your home, you can share the WiFi to these "selected users" without letting them to know the password. (The password is "shared", but those people of those devices cannot view the password themselves)
That's actually what WPS is for. You can allow someone to connect without giving them the actual password. It does have its drawbacks, though...
@sloosecannon said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Oh, right, Windows Phone would probably be different.
Walled garden? Apple got around it by the fact that you need to root your device and install third-party apps to get at the stored passwords on your device.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Walled garden? Apple got around it by the fact that you need to root your device and install third-party apps to get at the stored passwords on your device.
Yeah same with Android too. Probably also figured it's easier to steal a phone than a laptop/desktop.
I'm actually working on an app to show those since all the ones on the play store are ad-laden crapware from the Gingerbread era....
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@fbmac said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
You're kind of easy to Google out.
Always open to visitors!
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
@cheong said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Then again even my cheap cheap NetGear router have option to create guest network login easily, whether you not only given control on whether those "guests" can see each other (your non-guest can see each other regardless of this configuration), your router's web admin interface is not exposed to the "guests". So I see not much value in such form.
If there's not actually a password on the "guest" network, the guests can see each other quite easily if their NIC works in promiscuous mode. They just can't pass messages to each other via the router. If there is a password, you're in the same situation as before: you have to give them the password somehow.
When you try to "see the other in promiscuous mode", it won't be able to see the encrypted packet protected by WiFi encryption you choose. The router actually barred any device that connects to the "guest network" to send packets via the WiFi connection to other device on network, including devices that connects through physical LAN.
That's the whole value of "guest network" feature.
The actual use I can think of is that, occasionally when your friends visit your home, you can share the WiFi to these "selected users" without letting them to know the password. (The password is "shared", but those people of those devices cannot view the password themselves)
That's actually what WPS is for. You can allow someone to connect without giving them the actual password. You need physical access to the router to push the WPS button, so it's secure.
Indeed. Except when you have a lot of friends visit your home, you'll have them line up to "press the button" one by one. (It's something I don't use, but I assume similar to bluetooth device or wireless keyboard/mouse pair up)
@sloosecannon said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Oh, right, Windows Phone would probably be different.
Walled garden? Apple got around it by the fact that you need to root your device and install third-party apps to get at the stored passwords on your device.
That is a real concern. I think it could be the reason that Microsoft choose to cut the feature in the end.
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@sloosecannon said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
I'm actually working on an app to show those since all the ones on the play store are ad-laden crapware from the Gingerbread era....
handy app from Froyo, still works in 5.1.
And bonus: no ads!
Edit: aaaand now you all have proof that my Wi-Fi passwords are all the same...
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@cheong said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
it won't be able to see the encrypted packet protected by WiFi encryption you choose.
Then it does have a password. I covered that.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
@cheong said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
it won't be able to see the encrypted packet protected by WiFi encryption you choose.
Then it does have a password. I covered that.
Okay, I missread that part. The point is, I can give access to WiFi to those people without worry them be able to access my "internal network", without having to buy additional wireless router to cut the network segment.
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
@AyGeePlus said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Sign technology is very advanced.
As a person who worked a retail job at a place with VERY PROMINENT restroom signs, and yet still got asked about 46 times a day where the restrooms were, I disagree.
He said "sign technology" - and that's arguably true. "Sign reading technology" (or, perhaps, "noticing" or "understanding") still has a lot to catch up, though.
EDIT: Bah, should have known someone already made a similar joke.
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The other problem was that you couldn't really pick who to share with. I wouldn't really have a problem with sharing the keys with a few select people (let's say family and so on). But IIRC you could only select to share the access with Skype/Outlook-contacts, or even Facebook friends. None of those lists are exactly limited to the group of people I'd be OK sharing Wifi-passwords with.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft comes to senses, disables Wifi Sense:
Telepathy isn't a thing here, but you could hire Mexicans to sit on people's shoulders and tell them about the wifi password.
I guess they really are taking all the good jobs.